is chainer's edict gonna re-define type 2?

Beyond Dominia: The Type Two Magic Mill: is chainer's edict gonna re-define type 2?

By shadetree on Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 09:45 pm:

i'm just thinkin that this edict is gonna hurt the biggest decks right now, or make them change quite a bit. seems this main deck card will demolish 3 of the top decks right now 'tog, tings, and enforcer, not to name a few others as well. what kind of changes will be made to these decks now ya think?

By Vise the Stompy on Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 09:55 pm:

While I doubt it will completly redfine type 2, it will be one of the most played cards in type 2.Chainer's edict is on of the best black creature kill spells that have come out in a long time. While it lack the Diabolic Edict instant speed, it definatly makes up for it in its ability to be recas giving some good card advantage.

By Mike STT on Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 10:51 pm:

GOOD?YES, REDEFINING?NO Its a good card but im not gonna metgame against it

By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 10:03 am:

Mike: some decks will have to metagame against, particularly the Enforcer deck that's been popular lately. Being pro-black ain't going to help much against decks that are packing innocent blood, chainer's edict, and/or mutilate. I suspect the result of Chainer's Edict is that Enforcer may bring it's Meddling Mages to the maindeck.

By Mike STT on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 11:39 am:

Bliminy, Enforcer go can counter it if they have to, its only two cards(Flashback), and thats assuming they ever get enough mana to flashit back any ways, and with the growing popularity of morningtide, it may never get flashed back

By platipus on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 12:21 pm:

Its not only just two cards, most decks packing chainer's edict will also, be running duress and many of them addle as well, so you will have to counter the duress or the addle, then the edict, then possibly the innocent blood.

By shanesams on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 01:16 pm:

Why would enforcer or tog decks metagame against edict? all they have to do is counter it, its not any differnt than innocent blood or for terminate (in the tog's case). Its a spell they have to counter. nothing more.

If anything it will HELP tog, because now that deck has ways to kill untargetables and problack critters and regenerators.

By SpectralShift on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 04:04 pm:

The reason it would redefine the environment is that:

They must counter it. Any spell CAN be countered, but having to counter one makes it a powerful card.

It is splashable and playable in nearly any deck. RGb can use it, and UB can use it, in theory. That makes the must counter strategy even more potent. If everyone is playing a powerful card, then it does (by definition) change the environment.

Still, it won't completely change everything... but decks will have to adapt.

By Nix (Nix) on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 05:08 pm:

If any card is going to alter the environment, it is going to be morningtide. Tog, Tings, 5CSG, and many other decks all rely on having cards in their graveyard (for various reasons). if/when decks start maindecking these, things could change.

By Mike STT on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 08:25 pm:

NO, UR ALL Wrong, the enviornment redefining card is gonna be reefshaman,they cant counter it if u play first and it will totally destroy atog fecks, they cant handle its massive power, it is after all the best 1 cat creature ever known to magic, and its blue, that means islands, which includes such cards as sea floor debris and the powerfull spells like jaded response and escape routes, both of which have great combos.

If you continued reading this after the first sentence, u just lost i minute of ur life, sorry.

By SpectralShift on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 05:13 pm:

The only catch with morning tide is that its white, a very serious drawback. It also affects you equally, meaning you can't splash it in your own threshold dependend deck. It also doesn't really affect game-state. Sure, a tog on the board with nothing in the graveyard isn't a huge threat, but it is still a threat that goes undealt. In decks that run upheaval and what not, regaining the damage thrust isn't impossible... especially the infiltrator/familiar decks.

For instance -- tings still gets to hit you once, minimum, with terra. Most threshold decks can regain threshold (UG tempo, or the 5csg) rapidly. Psychotog is the hardest hit, but it doesn't take them out of the game, strictly speaking. If they overextend, it will be game over, but early on it won't have much impact.

By Godder on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 10:32 pm:

Tings goes off, and plays a land. You play a land. They play another land, and play Terravore. You play a land and Morningtide. Terravore dies. Terravore never got around to hitting you...

The obvious play then, keep Morningtide + 2 lands in hand vs Tings...

By By: Funnydude with the help of NixNix on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 10:32 pm:

Why would Chainer's Edict redefine T2? I think most of the people that have posted are a little over excited about the card. The fact is, allowing your opponent to decide which creature to sac isn't all that great. He can sac a small meaningless creature or just bounce his only creature back to his hand. And with all the countermagic being used it'll be difficult to get a sorcery resolved to begin with. Don't give me crap about how your gonna flash it and get them the second time around, because there are a lot of other things I'd want to do with 7 mana late game, especially when my opponent will probably already have 2+ creatures in play. The reason Diabolic Edict is so good is because you can get them to sac the creature at any time(it comes in handy during their attack phase, before u declare blockers and such), and even then the card is rarely played in multiples.

Lets take a look at the other removal options...

You have your mono-Black, which it would be viable to use Chainer's Edict, but not 4 copies since theres plenty of other black removal.

B/R: Terminate, an instant, you get to choose the creature being removed, and it can't regen. Urza's Rage(and all other red burn spells) most can deal with creatures as well as players and allow you to target the creature/player u want to damage.

B/W: Vindicate, Wrath/Rout even Death Grasp, Vindicate has the potential to destroy any one thing of your choice on the board, and you can deal damage and gain life with Death Grasp. Wrath/Rout allow you to deal with all creatures, which is a clear advantage, since you control it.

B/G: Pernicious Deed, can clear the board if needed. Better than Edict because it can be used as an instant, and can affect more than 1 perminent including non-creature perminents.

B/U: Any type of counterspell or bounce spell, just counter the threats and bounce the ones you don't counter so you can counter them when your opponent plays them again... Both almost always allow you to choose the target.

I consider all of these examples better than Chainers Edict. Cards that redefine formats are rarely used in under 4 copies and its considered crazy to do so. When a card redefines a format, people splash the color just to play it. I don't see either of those things happening with Chainer's Edict, but I'd be very happy if it did, because the card is just too easy to deal with.

P.S: Morningtide is a kick ass card.

By Exodus on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 10:55 pm:

Funnydude with the help of NixNix

-Your argument is the most unjustafied piece of shit I've ever seen. Chainer's Edict is the best card in Torment...hands down! When a card affects the best two decks in the enviroment so much to the point where they are almost unplayable then a card is some good. Wow, you listed each color combos removal with black. What's that prove other than you have options to support the Edict. If Edict gets countered, than you have Deed, Terminate and the like to use and vice versa. Also who cares if you don't use 4 of them in each deck. How's that matter? Oh no I don't have enough room for 4 Spiritmongers in my B/G deck. Looks like it's not a good card. Why don't you back up your argument before you post next time so someone like me doesn't have to clean up the mess you made and rip you apart for making the mess. That post above me is a joke! A shame! Yea, the post above mine, don't read it because some idiot definetly wrote it. To all good Magic players out there, play Chainers Edict. I know I don't have to tell you that but I will anyway. It's amazing! If 8 creatures spells is no good (Call of the Herd) than Chainers Edict is toilet paper.

By Mageta on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 07:18 am:

Think about it people. Sorcery speed, diabolic edict with a high flashback. If you can use the flashback, you should win anyway. Flashback needs to be cheap, and no call of the herd/beastattack cards shouldbe used for it to be usefull enough to run 4. Exodus, there is no flaming on this board - you should go somewhere else. Tog wont be unplayable, dont ever say that. R\G wont be unplayable as you cant kill both coh tokens with it. Cards usually dont reform formats - formats decide wether if the card is good enough to be used.

By Eldain on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 09:06 am:

Exodus, sorry, but I have to give you a warning. Maybe some people have different oppinions, but this is by no means a justification for getting personal. You don't have to insult people to make your point clear.
This was not your first post in that manner, thus the warning.


By Nix (Nix) on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 09:17 am:

dude, just cuz you dont run 4 mongers doesn't mean its not a good card, it means that it does not re-define the format.

i wouldnt EVER call balancing tings a teir one deck...theres many ways around it. secondly, tog is still very playable, edict isnt gonna change that.

all of the mentioned alternatives are all cards i would rather be playing BEFORE edict, because they are WAAAAAAAAY more versatile.

you want cards that redefined the format? Academy. Bargain. Replenish. Jar. All of those cards the format adjusted to. Who will need to adjust to edict? Tog can counter, enforcer can counter, aetherburst, snake, tings is janky enough that ANY form of cheap removal would work. cast the balancing act? i can float 2 blue in ersponse....or a red and a black in response....the list goes on.

Diabolic Edict is played way, way , way more than this shitty card in the other formats. if chainers edict was sooo god like dont you think that they would use it? because the card blows ass. wtf are you doing making an opponent sac a creature with 7 mana, during YOUR turn? you dont even get to choose the creature! but whatever.....if you want to lpay four of it, go for it. the card is weak, plain and simple.

By De (De) on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:08 am:

The combination of Edict and direct removal is pretty strong. On its own its strong - its hardly ever dead in this format - but against decks like Opposition its pretty pointless. Add it to point or mass removal and it shines.

If you actually PLAY the new standard you will see that beig a Sorcery, or having a high flashback cost isn't of much consequence. If it was an instant with flashbck cost of 5 it would still be bad against R/G and good against most other decks.

By Guapeton on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 12:58 pm:

I run ghastly demise over edict in my tog build.
Agaisnt r/g and oppo the edict is completely
useless, while demise gets rid of just about anything except mongrels. It does have its uses like in the mirror and agaisnt enforcer go but it doesnt justify more than a couple of slots in the sb in my opinion. Id NEVER maindeck it.

By who cares on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 03:01 pm:

Chainers Edict is good. It isn't super broken, flash back really stinks on it because it's so expensive and it's a socery. Other edicts never changed Type 2 and this won't either.

By Funnydude007 on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 05:29 pm:


Chainer's Edict is toilet paper, thats what I'm trying to tell you. My friends and I will send you a bunch of them and you can go wipe your ass with them. If you don't want it that way, I can arrange for my friends and I to do the ass wiping, then send you the cards.

The topic asked the question "Will Chainer's Edict redefine the t2 format?" and my answer is: no way in hell, there are many, many more versatile cards, and they should be played instead of edict. On top of that, I justified my answer with some evidence, which is more than I can say for you.

Exodus writes:
"Chainer's Edict is amazing. All good magic players should play Chainer's Edict."

By SpectralShift on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:58 am:

I think most are missing the point.

Edict is versatile removal. Its single coloured, which makes it more playable in a larger variety of decks. Unlike a lot of other used cards, it only affect your opponent.

The REAL benefit is that it hurts decks that run very few creatures. Please, read that again. It hurts enforcer, has a chance against tings, and is a solid play against tog. It also is useable against any other random creature-based deck, though less effectively.

Again, not every deck should run it. However, any card that currently is playable against nearly every t2 deck is very solid. Is it better than terminate? Its certainly more dependable. It kills pro-red/pro black, and its mon-coloured. Does it work better than deed? They are simply different... deed hurts you too, which means you have to play a deck with few permanents. Edict gives no such restriction. Its true for B/W too (pro-black, though vindicate is clearly more versatile... It also helps earlier than wrath).

In any case, I think those on the extreme of either side aren't looking at it practically. Yes, it is only creature removal so it can't be great. But it is also removal that hurts many of the current top decks.

Obviously as a single card it lacks the power of FoF or something similar... But decks can now use this as support, making them feasible. BG beats now has a decent removal card... BW now has 8 versatile removal against RG... and so on. That's what will change the environment (monoblack will use it, for instance, making black decks that much more feasible).

As an aside... Its really not helpful to your arguement to use childish language. It makes you look an idiot more than anything else.

Morningtide is solid SB material if the top decks remain. It is not effective against Tings. They float mana and cast terravore. You don't have the land in play to cast tide before he attacks. Though, depend on the deck, he might not be able to kill you with a single attack, unless your playing control.

By Guapeton on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 11:21 am:

Spectral Shiftwhy is it that u think u cantreach 2 mana to cast morningtide agaisnt tings but u recommend edict agaisnt the same deck? They are both sorcery for 2 mana...

By SpectralShift on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 11:28 am:

I said edict is playable against tings, not that I recommend it.

It isn't a totally dead card, no more than morning tide is against it. The difference is that edict is playable against near all other decks, and as such is much more likely to be mainboarded. Tings is losing ground steadily now anyway. Mono-black is a real blow due to discard.

Also, IMO, the best card to play against tings would be slay (black) or terminate (if you happen to be playing those colours). That, and agro supported by discard, are pushing the deck out of tier 1 (and it is generally thought it already is).

By silent steve on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:42 pm:

i think that innocent blood is better against tings. ok they tap and sack all of their lands to go off and play a terravore. your turn comes, land, blood, go. i like edict. i flashed it back many, many times, and i dont think that the flash back it unreasonable. but edict is definately NOT toilet paper. hehe

By Parma on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 10:30 pm:

OK i must agree that the New edict is by means not anything like diobolic edict but it does screw alot of decks over. think about it. Tog .......i have one creature's going to die .....WHAT.... it's not as bad as every one thinks it is............and off the subject why is no one using voldalian zombie (no i can't spell)

By that guy who eliminated ced twice from 2 tournaments on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 11:27 pm:


By Eldain (Eldain) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 05:46 pm:


Not when someone has to use insults to communicate.
Not whith a childish behaviour to get "attention".

By shadetree on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

i am glad that this has gotten so much attention, but it really hasn't answered my question other than it seems people are split on whether it is going to make much of a difference mainboard. I have played my current t2 deck g/b/r, using deed, earthquake, and edict along with discard for removal against a infiltrator/tog deck, and it seems the tog deck still wins a greater percentage of the time, and only allows his tog to die if he has another in hand, but i really don't have info on how it affects other decks - mainly enforcer i guess, since most seem to think tings is no longer tier 1, main. from my experience, it doesn't give tog too much to worry about, they have too much counter and bounce to need to worry. i of course already know it means almost nothing against creature heavy decks, but most of what i have seen around here (germany) are control heavy, creature light decks or g/r or g/b beatdown, which i know from experiece that edict can be quite good after a timely quake or deed vs beatdown.

By SpectralShift on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 05:45 pm:

Quite right!

Edict is only effective if your able to put pressure on the tog player. That forces him to play out as much as possible, which means you may be able to take advantage of any weakness he has. If, for instance, your casting herds (gb), mongrels and basking roowallas (Wow, is that also good... hurts burst pretty damn good!), and he's trying to stay alive, he may cast tog without support. Even if he does have support, it costs you two to fish a counter, meaning you can cast another threat safely.

It isn't a "god card", its just solid. It still acts like removal against a fair number of decks. The flashback may not come into play, but you may also be glad to have it once in a while when both sides are stalemated.

As for your question:

Tings cannot be changed.
Enforcer cannot be changed.

Tog can run the 8-12 creature version, which nullifies the removal pretty much entirely. However, it weakens it against control and discard.

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