4 colors Necrozur deck in search of opinions

Beyond Dominia: Casual and Beginner's Advice Mill: 4 colors Necrozur deck in search of opinions

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By Wizbane on Sunday, January 27, 2002 - 01:26 pm:

Here it is (a bit old school and powerless):

Lands (23)
---------------------------
4 City of Brass
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Library of Alexandria

Blue (9)
----------------------------
4 Mana Drain
3 Counterspell
1 Force of Will (more than one is bad)
1 Zur's Weirding

Green (8)
-------------------------------
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Multani Maro Sorcerer (I prefer it over Morphling to have free blue mana)


White (8)
-----------------------------
3 Sword to Plow.
3 Disenchant
1 Catastrophe
1 Balance

Black (11)
--------------------------------
3 Dark Ritual
2 Hypnotic specters (need flyers)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor (prefer it over fact or fiction)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Mind Twist
1 Necropotence

Artifact (4)
-------------------------------
1 Ivory Tower
1 Lotus Petal (prefer it over Sol ring)
1 Spellbook (prefer it over Library of Leng for 1st turn necro)
1 Zuran Orb

TOTAL (63) (goes to 60 without 1 balance, 1 zuran orb and 1 reflecting pool)

Keep in mind all the comments are not absolutes, just referred to this deck trough playtesting.

Really need to sticky in the 2nd Ivory Tower but where?

And should I rework the creature removal spells?

Thanks
WIZBANE


By Matt Caplan (Caplan) on Sunday, January 27, 2002 - 04:11 pm:

I don't get it. What is this deck supposed to do?


By Nova on Sunday, January 27, 2002 - 04:58 pm:

Me either, especially the part about any more than 1 Force of Will being bad...


By Jacob Orlove on Sunday, January 27, 2002 - 05:39 pm:

Uh...I think it's trying to get a Zur's weirding/Necropotence/Ivory tower lock on its opponents...but that's almost as bad as the mono-U deck in the ToC that forgot to add morphs-whoops ;).

And the FoW comment isn't the only strange one.

Morph wins games.
Multani doesn't-free blue or not.

I don't know why this deck needs flyers, and if it does, WHY NOT USE MORPHLING????

Also, lotus petal is just terrible, even in most combo decks. ALmost no one should use it, unless their deck is academy.

And birds/specters/multani mean that this deck loses to an early oath, even if you get the weirding lock.

Finally...Catastrophy? a 6cc wrath? or would you want to geddon? I just don't uderstand why this is here. Use wrath if you want to kill all creatures, or diabolic edict to kill uncounterables.

It's a nice idea, but I just don't think its even tier 2, as combo is just terrible in type one (where so many people run counters, or can kill you before the "lock" is established). At least try a combo that wins the game...with a lock, there's just too much that can go wrong.


By Wizbane on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 10:53 am:

Here I am.
Sorry for the late reply.

Jacob is right about the lock. The lock is Zur's Weirding+Ivory Tower and 6 cards in hand.

But there can also be a non-lock combo with Zur's Weirding plus any one of these cards: Demonic or Diabolic Tutor, Regrowth, Necro, Yawg.Will, Holistic Wisdom. And I would add even Sylvan to this list. Nobody can make you discard three cards each turn.

The bad is your opponent should not have these cards in hand when Weirding is played and these are not exaclty uncommon cards in Type 1. Mind Twist is a key card to be tutored for in fact, and I'm also testing Unmask.

About the "comments":
More than 1 Force of will bad: easy, just count the number of blue cards in the deck.

Need flyers: with Multani instead of Morphling a single moat can ruin my day.

Multani over Morphling: Multani is a winning condition, Morphling is very good if compared with Serra (flyer for 5 mana) as a benchmark, but since I want an untargettable creature, and I want free blue mana to back it up with a counter, in this deck Morphling is just a 3/3 untargettable creature that costs 6, of which 3 are blue mana, so it doesn't work.

Diabolic Tutor over Fact or Fiction: I'm not so sure about this but I like the second tutor so much.

Lotus Petal is essential since I need mana of any color 1st turn (for Dark ritual, Birds).

Wiz


By Black Knight (Blackknight) on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 12:32 pm:

I don't know. I guess this could be ok if you're playing against newer players, or extended decks, maybe. This is not a competitive deck in almost any type 1 field that has experienced players with good decks. If the lock is zur's wierding + ivory tower, why not base the deck on those 2 cards, and put in more than one of each one?

"Lotus Petal is essential since I need mana of any color 1st turn (for Dark ritual, Birds). "

then why not play udp or mox diamond over this thing? you're basing your reasons for not taking it out by assuming that you'll draw it every first turn. If I had to build this deck, I would drop most of the black, white, and green cards, and work more on drawing cards and countering spells until you have the lock. I would never play mulatni over morphling. ever.


By Nova on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 03:43 pm:

My problem is force of will as a one of is rather pointless, since it is supposed to be a first turn counter, or one when you need to tap out. If you don't have multiples, you won't draw them as necessary. I'd say either up the blue count to help accomodate 4 Force of will, or drop the single force which isn't going to do much at all as a single.


By mepepersonthing on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 09:47 pm:

I assume that the FoW is there to help disrupt Control: why not play a Mana Short or something of that sort in your list for the same reason?


By Razor (Razor) on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 10:36 pm:

I have a two colour version that goes off not too bad. Green/Blue. It uses Blessings and Whetstones and 4 Towers, 4 Zur's, permission, drawing, etc.

I imagine that 4 Towers and any drawing and Zur's Weirding will do nicely. Why not try something like: Zur's Fact O'phidian?

8^)

Razor

PS. That guy is right, Morphling wins games!


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 10:59 pm:

P.P.S. Playing Diabolic Tutor over Fact or Fictionis embarassing.


By Wizbane on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 04:41 am:

Here I am again. Sorry if this wasn't considered "competitive". This explains (in part) why I received some annoying comments in that forum.

Nevertheless, I'm trying to make use of the various suggestions, and here's an updated list (not playtested yet).

Lands (22)
---------------------------
4 City of Brass
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 .... (Wasteland or one more black mana?)
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Blue (11)
----------------------------
4 Mana Drain
3 Counterspell
2 Force of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Zur's Weirding

Green (8)
-------------------------------
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Multani Maro Sorcerer (I swear I'll think about morphling)

White (5)
-----------------------------
2 Sword to Plow.
2 Disenchant
1 Balance

Black (11)
--------------------------------
3 Dark Ritual
2 Hypnotic specters
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Mind Twist
1 Necropotence

Artifact (3)
-------------------------------
2 Ivory Tower
1 Lotus Petal


I see this more as a control deck, rather than a combo deck, that's why I don't go towards the 4 Zur's 4 Ivory tower route...that would be another deck altogheter.

Some of my changes: basically I got rid of Diabolic tutor and put in the Mystical Tutor, that is blue and can be pitched to Force of Will. So the 2nd Force of Will got in. I also exchanged 1 Stp with 1 Diabolic Edict and dropped Catastrophe for Balance.

Now the questioned cards can be:

Multani-Morphling. I know your opinions. And with 2 Force of Wills, Morpling seems even better...

Lotus Petal-... Undiscovered Paradise now seems to fit its role. Sol ring back or something else?

Mystical tutor-Fact or fiction. Which is better?

Thanks
Wiz


By Jacob Orlove on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 06:27 pm:

The other great things about morphling include:
1. It can fly (and thus circumvent blockers)
2. It can attack, untap, and then block, too (control decks like to block weenies and attack)
3. It can be "pumped" to a 0/10 wall (by giving it -1/+1 seven times (or more), its power stays at 0 (can't go lower), while its toughness keeps rising)
4. It can be made untargetable (which can be nice, as some players will waste burn spells trying to kill it-and then you won't get bolted).
5. It can be pumped to 5/1, and thus kill your opponent in 4 turns (just be sure to make it untargetable and flying, so that it can be sure to get through)
6. After pumping it to 5/1 you can put combat damage on "the stack" and then pump its toughness as high as you want (once damage is assigned, it stays, even if the morphling turns into an 0/8 creature...this way, it can block and kill a 5/5 creature, after attacking for five on your turn)
7. As you mentioned, it can be pitched to force of will, because it's blue.


By Wizbane on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 03:18 pm:

Hi Jacob.

I understand the overall benefits of Morphling, and I'm seriously considering it.

My choice of Multani was basically done on other things.

1. It can't fly. Ok, 1:0 for Morphling, no doubt about it.

2. It is a worst blocker than Morphling, due to the latter ability to untap and to fly. 2:0 for Morphling.

3. See point 2. The ability to pump Morphling in defense is important in blocking other creatures and surviving. Still 2:0 for Morphling in my twisted mind.

4. It is untargetable, by default. Multani scores on this one, 2:1. The ability of Morphling is conditional (since it requires additional mana to be used), and this can be an advantage in certain situations. You need the ability only when required after all. But can be a bad thing on some others, when you are unable to pay the mana costs (for many possible reasons).

5. Multani doesn't kill in 4 turns. This is a difficult comparison. Actual playtest shows that 6/6 are the medium values possessed by Multani but this is strictly metagame dependant. This is another one for Morphling I think, therefore 3:1.

6. Multani too is supposed to kill a 5/5 blocked creatures *if it don't flies*, and this is not even guaranteed. The scores remain 3:1 for Morphling (again, in my twisted mind) just because this point regards a consequential thing of previously listed benefits of Superman.

7. Multani is green. Can't be pitched to FoW. Another point for Morphling, so we're at 4:1.
(altough I really should point out that pitching a morphling to FoW in my deck wouldn't be a great idea, since that creature slot (Multani or Morphling) is an important winning condition.

8. Multani is green. So it doesn't require blue mana to be cast. And this can be extremely important based on the deck you're toying with.
In Keeper, every mana is blue. No difference. And Keeper has 4 force of will cards to back up the casting of Morphling and plenty of blue cards to feed up the FoW.
In my deck, there are 2 Force of will cards, and to back up the casting of a Morplhing (or Multani)
I dont' have many cards to pitch, so a traditional counterspell is the most common method ---> and I need 2 blue mana to do this. Morphling requires at leas three blue mana to be properly played, this means I must have a mana base of 5 blue mana available the turn I play the card. I've playtested it and I usually didn't get good results, expecially against permission decks.

Also, when we come to actual play (I refer mainly to the Keeper deck, similar in that it has a single devoted slot, max 2 in some versions), Morphling is 90% of the time played as a winning condition (at least, I've played it in such a way 90% of the time).

This means Morphling is basically used as a 3UUU casting cost untargetable creature, with an upkeep cost of 2U or 2UU (pumping+immunity or pumping+immunity+flying) that wins in 4 turns.

So my conclusion is: Morphling is a better creature, but is it a better choice over Multani in my deck? And what about Zephid (4UU, blue, flying, 3/4 untargettable)?


By Jacob Orlove on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:49 am:

I think I the real issue in the morph/multani debate now. Your problem was that you did not have enough consistent blue for morphling in your mana base.

However, a quick glance shows that you are only using 6 lands that don't produce blue mana.
My conclusion: you may not be drawing enough land altogether. You have 22 land, 3 birds, 3 rituals, and 1 lotus petal, for a total of 31 "mana sources." However, only 25 of those sources stick around, and only 22 have no summoning sickness, too (as well as being immune to opposing creature kill).

Basically, you should try replacing the birds, rituals, and petal (no longer necessary w/out the other 2) with lands and maybe some artifact mana that "sticks" (like fellwar stone). You could even add some Mishra's Factories if you're worried about the number of win conditions (especially against mono-blue-can't counter this :)). Try doing this, and you should find that you have enough land for morphling.

Next, although you have four mana drains, you have no stroke of genius or braingeyser (or fact or fiction, which circumvents the weirding)These are both strong cards (even uder weirding-they can't pay 10-20 life to stop 5-10 cards:)) that can also turn into win conditions late game (oh look, you have 10 cards in your library, and I have 15 lands :)). With more card drawing, you should get to your lock sooner.

Finally, one last card. Hypnotic specter. With this and birds, you are actually hurt by abyss/balance/fire/etc. Taking it out means that your opponent will draw useless cards, and that helps you win. In addition, unless I misconstrued the deck, it's not really trying to go all-out aggressive, or even aggro-control, this is a control/lock deck, and your card choices should reflect that. The specter, while strong, does not have great synergy with the rest of the deck, and should really be replaced with more defesive/lock cards.

Card suggestions: since you lost some "fast" mana, try adding more cheap cards that help keep you alive early (like stp).

Before you respond, try playing a few games with these changes, and see how the deck works. if you don't like it, change back. It's not worth winning if you don't enjoy the game. But if you find that, in some ways at least, the deck functions better and more smoothly, experiment, and stick with some of the changes.


By Jacob Orlove on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:56 pm:

Oops. That should have been 29 "mana sources"


By Jacob Orlove on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 02:34 pm:

Wizbane? You here?


By me on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 10:36 pm:

let's move this to the top of the mill so that wizbane might actually respond? any chance of that?


By Wizbane on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:51 am:

Lands (22)
---------------------------
4 City of Brass
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 .... (Wasteland or one more black mana?)
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Blue (11)
----------------------------
4 Mana Drain
3 Counterspell
2 Force of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Zur's Weirding

Green (7)
-------------------------------
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Multani Maro Sorcerer

White (7)
-----------------------------
2 Sword to Plow.
2 Disenchant
1 Balance
1 Replenish
1 Academy Rector

Black (9)
--------------------------------
3 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Mind Twist
1 Necropotence

Artifact (2)
-------------------------------
2 Ivory Tower

TOTAL 58 CARDS, 2 to go

I'm not the fastest answering guy of the net, I know. Real life issues.

Nevertheless, here is my latest built.

Basically I'm still thinking about Morphling over Multani and I haven't modified my mana base. This is a UBGW deck, there are no secondary colors. So I need those birds. I make a clear distinction between mana acceleration cards and mana sources in a deck. Even if birds suffer from summoning sickness, they're a faster mana source than a land. Three mana sources 2nd turn instead of two mean a lot. The only better choice over birds IMHO are moxes but I don't have them.
Birds have also some very small advantages thank to their creature status: Multani + Bird makes Multani immune to Diabolic Edict, a bird is removable to Holistic to take Multani back from the grave. Also a bird can block an attacking creature, giving me one more turn to deal with it if needed.

About the Dark Rituals. I don't count them as mana sources at all. They are just mana acceleration cards. I have Necro and Yawgmoth Will. Three rituals seem a good choice to me.

I've been playing some games vs Enchantress lately and now I'm testing two cards: Replenish and Academy Rector. I'm quite happy with both of them.

Lotus Petal is gone, as are the two hippies, even if I miss them with those three rituals in the deck.

I have 2 free slots now. Some cards under consideration: sol ring, zuran orb, abundance, 1 more land or anything that will come to mind.

Thanks
Wizbane


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