:( okay i'm really mad about this. :(

Beyond Dominia: The Rumor Mill: :( okay i'm really mad about this. :(

By Urzas Mistress on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 10:35 am:

all i needed was to win one game to make it to top eight at mississippi states. this jerk that had NO WAY IN HELL of making it to top eight was my opponent. we played, and he beat me. did not concede. did not apologize. just smiled a sh!t eating grin as he ghintu fired me for 23 (i could do nothing because i had countered his first orims chant, but not the SECOND orims chant).

i would never have done that. :( i would have conceded!!!

things like that make me think twice about playing this game.

By Urzas Mistress on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 10:38 am:

p.s. he had no friends whose averages he was trying to improve by beating me, and his prize would have been no larger for defeating me.

By gizzard on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 02:43 pm:

I dont know if I should say anything about this since you obviously feel strongly about the subject and are unlikely to change your mind.

I've been on the opposite side of this situation before where a total stranger has asked me to concede so that they could make the finals. I was reluctant, because if I concede to Stranger A then Stranger B (who would have made finals instead) gets the shaft. In the end, I did concede, partly because it seemed that all sorts of people were conceding or IDing in order to fix the results.

But, thats weak to say "well, I'll help fix some results because everyone else is fixing them already." The experience left a bad taste in my mouth and I resolved that if it ever came up again I wouldnt be a part of the manipulation of standings. Nowadays, I just want to play my games out and let the results fall where they may.

By mathusalem on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 03:31 pm:

i understand how frustrated you are Urza's Mistress. I'm sorry to say I would have done the same than your opponent though. As my old fencing motto goes "give them hell before you die" and it's still the way I play magic (I don't even go near to tournaments). Take it easy, play casually, and remember my motto.



By Michael on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 04:12 pm:

I probably would have done the exact same thing and played the game out. I've always had the attitude that "if you want to make it to the finals, it'll be over my dead body".

It may be quite possible that he knew he would help a teamate if he won. He also helped the tiebreakers of anyone who beat him.


By Curses/Foiled on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 07:06 pm:

Oh COME ON. You think the other guy is a shithead because he doesn't practically help you to CHEAT? Hell, it's guys like YOU that make me avoid tourneys.

By dan on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 03:37 am:

You lost more games than the guys who made top 8. Do you really think you deserve to make top 8?

I was once in a situation where the person who won made top 8, a draw meant neither of us made it. We were 1/1 and about to run out of time. We agreed to toss a coin and the loser would concede. A judge said we would get a warning for it but no other punishment. My opponent lost the toss but didn't concede. I felt hard done by but didn't feel that I DESERVED to make top 8.

By Urzas Mistress on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 06:57 pm:

okay fine. i obviously don't have permission to be upset. some of you were nice, others flat rude.

just forget it. i won't post here again. somebody kill the thread please? thanks.

By VB@DG on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 10:22 pm:

Conceding a match is cheating. There's no other word for it. In the coin flipping incident above, as coordinator, I would have tossed both players involved. Situations like these are why so many good MTG players won't play in tournaments, and it's a shame. Things like this make me think twice about playing this game......

By ses on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 02:05 am:

VBatDG: Conceding a match is not cheating. You are allowed to draw or concede any match you want. The only restriction is that you cannot persuade your opponent with bribery or accept bribes.

Mistress: As for wanting an opponent to concede so you can enter the top 8, it may be disappointing to you, but it is not a realistic expectation since there are ratings points at stake if nothing else. Some people care about that. There will come a time when you are in a position to make it and you need someone to beat another player. You will prefer that they play hard to win instead of conceding.

By gary from london on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 10:08 am:

intentionally killing a thread is also cheating.
this ones gonna run and run !

By Curses/Foiled on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 12:22 pm:

Look, U.M., this is how it's supposed to work: you play games, win some, lose some. If you're good, you win games, and if you're good enough, you win enough games to let you to the top 8. It's that simple. There is really nothing else.

And if you can't beat enough people to make the cut, then - repeat after me - YOU. DON'T. DESERVE. TO. GET. THERE. Somebody else will go, somebody who DID get enough wins, somebody who was BETTER, and the right thing for you to do is to try and do better next time. WHINING is pathetic. Asking people for 'handout' points in order to fix the scoretable is pathetic, not to mention practically cheating.

The way the scores are calculated relies on everyone playing to win. Anyone who plays this game at the tourneys SHOULD always, ALWAYS play to win - otherwise they're damaging the tournament. The only - ONLY - valid reason for conceding is the realization that you can't win the current game and it would be pointless to continue. Anything else - CHEATING. There's no two ways about it.

That's my $0.02 on this: you never get what you don't deserve, and deserve everything you get, and this time you clearly didn't deserve the win - after all, the other guy DID beat you fair and square. If you can't make the top 8, don't waste time in petty WHINING. Just make better decks, learn to play better. IF YOU'RE GOOD ENOUGH, YOU WILL MAKE THE TOP 8.

And no, I wouldn't have conceded. Nobody I know would have, nobody THEY know would have, and I don't think anybody anywhere should have.

By VB@DG on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 12:44 pm:

Hey ses, I understand that concession is allowed, I just don't agree with it. In my humble opinion, it is cheating. I do like Curses/Foiled's view, granted there comes a point in a game where winning is impossible, and anyone with common sense will concede. My problem is with those who expect their opponent to concede so they can advance, or offer some inducement for them to do so, and those people who concede to help out a "team" member.

By Urzas Mistress on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 10:51 pm:

no, i take that back. i AM going to post.

how dare you. you pompus, ineffectual jackasses who get your kicks by insulting people on-line because you are too shy/introverted/stuttering/hated to speak up in real life. HOW DARE YOU. you would NEVER talk that way to my face, you lard assed, no-life losers. and yes, i would say these things to you in real life after the shit you just told me.

i posted here because i was upset. i am answered with jackass schooling. DO NOT talk to me that way, i will not tolerate it!

and on that note, i'm out of here. it's been a while since i've been to bdominia, and i see that bdominia has changed. six months ago your ass would have been crawled by at least five other people for talking to me like that.

p.s. obviously my rant does not apply to everybody who replied to my thread. i think it is safe to say that YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

By Burning Ice, the Elementalist (Burningice) on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 12:36 am:

UM: I don't want to get involved, and I'm not saying I agree with either you or them, but people are just giving their opinion here. No reason to get angry over opinions.

By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 01:46 am:

Ah, don't leave. Serra's been really naughty.

I apologize for not interjecting sooner, Mistress, but I don't read the Rumor Mill much.

Guys: when someone vents, it's usually a good idea to be a little more polite about a rebuttal. Whether or not you agree or disagree is completely irrelevant; opinions on this issue don't matter, but the way we express ourselves does.

For example:

I'm sorry you didn't make T8 after coming so close. If I were in a situation like your opponent I would have given you the games simply because I am not the sort that has an "over my dead body" mentality, particularly when having one gains me nothing. I'd certainly do that for a friend and probably for someone who asked me nicely. Magic is a game and I'd prefer to be a direct part of someone's good day.

I'm equally if not moreso sorry and embarrassed by the way some of these people have replied to your frustration. Apart from the lack of civility, I am appalled by the total incomprehension of the difference between "I had something bad happen and I'm upset" and "This is what happened, give me your input." Good luck in your relationships with others if you lack even that much sensitivity.

By ????? on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 02:31 am:

w00t kick some ass


By Curses/Foiled on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 05:36 pm:

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

No, wait, I take that back. My point here is that, the way I see it, you just don't have a good reason to be upset. Coming close yet failing hurts, I can understand that, but you can't seriously expect a guy to quit for you just because it would be such a sweet gesture from him to do so. If you could, we would have tourneys where a "pretty please" would out-do any deck, any time. Nobody at the Olympic Games gives up because somebody asks him to. Why should we?

"For fun", I hear somebody call.

Let's imagine for a second that the other guy would have quit. You'd have made the 8-cut. That means somebody out there wouldn't have. Would you have the nerve to tell him that he got the shaft only because the guy you played against could have killed you, but didn't because he didn't want to hurt your feelings? Or how about you, Azhrei? I sure wouldn't. Lacking the "over my dead body mentality" is here, in this game, akin to lacking honesty. Akin to cheating. It is so because every point you claim for yourself means that everyone else's points mean that much less. If you get points in an unfair way such as that, you're selfishly ruining the game for everyone else. Even if you, or the other guy, didn't mean to.

Aw, f*ck, I'm really trying to keep this civil here, but you sure aren't making it easy for me. You are upset because you don't think people on this board show enough sympathy for you after somebody DARED NOT TO LET YOU WIN. He DARED to kill you in a game the sole purpose of which is to kill the other player. That's... that's childish. I just can't phrase it any more politely. I just can't feel for anyone for such a thoroughly stupid reason. If that - excuse me - is enough to piss you off, I imagine everything in the world is.

I don't expect you to think about this rationally - your completely unreasonable flame a few posts ago kind of was a good enough warning sign. In fact, I'm not sure what I expect to gain from this - posting what I feel is the truth instead of some generic piece of fabricated ass-kissing at the threat of a ban. But I did read at Croteam's site some time ago, that there's an old Croatian saying: "Tell the truth, then quickly run away."

I've told the truth, without fabrications, without needless boasting, without compromises. That's all I can do. If you don't like it, at least prepare a few solid arguments the next time before you start flaming board-wide.

P.S. U.M., take it from me - if I'd met you face-to-face on this, I honestly couldn't have been bothered to be even this nice. You can't get banned from real life, you know.

By darkdragoon on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 09:16 pm:

Shoulda had Diverts, Mistress. Or shoulda drawn one. :-)

By gary on Friday, November 16, 2001 - 09:44 am:

translation of urza's mistress original post ;
" i dont like it cos i lost the game ! if im gonna lose they should just let me win anyway !
now im gonna throw all my toys out of the playpen!"

By VB@DG on Friday, November 16, 2001 - 01:32 pm:

Well said, Curses/Foiled, very civil, and quite to the point. If only everyone had such manners....

By Matt The Great on Friday, November 16, 2001 - 02:18 pm:

I've got those manners...but not the way with words, I'm afraid. Matt < Curses/Foiled.

By Lobo on Friday, November 16, 2001 - 03:13 pm:

Wow, most of you are uncivil.

I once thought I had a chance for T8 but ended up without a chance for the final match, while my opponent did. I conceded since I had no chance.

Had he expected it or asked for it, I wouldn't have done so, since it is essentially MY CALL.

Curses would almost certainly be pissed if someone failed to ID with him and cost him T8, or if someone who knew he couldn't make it to T8 kept playing and kept him from the T8. I'd bet on it. But that didn't happen so he gets to take the moral high ground that you have to win on your own to make the finals.

Too bad he didn't recognize that the moral high ground could be presented without his mindblowing arrogance and rudeness.

Too bad UM didn't respond to rudeness with either no response or no rudeness and upped the ante.

But mostly it's too bad that WOTC doesn't eliminate match concessions entirely. There's nothing wrong with conceding a game in order to have a chance to win a match by saving time or keeping your deck secret. But in my opinion, all match concessions lead to issues like this. Or deliberate concessions to allow a friend into the T8, UM wouldn't like losing out on the T8 like that and neither would anyone else.

By brightburningtiger on Saturday, November 17, 2001 - 10:20 am:

An alternative thought is:

"Wow I'm so ticked. I could have T8ed, but another player got a concession and knocked me out."

Is this fair?

Play hard and let the cards fall where they may. Never concede.

My $0.02.

By Curses/Foiled on Saturday, November 17, 2001 - 01:29 pm:

Hi guys - especially Lobo.

It's kind of hard to avoid a smattering of arrogance and rudeness when you're facing a model case of bad ego coupled with bad sportsmanship whining and flaming at your face over what I (and, it seems, many others) consider to be the only course of action that even remotely makes sense when your opponent in a competitive tournament asks you to give up simply because he wants to win, never mind playing the actual game. I wouldn't call any of my previous posts exactly "mind-blowing", however. Also, I would like to point out that you are in no position to label me a hypocrite, mainly due to the fact that you don't know f*cking anything about me at all. Your guesses at my presumed tournament behavior are exactly as valid as my equally uninformed guess that you're a purple three-legged hippo lapdancer from the planet Uranus (and so's your mother).

Fine, I'm arrogant. I'm rude. But I'm also _right_, and lack of etiquette just isn't enough to change that.

I was going to continue this post with a chapter that started with the words "why are we molly-coddling this spoiled kid anyway", when a curious though suddenly struck me. What if we _aren't_ dealing with a single-minded "I should be allowed to win the tournament even when at least 8 guys on it play better than me" jackass, but a simple case of misguided goodwill?

Think about it. Assuming that in his first post "Urzas Mistress" doesn't lie, he/she (you can never tell with these nicknames) would him-/herself be ready to quit on anyone that asked him/her (I think I'll just make a wild assumption and stick with "he" from now on) politely - which leads us to the conclusion that he doesn't see "fixing the scores" as de facto cheating (WHICH IT, BY GOD, IS) but as simple good behavior.

This, then, could be the case either because a) he doesn't realize that doing so harms the tournament (short-sightedness), b) he doesn't care (indifference when the quitter, opportunism when being quit on), or c) he prioritizes being NICE to the other guy over both the integrity of the game and being NICE to everyone else in the same tournament (insanity). Or, provided that none of those apply and the original post was untruthful, he could just be a spoiled brat.

The options aren't flattering. Before you unleash a torrent of posts demanding net courtesy that so many people so easily consider inherently more important than actually making points, PLEASE ask yourselves a simple question:

"Do I really want to face people like that in tournaments? People that have no respect over actually playing the game as it was intended to, people willing to nudge the scores up and down by a little just because they don't like the way they turn out? People to whom making the top 8 is more important than being able to beat enough contenders to make the top 8?"

I whole-heartedly support a certain gentlemanly approach on things posted on public forums - after all, it makes this interaction so much more comfortable - but I REFUSE to support idiocy in its any form. I REFUSE to give preference to being NICE to people over being honest to them, both here in the boards and out there on the play tables (hope that didn't sound overly melodramatic). I don't have any PATIENCE left for people like that. If that makes me thoroughly evil, then SO. BE. IT.

"Mind-blowing" (by L) Curses/Foiled

By The Maxx, Purple Groove Daddy (Maxx) on Saturday, November 17, 2001 - 10:10 pm:

Can you seriously be that daft?

It's not like this is a horrid and unspeakable thing, it happens at tournaments across the world every week. And not just by people with "bad egos", I know for a fact that there are a great number of grounded decent people ont the PT; and I gurantee you that there isn't one PT player that hasn't benefitted from their opponent conceding their last match. And I'm sure a few of them have asked their opponents to do so and would be angry if they didn't. I doubt that you people would be so quick to judge them.

As for it being cheating, it obviously is not. Cheating would be breaking the rules; and last time I checked, there is nothing in the DCI floor rules that says this is.

And even if you feel strongly enough about this to spout your anger about, remember this. There is a little thing called tact, which you all seem to be missing. Decent human beings don't jump down the throats of people that are obviously upset. And it doesn't matter if YOU are fine with being an evil asshole, it's the rest of the 4 billion people on the planet that matter.

Thoroughly Disgusted,
The Maxx

By Elrohir (Elrohir) on Sunday, November 18, 2001 - 08:47 am:

Actually, there's over 6 billion, with some 3 billion in Asia alone...

I'm sitting here with The Maxx, I think. I haven't bothered to look in on the rules to see if concession in these types of instances is cheating, but when I go, I go to these tournaments to have fun. I'm not driven to win, but if I do, I do. If I have no shot, I prefer giving other people a chance if needed.

If I were UM's opponent, with no chance of making top 8, and she did, I'd concede to her on the grounds that we play a normal match just for the fun of it so that no matter what the outcome, the "true" winner would know. If I lose the fun match, then I conceded fair and square. If I won the fun match, I'd know I could beat her and everyone she beats (if any) in the Top 8, so I'd be rooting for her as she advances.

It would also be nice to get part of the cut if they hand out packs for prizes, but it's unnecessary. I know that I'll give away large amounts of cards when I win tournaments. Just two weekends (maybe three, I don't remember) I won a sealed deck tournament at a local store and got 16 packs for it. I told my opponent in the last match that if I ended up winning, he'd get some of the prize. By virtue of being second place, he got some 8 packs or so himself, but I gave him four of my cut, so we both ended up with 12 packs each. I then turned around and gave a pack to every remaining person from the tournament, which amounted to another 7 of my packs or so (to those who care to keep track, that left me with 5 of my prize packs). I opened those, took out the rares that were good and the other cards I was interested in (no more than 8 cards) and gave the rest away to whomever was standing there at the time.

I don't expect others to be as generous, but wouldn't the whole tournament scene be a bit more fun if it were less about destroying everyone on the way to the top and more about being friendly and greatful to those who gave you time out of their day to have fun? After all, the game is called Magic: The GATHERING. Who wants to gather with a bunch of people who hates them, or just sees them as another opponent to be squashed? Not I.

By Evil Curses/Foiled on Sunday, November 18, 2001 - 04:24 pm:

Elrohir, Elrohir, Elrohir.

I don't HATE people I play against, I just play against them. That's what this is about AFAIC, the thrill of the game, the gamble, the battle of wits. It gets my blood flowing. And I'm horribly, horribly disappointed if my opponents expect and/or provide anything less.

I despise granting freebie points to people you play against simply because - as I explained earlier - that particular practice, while helping that ONE guy, harms everyone else in the tournament. What, pray tell, would make that ONE guy so much more important than the dozen, two dozen other participants? That he was randomly chosen to play against me hardly makes him SPECIAL in any way.

The only real way to play fair is to play hard. Think about it.

And Maxx - **** ***. I don't even need arguments to counter that.

By Lobo on Sunday, November 18, 2001 - 11:39 pm:

Well, curses. I know what I said was a guess. Are you seriously going to say you wouldn't be pissed?

Also, I suspect you wouldn't still be in the tournament if you couldn't make T8. Another guess; perhaps you are someone who plays all the way and hard or perhaps you play hard only until you are not going to make T8.

This leads to a better way to make your point. By actually saying what you'd do and why - instead of calling people idiots or erroneously labeling them as cheaters. Especially when conceding isn't cheating under the current rules.

If you are so damn right, surely you want other people to see that? If so, you'd best consider a different tack, because most people aren't going to respond well to the approach you used in this thread.

Oh, and I'm arrogant as well. But not so mind-blowingly arrogant that I think no one else is ever right. Or that I'm never wrong. And that is what the insults are saying, I think.

By dan on Monday, November 19, 2001 - 05:43 am:

Regarding the coin flip incident, we had played out two gruelling games trying to get a normal result. We ran out of time due to my opponents slow play. In those circumstances I feel entitled to due something WITHIN THE RULES, to try to get a result, since a draw was useless. I'd have felt guilty getting into the top 8 that way but people ID all the time and I can't see the difference between an ID (an arranged result) and one player conceding (an arranged result).
Whatever your feelings on this, you should see that it is almost impossible for the rules to be any other way. If I want to lose I'll lose, if I want to draw and the other guy does too, we'll draw. And if I make a deal, I expect it to be respected.

However I can see the reason I didn't make top 8 was that I wasn't good enough. I made mistakes, I learnt, I improved. Thinking the reason was that someone else broke their word would be a mistake.

By The Villain of the Thread, Curses/Foiled on Monday, November 19, 2001 - 03:17 pm:

Yeah, I SO know everything about everything. Look, guys, I don't hate your guts here, as far as this thread is concerned, unless you're flagrantly pro-quitmatching, in which case I just want your blood, period. This entire subject is something of a pet peeve of mine, and while these posts might seem cool and calculated (I said 'might'), I'm actually seething in rage here. It slips into the tone of my writing and might end up offending some peeps I didn't mean it to, but no matter which way you look at it, that's just _plain_ _irrelevant_ compared to the fact that I have made some solid points here - ones that can't exactly be countered with any form of "f*ck you, arrogant b*tch".

Lobo demands to know what I would do in the same situation. It's honestly this simple for me (and should be for everyone else):

1) The other guy offers to quit. I take the free points (I know it's wrong, but hey, I'm no saint. Everybody wants to win, right? Right?).

2) The other guy asks me to quit. This hasn't happened more than once. My exact retort was "look, let's just do this proper like". It went 2-1 for the other guy, but I deserved the shot and he deserved the challenge.

3) Under no conditions I myself ask or expect anyone to quit - hell, the very thought is ridiculous to me. They have paid the tournament fee just like me and have every right to beat the living hell out of my deck if they can, for whatever it's worth to them. And it usually is worth something - at least for me. I mean, we're here for the GAME, right, not just the prizes?

I kind of tend to ignore the scores while the tournament is on and just play as good as I can - an outlook that I heartily recommend to everyone else. The game is, to me, the primary attraction in a tourney while the win plays the second violin (excluding cases such as #1, above - winning is always nice, too).

Score-fixing isn't _technically_ cheating, I know that, but it is a loophole in the rules that WotC should fix. One (partial, suggested) solution could be to set conditions on quitting, such as that you couldn't concede your first match ever, your second match if you won the first, or your third match if there was more than 10 minutes on the clock.

Score-fixing isn't uncommon either, I know that too. But it definitely isn't anything to be proud of (since it harms the tournament, see above), and definitely isn't anything you can DEMAND from your opponent, bitching on the boards because somebody didn't let you win.

By gizzard on Monday, November 19, 2001 - 05:48 pm:

Elrohir says:

If I were UM's opponent, with no chance of making top 8, and she did, I'd concede to her on the grounds that we play a normal match just for the fun of it so that no matter what the outcome, the "true" winner would know.

Well, since Elrohir says this and then talks about personally playing for fun, I've got to ask - Elrohir, would you ask your opponent to concede so you can make Top 8? If not, why not?

By Elrohir (Elrohir) on Monday, November 19, 2001 - 07:20 pm:

Man, go after me, whydontcha. :P

I don't play as much as I used to and I don't play in any competitive circles like I did a few years back. However, I think I see this game in a very, very different light than most people. I'm not out to win big tournaments or anything. It would be nice, but I've been in the top 8 at States, that's good enough for me. Anyway, that doesn't answer the question.

Here's how I typically approach any match: "Hi, my name's Jake. I'm doing pretty good in the tourney(or "My deck isn't doing as well as I expected...etc - small talk mostly). Where are you from? How long have you been playing?" You get the idea. I get to know a little about my opponent while shuffling and whatnot. I'm a fairly friendly guy. If they're doing well, I'll congratulate them on a job well done and hope the best person wins. I've been in this "theoretical" situation before where my winning will put me in the top 8, but losing will put me from it. I have no qualms about asking my opponent if they would consider conceding the game. I don't give myself illusions that they will; I always assume they won't. Either way, I fully intend and expect to play a match with them.

The flaw here lies in your question. Would I ask them to concede? Yes. Would I expect them to? No, and I don't blame them. Any game that's part of a tournament is an official game, and if they can improve their DCI score, good on them. The question now becomes "Why would you even bother asking if you don't care about the outcome?" Because I'm playing for the fun of the game. In the greater scheme of things, the tournament is going to mean nothing but a few random bragging rights to the three or four people I actually know at the tournament. I'll be forgotten by everyone else anyway. When I made top 8, I felt on top of the world, it was an interesting feeling because for once, I was having a really fun time and didn't need to cheat anyone into letting me win. I'm not out to bloat my DCI ranking. I don't go to these tournaments to actually win the tournament. I went because I had some very close friends that I enjoyed playing with in town, and we developed our own random ways to kick the crap out of a lot of people. You know what? I go into every tournament expecting 0-2 drop, yet even after 0-2 I stayed to play just because I liked seeing how my deck worked against other decks. I liked the experience of seeing its flaws against something different. I could just as happily go 0-8 in a tournament as 8-0. For me, the tournament is the best way to play against a cross-section of the Magic community that I otherwise don't get, and it gives me some interaction I otherwise wouldn't seek. The tournament is just a backdrop for the personal experiences I have, not the goal of the day. Yes, I throw away my money intentionally for fun.

In the two times I could potentially make top 8 (one of them successful), there is a thrill that makes you (in these cases, me) find reason to seek higher glory. Magic is a political game, and that's where politics come into play. It's all a mind game. Can I Jedi-fake you into thinking I'm not holding two Giant Growths? Do I think you have that damn Edict that'll screw over my only creature? At that stage of the tournament, the situation becomes different. I *did* have something to play for in addition to fun. At that point, I *did* want to win as much as possible. If I can get a free win out of it, so much the better. I won't rely on expecting an opponent to concede, and it's more satisfying anyway to win and know you were capable of winning. At that point, the tournament does become competitive for me rather than just fun (yeah, I'm repeating), so I start looking for competitive edges. I knew a lot of people who did. If my opponent sees things from my perspective and sees no harm in conceding, fine. I'll take the win and move on. If not, I'll do my damnedest to continue on with my winning ways. Besides, at that point if I've been winning so much, there's no reason the deck would screw me then. Any mistakes would be my own. And I would learn from them just like any other. I don't think I can explain my outlook on the game in any other way. I don't play with the goal of succeeding at any tournament. I play with the goal of bettering myself. Winning is just icing on the cake.

By Matt The Great on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 01:46 am:

"For me, the tournament is the best way to play against a cross-section of the Magic community that I otherwise don't get, and it gives me some interaction I otherwise wouldn't seek. The tournament is just a backdrop for the personal experiences I have, not the goal of the day. Yes, I throw away my money intentionally for fun."

That's pretty much the whole reason I come here.

By Andrew, the Sphinx Slayer (Andrew) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 11:14 pm:

@Dan: Just a point to note in future: It is SPECIFIALLY against the rules to decide the outcome of a game/match by cointoss or dice roll. The listed penalty is, iirc, DQ at all levels. I'm not saying I disagree with what you did, but be careful!

By dan on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 01:40 am:

The tourney was a while ago (Urza's Saga time I think). That rule is amazing, I assume I could use rock/paper/scissors, flip a Chaos Orb or any number of other methods?
Actually the judges said that I'd get a warning, the tourney judge's ruling is law as far as I know (although I believe it was in line with the rules at the time too).
Anyway it wasn't anything I planned, time was running short, both of us needed a win, I offered to flip for it.

By Spin13 (Spin13) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 02:17 am:

Values and opinions don't mean shit. Do what you want, just don't do it around me. Enough of trying to uphold your etiquette and manners. Civility is no more than a point of view. Think for yourself, and only for yourself.

If you're opponent wants to concede, let him. If he doesn't, play him or concede yourself. Stop trying to push your view.


By Andrew, the Sphinx Slayer (Andrew) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 04:28 pm:

Dan: No, it's fairly clear that any random method is not allowed. At the time of saga... I'm not sure. The floor rules were different then. I'm also not 100% sure thatit's a DQ offence, but It's fairly high - it might be a matchloss for both players (which is typically the same for tournament purposes). It's because it drags down the 'professionalism' that WoTC is trying to achieve, and is really unfair to other players (who presumably one of you is jumping over)

By crumbling sanctuary on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 07:25 am:

I was playing against my bro, and we both had good changes to make it to top8. we played a draw, and still both of us had changes to go top8, if all other games goes like we wanted to.I decided to concede to my bro, so even other one of us makes it to top8.(i thought he had better deck, and better changes in top8 so...) I lost a few bucks in there, but my bro won the tournament and gave me a part of his winning, and everyone was happy

By HengeWolf on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 02:34 am:

I personally think ID's and such are bad for the game, it gives an unfair advantage, and skews the game just slightly toward those who have more friends or teammates that they can bargain with. It is a rules loophole, but until they close it their's nothing to stop you from exploiting it. Just don't EXPECT other people to go along. What happens when you win a tournament? A few bucks, a few packs, a few people care for an hour or so. It's just a game, and ultimately how well you do at it probably means little or nothing in the long run. It's not much to get angry over, on both sides, but IMO you shouldn't get angry over someone not letting you exploit a loophole. I understand where Cursed is coming from on this, although I'm not so strongly opinionated. Just some late night ramblings . . .

By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 02:40 pm:

Mistress ... would you be any happier if you WON your matchup fair and square and lost on tiebreakers because your neighbour conceded so his opponent could T8 ahead of you.

That guy was going to be a dick to someone, it's just a matter of who. And conceding to you also costs him ratings points, which may/may not matter.

My advice is to let it slide. You cant go into a tourney with the feeling that you are entitled to a T8. just play your games and take things as they can, you can't win em all.

By implode on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 05:37 pm:

I don't condone cheating per se, but when you offer a person nothing for the concession--what motivation is there to take a ratings hit. None! The opponent frankly gets nothing. Since offering something is illegal you didn't want to risk it? Your problem for not having the balls to step aside and ask where NO one can HEAR you.

I would have been a little upset in your situation, however understood that maybe if I build a better deck next time you will beat his.

By gizzard on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 06:02 pm:

Elrohir: I didnt mean to go after you; actually, I picked you because your philosophy seemed similar to my own. I want to play, I want to have some fun. I dont care about my rating at all, I only care about T8 inasmuch as I like winning more than losing. :-) I dont drop if I 0-2, I like to chat with my opponent and have a friendly game.

I was most interested in how you reconciled what I consider the classic "fun player" attitude with "tournament player" goings-on. To me, asking for concession is a "tournament player" thing, something that wouldnt really occur to a "fun player". I suppose its a gray area anyway; no one who goes to tournaments can remain purely a "fun player", and competitive players (despite the stereotype) have some fun while playing this game.

By POOP on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 12:56 pm:

your one fuckin jackass

By Random Scrub on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 01:01 pm:

Well, let's see first of all if you're not ready to see other's opinions, no matter what they be, on this matter then DON'T START POSTING!!
I believe that if you lost then you didn't win and didn't deserve to T8 cause you ain't the best!
So there!

By Demon Lord Gix (Gix) on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 03:24 pm:

Geez everyone, give it a rest!!! We all get it by now; stop beating he dead horse

By Curses/Foiled on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 06:34 pm:


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 02:24 pm:

If I like sadism, necrophilia, and beastiality, am I flogging a dead horse?

By Demon Lord Gix (Gix) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 08:06 pm:

hm.......well that depends...FLOGGING a dead horse is a much more *serious* offense... right up there with kicking a dying moose. Um...nope. I think being a bestial sadistic necrophiliac only qualiies you as tripping over a sleeping cow. A minor offense, at best.

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 12:37 am:

But the cow is not dead. ANd why would I hurt myself? That's masochism.

By Demon Lord Gix (Gix) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 05:40 pm:

>"But the cow is not dead"

That's why it's oly a minor offense. And who am I to say you cant be a masochist bestial sadistic necropheliac?

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 11:17 pm:

It's not necrophilia without death.

By Rico Jones, Elfman Extraordinaire (Rico) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 05:14 am:

Just a thought but was that actually Urza's Mistress?

On the one hand it would require a considerable level of subtlety to try and undermine UM's name this way and no one has posted under UM's name denying that the above statements are UM's but on the other hand this seems out of character to say the least.

What do you think?


By Rico Jones, Elfman Extraordinaire (Rico) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 05:40 am:

I just ran a search for all posts authored 'urza mistress'. It looked like there was a steady succession of posts under that name leading up to this post. This reduces greatly the likelyhood that someone was posting falsely under the name urza's mistress because the real urza's mistress probably would have responded. Seems like my previous post is invalidated. It's an interesting idea anyway.

Still seems out of character though. I suppose people get upset sometimes. Go figure. Certainly threw me for a loop.


By Serra (Serra) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 06:46 am:

well, that was an interesting thread

my opinion is, conceding is a bunch of crap...UNLESS you are down to 1 life and yer opponent is going to kill you...this happens in nearly every game...you concede because you are going to lose and you may as well save a minute for the next game because many matches go overtime

this situation actually backfired on Blinky (my now wife for those who don't know) once....it wasn't states, not even sanctioned, just some little tourney at a comic shop, but it was her first (and my 3rd)...I was already out of it and she was playing our friend and he would be into the semis if he won, so she let him win thiking she had no chance...later we found out that she would have made it in herself if she had won..turns out he lost in the semis and noone got squat...i was a bit upset at her, because like some have said above, what's the point of this game, if we are just going to throw games so person X can get in or not?

It's like I say with sports odds, why play the game if Vegas knows who is going to win...because half of any game is luck, the way the ball bounces, the way the cards are drawn, etc...sometimes it goes yer way, sometimes it doesn't...deal with it.

btw, for those who read this, I may very well be the new maintainer here :D

Add a Message

This is a public posting area. If you do not have an account, enter your full name into the "Username" box and leave the "Password" box empty. Your e-mail address is optional.