Why No One likes T1

Beyond Dominia: The Rumor Mill: Why No One likes T1

By Mikey on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 12:52 am:

I don't post here very often, but I watch quite a bit, and I'm a bit disgusted with the people that frequent this mill. I don't happen to like Legend, and I don't like Random-Miser, but I also see how people slam them at every given opportunity. If you don't like someone, that's fine. If someone says something stupid, then by all means, tell them, I'm not saying that everyone needs to be nice all the time, but it seems like you guys don't even bother to think about what they're saying before you flame them, especially Random-Miser. You guys have this elitist "we're the best T1 players" mentality going on and whether it's true or not, it's an instant turn-off for those of us that are thinking of switching over to the T1 scene. Whether you want to believe it or not, occasionally us scrubs who like to build our own decks come up with something good. I'm not saying that I never see original ideas here, I'm just saying that they immediately get dismissed, until someone forces them down your throat at NG. I'm not suggesting that ICT is, or ever will be, a good deck. Personally, I take issue with Sedge Troll, I mean, of all the creatures in the T1 pool, I'm sure you could find something better than Sedge Troll. Hell, you might as well play with Pit Spawn, as long as we're gonna chuck a random creature in there, at least it's got a cool ability. I'm just wondering if it's ever occured to you people that maybe the reason that T1 slides further and further down the list of formats people play is because we start reading the message boards here and realize that a majority of the people that are available to play with are pretensious, self-righteous @$$holes. The MTG internet community is not all that large, and BD has more good players on its mills than say, Wizards. That's not just the T1 mill, that's all mills. I look at the T1 mill at MTGNews, and the decks are a far cry from what I see here. However, at least the people are accepting of other people, I don't see the uncalled-for flaming of posters. I've posted a couple of decks here, and they always seem to disappear, whether that's due to Rakso deleting them or me somehow screwing up when I post, I don't know, and don't really care. All I know is that you sit in here, telling each other that you guys really are the best, and maybe you are. But personally, I think a lot of you are just dicks, and I don't care what your rating is, people like that just ruin the game.

My Two Cents,
Spikey Mikey

By dan on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 01:15 am:

Personally when I submit a deck I'd rather have useful comments than polite ones.
I think that when a beginner's deck is posted it usually receives fairly gentle treatment, when someone posts a deck sporting Power 9 and states it beats everything 90% then it gets the full treatment.
ICT gets badly treated because of Random Misers attitude, most people like Sedge Trolls although not in a control deck (I guess a real URb aggro control deck could in theory run them).

By Acolytec (Acolytec) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 01:21 am:

Unfortunately, I think that the problem is more widespread than just t1. I personally think that 65 percent of magic players are selfcentered assholes with no social skills. Thus, I play online so I don't have to deal with them in real life. The other 35 percent are very nice intelligent fantasy loving gamers but it is simply not worth dealing with the pissants.

By Matt The Great on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 01:32 am:

Who keeps ratings? I find it a lot easier to get by here without ever having played in any sort fo formal Magic game whatsoever. Yet you're right. A lot of people here are pretty mean-spirited and bragg-y, even when then CAN back it up. But, just like real life, you have to learn how to get along with people you don't like and probably never will.
I never really saw Random-Miser as a problem. I just laughed whenever I'd see something that was obviously crap. Or, say, in the chatroom, when people would take issue with him, I'd laugh then too, because it was always obvious that the people who constantly berated him and his deck were giving him just what he came for - attention. And I laughed at all the people who couldn't figure that out. I still do. And then I go play PT Funk against someone, and all is good.

The msot important issue you bring up is definitely the fact that, unless your name is Legend/Rakso/Azhrei or some other BD "big shot," your threads have just a hair's breadth more of a chance than the proverbial snowball to see the light of day for more than six hours. Often this is because quieter posters are newer and their questions are easily answered, but not always. I think the best thing this board could do for itself would be for the supposed "best players in Type One" to take the time to answer newbie questions or to really explain why such a card isn't good, and so on. Much as the top Pro Tour champions are expected to give something back to the community. That kind of giving back obviously can't be mandated, but it would be a great thing to see more of.

Thank you for your time,

By shade2k1 on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 01:36 am:

Well said, Mikey. Especially concerning the "vanishing posts," which happen to me frequently here. It's a big reason why I rarely post here, though I'm a huge T1 fan, and have been playing MtG since virtually the beginning. If some ppl would quit acting like they're GOD (and this applies to most T2 players nowadays, as well), and maybe CERTAIN mods around here didn't abuse their powers, things would improve on the T1 scene. Alas, this is the sad state of things now. The game is tilting more and more towards the rich ($20 for a Shadowmage Infiltrator?! I can't WAIT to get my foil one and sell it! :) ), and that's just sad.

P.S. I give this post about an hour before it, too, mysteriously "disappears." :(

By Barktooth Warbeard (Barktooth) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 03:03 am:

Paragraphs = Tech.

By Earl Sepulchrave (Earl) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 03:08 am:

I agree. Perhaps there should even be another board for the newer or more casual (like me) players. But if that happened, there would be no feedback from the experienced people, and thus no productivity.
Yes, productive comments are better than polite ones, but NO comments kind of sucks.
It doesn't seem quite fair to me - I have some reasonably good ideas and all, but they are largely unnoticed. And I see the same thing happening with countless other interesting posts.
However, posts by the better players get many many replies no matter what sort of boring crap they are - latest 1-card change to Keeper, what Legend Blue will do w/o FoF. This is an unreasonable, unfair attitude and it needs to stop
We need to encourage innovation and stop stultification. People, please take the time to consider those without ()'s, and those who do have them but don't always speak up.
I am bitter about this. I hate the way people can group themselves and exclude others. It happened to me in middle school, but I would have liked to think that intelligent, rational people like there are here could avoid it. I guess not. Thank you, BDominia regulars, for lowering my opinion of human nature.
(And did anyone notice how Rakso, Legend, et al, have not spoken up on their side. Perhaps people find it easier to bypass unpleasant topics instead of dealing with them.)

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 03:41 am:


I think a lot of you are just dicks, and I don't care what your rating is, people like that just ruin the game.

I think this statement says it all.

First of all, how can Rakso respond when he's 12 time zones away? Duh.

As for deletions, I suppose you were posting all the illegal decks? The deck guidelines are on the home page and they've been clear enough for the last three years.

Also, I've been answering newbie questions for the past three years. I still do, but only when there's a real question to answer instead of the usual, "Here's my deck. (Can you please figure it out and read my mind that I'm going to get mad and blow up when you say take out the Arcane Denials?)"

As the board moderator, I've heard all this before and I have one very important thing to say:

A lot of these so-called newbies are inconsiderate assholes who expect some regulars to create a miracle and make their Threshold Deck win the next Invitational T1.

Others think that by calling themselves "newbies," they have the right to be inconsiderate pricks who complain whenever they get criticism on the decks they post with, "I have won five 6-man tourneys" or "I am in the top 100 in Type I of my state."

Especially when they butt into conversations by saying, "I'm no expert in blue but I think you can use Arcane Denial," I'd be the first to say they deserve to get a box of Odyssey junk rares stuffed up their anuses.

Then, when they're ignored, they call the entire Mill population elitist.

Some "newbies" ask clear questions and take criticism quite nicely, and actually listen to what they're told. I've never heard complaints from them. I remember, for example, when Elrond was new here, along with a bunch of other guys.

Also, a lot of the people who find the conversations "boring" are usually the same people who don't read them enough to understand them in the first place. I know. And in addition, when I write the same things I post as Star City articles, I end up with good feedback.

Clear enough?

And of course, complaining about deletions here means you have zero credibility with me.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 04:26 am:


Especially concerning the "vanishing posts,"

Follow the posting guidelines instead of making not-so-subtle sweeping accusations, buddy.

By Nameless, the Mysterious Man of Signed Anonymous Posts (Nameless) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 05:11 am:

I'd just like to add another important point...

A lot of times we see people post decks or deck ideas, and those decks very quickly get shot down. Why? Well, I know I've personally been posting here for over a year now... That being said I've seen and tested dozens upon dozens of ideas for decks and card uses myself. Now if I take that same logic and transpose it on even a small fraction of the others who have been here longer then me I can see that a lot of ideas that are likely to pop up have already been tested, and failed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... The next time you post a deck trying to use X card at least look at some of the other posts or do a search first to see if we already have a thread lasting two weeks talking about exactly that, and the results. Sure a lot of posts are gone now, and in those cases it's very acceptable to ask some questions again... But, at least check and see why nobody is using, oh say... Legacy Weapon in Keeper?

By Big Blue on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 05:52 am:

Truth be told I don't think BD has such an impact that it either prevents people from or induces people to play T1.

It is just a discussion forum - probably the best one as far as T1 discussions are concerned but that's it.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 05:55 am:

Legacy Weapon?

Oh, you elitist pig! NickF already posted a thread about how he successfully played his casual Keeper with Weapon tech to win an FNM!

Shame on you for not checking first! ;)

By Molot, Dark-Elf Timelord on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 02:13 pm:

so no matter how good the synergy with Arcaine Denial is in my deck I'm not aloud to mention it here. Got ya. So I guess I will not be posting my deck here.

By Elrohir (Elrohir) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 03:01 pm:

To be quite honest, Molot, good. This is the Rumor Mill - there shouldn't be any decks posted here anyway. :) Odd as it sounds, while I'm a big advocate of putting off topic posts or general posts in the Rumor Mill instead of in the T1 Mill saying "community" with the title, this is one of those threads that actually belongs in the T1 Mill with "community" in the title. Eh.

By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 05:31 pm:

from the Draw-Go Primer:



Cost: 1U
Rarity: Common
Set: Alliances

Errata: Counter target spell. Its controller may draw up to two cards at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep. ; You draw a card at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep. [Oracle 99/11/01]
Rulings: The player does not choose how many cards to draw until the beginning of the appropriate upkeep. [Duelist Magazine #13, Page 26] They choose how many before drawing the first one. [D'Angelo 96/11/11]


By ETP on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 05:38 pm:

If you happen to like bad cards.. which i do, then either post them in the Casual Mill.. or explain that certain cards are a personal choice regardless of their quality and wait 1-3 days for Rakso to delete your post (Happens to me all the time and i dont mind)

If you want a creative and innovative deck to get real recognition, then post comments before, during and after the decklist, discussing your EXPERIENCES during ACTUAL PLAYTESTING against REAL OPPONENTS who are playing NON-RETARDED DECKS. Then, simply capitalize all the words and phrases you intend to be condescending and you will fit right in.
(dont tell 'them' but im actually on your side.. why should the t1 mill be all about competitive t1.. just cuz its in some silly rule.)

By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 06:18 pm:

I'll tell an slightly different tale here. About a month ago I had almost made up my mind to leave Beyond Dominia for good, after being a staple here for about 4 years and change now. In fact, things had gotten so bad that I had actually said to myself that I was going to give it a week and then ghost if even come back. I even had BD off my bookmarks.

What made me change my mind was a thread I had made regarding the T1 at Comix in October, where Matt D'Avanzo would be visiting me. It quickly degenerated into ribbing and comraderie that I hadn't seen around here in months. It kept me here, and here I shall remain for as long as I desire.

But why did I want to leave, I am sure some of you are wondering. Well, I'll let you in on a little secret then: I couldn't take it any more.

The bitching.

The moaning.

The whining.

The sheer incompetence and the refusal to show the proper respect to the people on this board who really know what they're talking about.

Whether it was someone talking about how great their 70 card 15 land Nether Void deck is, using Pernicious Deed 'tech' in Keeper, how the Abyss is bad because it kills your own Gorilla Shaman, how FoF isn't broken, how FoF is better than Ancestral Recall, explaining AGAIN why Arcane Denial is unplayable, or having someone take a great idea and ruin it by adding their own inferior twist on things.

Let me inform you of how things were back in 1998 and early 1999 here. There was me, a guy named Spike, and SliverKing who were basically the whole mill. In fact, for a while it was almost just me with periodic appearances from Exeter. Between us, we answered EVERYTHING. Every single little post, no matter how bad, got help.

Time passed, and BD grew into popularity, I like to think in no small part because of my Star City articles and Rakso's work as well. Right now, BD is THE place to discuss high level Type One. Simply put, I don't have the time to both improve my own game by talking with similarly capable and competitive players and help out every single guy that comes in here playing a 5 color deck with no Cities of Brass but 4 Barbed Sextants.

Am I elitist? Possibly, but I've also earned the position if I am. Have I paid my dues and done my part for all the newbies that have come and gone? Hell yes. Is it someone else's turn to pick up the slack? YES. It's high time the mid-range players started pulling more of their own weight IMO.

To be fair though, it's simply not worth my or anyone else's time to explain why Fires of Yavimaya should not show up in a T1 deck. That's just stupid. I'm not going to address something like that, neither should anyone else, and kudos to Rakso for keeping junk like that from cluttering the mill.

And, in conclusion: read the primers, the T1 Mill is for tournament level decks only, decks with Arcane Denial belong in the Casual Mill, and a lot of people need to recognize that maybe, just maybe, if they'd accept the fact that there are some people here who really know what's up and show them some respect and listen to them, then those people might be more willing to teach.

You can't even begin to know how many times I've been the target of personal attacks far worse than this, either. If you're wondering why I haven't posted here earlier, it wasn't until JP pointed it out to me that this even showed up on my radar.

By Puschkin, Defiant Vanguard Against The Phyrexian Invasion (Puschkin) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 06:30 pm:

Hey, this is the last place where you can discuss serious Type I magic! They (we) are so happy about this that we sometimes forget the newbies. But the old "elitist" issues has (at least) 2 sides! Don´t forget:

1.) People hanging out here for a while can get bored answering the same beginner´s questions again and again.

2.) There is the Casual Mill for "low level" Type I decks.

3.) It can be vice versa: The expert does give good advice and the newbie does not listen ... happend to me oft enough in the Casual Mill (ZorroX for example - although he does pay attention now)

4.) Type I strategy is the most complex one with many layers of concepts. Sometimes you would have to write 5-page-articles to explain a single card choice to a newby.

5.) Experienced player´s posts get more attention because he posts more often and because he is a member of a community - it´s mor likly that you answer him if you are familiar with his likings and points of view. And you can write more. On top of that you might have made good friends or you might even behave like an old couple like Ahzrei and Rakso do!

6.) People´s minds heated up during the Phyrexian Invasion and aren´t cooled down yet. Before 2001 we had nearly zero spammers and bad attitude dudes here. Really, there were NO flames here just a year ago!

7.) The gap between Type I and the rest of the Magic community is widening every day. Over 20 expansions. 5000+ cards. About 10 generations of players. No Type I play in the Invitational. Everybody and his Sister of Flames plays Limited or Type Screw.

8.) Lacking knowledge on both sides. The average player has no clue about Type I, just some rumors. And the average Type I freak has no clue how it is to be new to Type I (if you are playing less than 4 years!). This leads to prejudices.

Why don´t all you "elitists-haters" help each other out and answer each other´s treads? It´s half the regular´s fault if your newest unconventional rogue gets only 2 messages! Why did´n you drop some lines in the "Seriously Casual Series" in the Casual Mill?

So, please, don´t start another thread about complains, flames and whining, post some decks instead.

By mathusalem on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 06:34 pm:

So they delete any deck with arcane denial hey? Well that's what I call censorship. And it's really stupid when it's applied to a game. Which Magic is by the way... I happen to like arcane denial whatever the great "ayatollahs" in here say.
by the way Rakso it's pathetic the way you get offended. I think you can't handle critics. And this is very bad for your own credibility. And I mean, as long as you delete posts and cry out that you're right, you can always PRETEND that you are but...
It deplete the "ayatollahiesque" aura you're trying to give when your being so unable to handle critics. I think most of your rebutal was not even relevant.
You should take these critics in stride instead of being offended that's for true wisdom my friend. And I agree with a lot of posters on this thread : a lot of tourney magic players, be them t1 or t2, are quite ennoying. And they Keep thinking, it seems, that they have a major role in some great cosmic scheme, Magic is just a Game. Give casual players a break and allow them to post their decks even if doesn't go with your damn dogma. stop being so conceited.Let's play for fun at last and stop pretend we're at some great mass.

And remember dear "Ayatollah" you're not a god you are only human like all the kids that post here : show a bit of humility.

Well now dear Rakso you can cancel my post but would only be one further evidence that you can't handle critics.

Mathusalem (casual play advocate)

By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 06:46 pm:

"On top of that you might have made good friends or you might even behave like an old couple like Ahzrei and Rakso do!"

He sure is my bitch.

"Well that's what I call censorship."

No, it's called "eliminating idiocy" and at any rate free speech doesn't necessarily exist online. I for one am in serious favor of getting rid of obvious junk.

"Which Magic is by the way... I happen to like arcane denial whatever the great "ayatollahs" in here say."

That's fine-- I like Inferno a lot but I'm not about to say that using one makes my deck do anything but suck.

You know who's AAAAAnnoying? People who like to bitch because other people point out they don't know much. You want to talk about credibility? Try *earning* some yourself first.

I'm going to say this one more time:


I HAVE casual decks, with Polymorph and Polar Kraken and all kinds of shit-- BUUUUUUT I am smart enough to realize that 1) it's not a good deck and 2) it belongs in the casual mill, not the T1 mill. Casual decks are AWESOME and are GREAT FUN but they belong ELSEWHERE.

By Sssmwc, Keeper of the Funker (Sssmwc) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 06:48 pm:

One of the most common misconceptions about T1 is its 'elitist nature' or that you need to have p9 to succeed. At a recent prerelease I was looking at the RAW DEAL CCG singles a dealer had and discussing the differences b/t the typical RAW DEAL and T1 Magic player. The dealer made the point that she started playing RAW DEAL to get away from the snobbery and 'must have this card to win' nature of T1 and instead played RAW DEAL since it was more casual. Over the course of a couple of RD matches that were won on turn 3 by her a couple of times and on turn 2 by me once, I noted to her how one or two cards were entirely key for either of us to win early or at all.

The point of this rambling and possibly incoherent parable? Any game can be casual. Any game can be elitist. It all depends on your perspective and how you want to play the game.

By mathusalem on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 07:01 pm:

I see Azhrei that you don't see the point. Which doesn't make you as smart as you claim you are. You react, as I pointed out like I dogmatist freak who thinks or immagines that he inherited the Truth. And if any one eliminated true idiocy around here such posts as yours would be banned. True tournaments quality decks my fanny ! (notice here dear fellow no use of curse word) Wow i'm so Impressed! You really shine like the guardian of the True Tourney Decks! If you have nothing else to guard you're quite pathetic. And may I point out I'm not arguing because someone may say I don't Know much about magic , I couldn't care less, I argue about your conceitedness. And I met quite a few of your ilk, already and you people really enrage me. If you think it's the proper way to make other, new people, to like this game you are well mistaken. That's for knowing much


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 07:10 pm:

Whatever man. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. All you are is a waste of bandwidth.

Are you European by any chance, or some other place that has a non-English native tongue?

By ETP on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 08:07 pm:

Um, im not much of anything on this forum, and i post decks that suck more than most peoples, but i dont complain if they get moved or deleted, because this forum doesnt belong to me, it belongs to the site moderators...

Rakso: if you are reading this, i would like to request that you do NOT attempt to disprove Mathusalem by way of leaving his posts on the board, you would be a much greater person in my eyes if you removed trash like this.. and when your done, remove my post aswell.

this coming from a man who Does put arcane denial in decks, despite the consequences.

By Burning Ice, the Elementalist (Burningice) on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 10:19 pm:

Alright, look. I'm not trying to be elitist or whatever, but there are many boards on BD. There is a Rules Mill where you post questions about rules. There's a T2 Mill where you post your T2 tournament decks. There's a T1 Mill where you post your T1 tournament decks. If you don't play seriously or whatever, there's a Casual Mill for you. BD has lots of different things for different people. I don't see why it's so hard to stop whining and just post casual decks in the Casual Mill?

Mathusalem (casual play advocate): You say you're a "casual" player. Therefore, it would make sense to me, to post your decks in the "casual" mill.

By GDarius on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 - 11:27 pm:


1. Arcane Denial gives your opponent card advantage (-1 to play, 0 counters a spell, +1 draws you a card, -1 draws your opponent 2). This is BAD unless you plan to win really, really soon. Because it's a splashable counter, the main point is to be able to play it early, so counter-control decks won't be winning anytime soon afterwards. Therefore, even IF Mana Leak didn't exist, this card would only fit into Combo decks. There are no good combo decks in T1 right now, therefore Arcane Denial doesen't belong in T1. Just stating the facts. People who despite constant evidence and advice decide to post Blue Control with Denials deserve to have their threads deleted (unless they show a specific reason as to why Denial is better than the alternative in that situation instead of saying "I like Arcane Denial!").

2. As I understand it, Random-Miser was ignored and laughed at not because he came in with a bad deck, but because he came in with a bad deck and claimed it beat Keeper, Parfait, BBS and several other decks very consistantly. He then proceeded to challange anyone at BDominia to beat his "Invincible Counter Troll". It was his attitude, not his deck that earned him cold shoulders.

3. Even though I by no means consider myself "elite", I find myself posting to "elite's" threads more often than anyone else's in the T1 mill. This isn't because I don't like new people, this is because my preferred decks in T1 right now are Acc. Blue, Counter-Burn and Parfatit, newbies generally don't discuss these with any degree of intelligence and if they do, I post on those threads as well. Personally, I don't find discussing why T1 Blu Fires isn't "da bomb" an enjoyable way to spend my time.

4. Threads sometimes disappear because no one wants to post to them. NO ONE, not just Rakso or Legend. It happens a lot, and it didn't feel too good to see my R/W/G Beats deck ignored at the T2 mill, but if no one wants to say anything, it could mean your deck sucks beyond hope of saving. Live with it instead of bitching to the world about how you don't have mainstream ideas.

My two cents, peace out


By BeBe, the Redeemer (Bebe) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 12:11 am:

I have been around bdominia for quite a few years as well. I've watched it evolve. There was a time when many of us treated it casually and posted decks that were clearly experimental and would never win tournaments. I rarely play at a sanctioned event these days but I do play and occasionally win Type 1 tournaments.

Over the last year or so I noticed fewer and fewer responses to my posts. Of course the decks I posted were not close to Tier 1. They were the ones that always went 3-2 or 2-3 at tournaments. I could knock out a decent deck only by capitalizing on my opponents mistakes. I posted some of the first Dreams, Pox, Assault and Counter/Blast decks back then but really these are not competitive decks. If you post Pandeburst or Squirell/Craft don't expect serious responses.

Now Rakso knows me pretty well by now. I have stopped posting decks that are clearly meant for fun on the Type 1 mill. I don't bring them to tournaments too often anymore either. I play a good Black or a good Blue deck almost exclusively if a prize is on the line. So why pretend my other decks are competitive.

I get annoyed at the comments made to a lot of threads. People who clearly do not have enough tournament experience are quick to negate THE EXPERIENCED PLAYER'S comments. I am hardly elitist. I call myself King of the Scrubs. But do show some respect to those that have earned it.

In my part of the country I have earned respect from my playing skills and not my theoretical skills. If I comment on a deck it is because I played it or it was played against me.

Feel free to delete all my threads that do not belong. I know that I occasionally will post a deck just to get a rise out of someone ( but not as blatantly as Doomsday :)) And they say I have a warped sense of humour at times.

bebe - King of Scrubs

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 12:42 am:

I see both sides of this issue quite clearly, so I figured I should say something here...

Some of the most experienced players do have that bad attitude. To an extent, they have earned the right to use it...thus they do. It does get tiring listening to and answering the same/similar questions about the same/similar decks time and time again. So...what can be done to solve the problems on both sides? Ideally, the newer/younger/inexperienced players could do a little work on their own, read up on current history of the format, etc., and the so-called "elitists" could be a little more understanding and tolerable. Realistically, however, nothing can ("will" is a better word, there) be done, most likely. The pro's will continue being a bit snobbish because, well, the people before them did the same thing, and now they feel it is there turn. The lower level people will continue asking the same questions, as each generation before them has. Why is this? Because, frankly, humans are jerks that way ;) End of story or no? Heh...no offense. Peace.

By shade2k1 on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 12:42 am:

"Follow the posting guidelines instead of making not-so-subtle sweeping accusations, buddy."

Sorry, Rakso, but I DO follow the posting guidlines here. I am a mod myself, after all. The first couple of times it happened to me, it was written off as a side effect of Phyrexia's flame war with BD. Then, I thought that maybe someone here just didn't like me. Now, when I see foolishness like the Doomsday thread allowed to remain open, while honest threads are being closed left and right with ZERO explanation, I starts to get VERY aggitated VERY quickly. And, before you decide to play the "newbie" card on me, odds are I've been playing Type 1 longer than YOU have. So, please try to post something constructive instead of attempting to silence me, or dismiss my rants as those of an uninformed "newbie."

Btw, why was this moved to the rumor mill? It was FAR more appropriate where it originated from.

By shade2k1 on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 01:00 am:

"As I understand it, Random-Miser was ignored and laughed at not because he came in with a bad deck, but because he came in with a bad deck and claimed it beat Keeper, Parfait, BBS and several other decks very consistantly. He then proceeded to challange anyone at BDominia to beat his "Invincible Counter Troll". It was his attitude, not his deck that earned him cold shoulders."

I understand that this can be VERY annoying (I've seen his ICT posts on MTGNews and Wizards' boards before they arrived here), but how is this any different from the recent Doomsday deck post? Answer: the Doomsday post was made by BD regulars and mods, so it was allowed to stay. I know how to play this game, and it's a VERY vulnerable deck, even with all the stall tactics. However, since the "greatest" players of BD posted it, though, then surely they already know this. Right? ;)

By Burning Ice, the Elementalist (Burningice) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 01:29 am:

From what I understand, this isn't really a "Rumor Mill" but a "Stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else + Rumors Mill". This post is not T1 strategy, while it is based on the members of the Mill. Therefore, it is perfect for this place.

By dan on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 01:32 am:

Ok here is my position. BD is THE place for type I. Period.


If you have tried other sites and/or mailing lists (mtg-strategy-l) you'll know that 95% is useless bandwidth which could have been avoided by reading FAQs or searching a little before posting. The type I mill is much better, I'll live with my posts occasionally getting deleted or moved. There is a price to pay for everything.

If you want an elite site, it is inevitable that the elite will produce the lion's share. Live, learn, improve and remember it's just a game.

By TracerBullet on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 02:23 am:

I think Shade's got a point on this one, Rakso. The Doomsday Joke was a gigantic waste of time, bandwidth, and most importantly, people's trust. When you delete a post, most of the time, I agree with you. When you don't allow the same restrictions upon yourself or the other old guard, you lose the respect not only of the people new the boards, but also of people like myself who come by frequently but are not the T1 gods. I had a post in your little doomsday joke that was meant in good humor. It got deleted. True, you have the right to delete that if you don't like it, but that also means that we don't have to respect you for it. Earning the respect of the people on BD will require you showing respect and dignity on your own boards. Without their respect, you will hear bitching, moaning, and flames every so often simply because they see no reason not to. To tell you the truth, I have very little respect for you left after the little joke-gone-way-too-long.
As people have said, this is the only serious Type one mill left. Please, for god's sake, let's not lose this over something so childish as an inside joke.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 02:36 am:


old couple like Ahzrei and Rakso do

Excuse me, but we're a threesome with Matt.

I challenge the elitists to a contest. Count the number of times you've ever said Arcane Denial sucks on the Type I Mill.

Winner gets a Keldon Battlewagon. ;)

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 02:43 am:

I think people have enough input on why I've been less lenient on the "competitive decks go here" policy of the Type I Mill.

I rarely delete posts that are obviously going towards a certain strategy but have several flaws due to inexperience, but I think I (and others) know what posts are obviously random bull.

This isn't to say that newbies aren't allowed, but I think it's fair to say you should at least read up on what's there.

By Molot, Dark-Elf Timelord on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 03:59 am:

ok, I think I should clairify my standing on Arcaine Denial. I am in no way saying that this is a good counter. It is not even close to one of the top 10 counters. but in a couple of the decks I play (in a metagame that is nowhere near what Neutral Ground's is) I win most of the games I play. I play AC in a deck with underworld dreams, I essentially kill my opp by making them draw cards uintil there dead. And I also play it in a library crush deck, where the less cards that are in their deck is the better. and I understand that I am new to BD but I have been playing magic since the very begining. and I think I might have something useful to say sometimes. I am going to post my deck, in the casual Mill so as to not upset the regulars, and maybe someone will get to see it before it gets the axe. oh and I never did intend to post a deck list here Elrohir. I would be happy if the Mod's did pick it apart, it may accually help out, that is if they would lower themselves to post on my humble creation. the post will be called "Blue Brary Crush" please take a look, should be posted by the weekend.

thanks for listening


By hellion, THE on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 05:27 am:

A nice scrub example came from me when I posted about gaea's blessings instead of twister and y.will in 5c control. It was promptly deleted and noone came to reason at that time, but now I realize you simply can not win in time with blessings.

"Good deck" in the t1 discussion mill is a deck which kills fast and doesn't give the opponent much choice. "Good deck" in your local group may be some deck which can take out 2-3 casual players at the same time with all kinds of recursion, survival and life-gaining spells.

After I had my first tourney (a casual one, but with some lotuses and powered environment) experience with my powerless casual t1 academy deck, I realized, speed is also important in a tourney. -And I became 3rd! yey!-

Rakso: I was still thinking in casual terms that time. My mistake. But the name "T1 mill" gives only an obscure idea about what the mill is about. It should actually be called "The T1 POWERED ENVIRONMENT TOURNAMENT QUALITY DECK DISCUSSION MILL". So people do not post non-tournament t1 decks and/or non-tournament card ideas for present decks.

If I was at a tournament, trying to win within the tournament time allowance, of course I would choose to try to kill faster.

By Zherbus (Zherbus) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 07:45 am:

Low powered decks, and competitive decks are two different things.

We always accomidate someone who says "I dont own any moxen, so please dont recommend that."

We usually hit the back button as soon we see something like, "this is my decklist for the two headed..."

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 08:35 am:


It is not even close to one of the top 10 counters. but in a couple of the decks I play (in a metagame that is nowhere near what Neutral Ground's is) I win most of the games I play. I play AC in a deck with underworld dreams, I essentially kill my opp by making them draw cards uintil there dead.

Yeah, but if you're not set up, it's tougher to set up with Arcane. It's almost like saying Vision Charm is good for a Millstone deck. :)


It is not even close to one of the top 10 counters. but in a couple of the decks I play (in a metagame that is nowhere near what Neutral Ground's is) I win most of the games I play. I play AC in a deck with underworld dreams, I essentially kill my opp by making them draw cards uintil there dead.

Funny but I've never deleted such a thread unless it went to the bottom. Considering some play Oath Keeper, there's reason to play Blessings like CF does, and that's not quite in the random league. :)


It is not even close to one of the top 10 counters. but in a couple of the decks I play (in a metagame that is nowhere near what Neutral Ground's is) I win most of the games I play. I play AC in a deck with underworld dreams, I essentially kill my opp by making them draw cards uintil there dead.

Indeed! ;)

By Molot, Dark-Elf Timelord on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 06:05 pm:

I posted my deck in the casual mill, please check it out and give some constructive critizium



By GDarius on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 08:24 pm:

Just to clarify; I don't think that the Doomsday joke was too damned funny. I think it should have been taken down right away, or not even posted in the first place.

IMHO: if the rule about crappy decks is in place and being enforced (and it is as can be seen with the example of Random-Miser), then it should apply equally to all posters, including the "elite".

The main reason people gave Kryptonite.dec any weight is because some of the regulars here came up with it. If it was a new guy, then it would have been ignored. But why is this? Well, mainly because the regulars have been here long and are well known as credible people and good T1 players, while randoms are new and unproven so people are less likely to trust them.

Is this just? Probably not, but it's logical. Also, many of you fail to mention the results; what happens after a joke like this perpetrated by regulars? Those people lose credibility with people that used to trust them completley. People also become more cautious when trusting any posts.

Public opinion shifts away from the untrustworthy and justice has been served. The end. Unless of course we're all stupid and continue to trust everyone blindly, in which case we're none the better for this experience. But then that becomes an intelligence issue rather than a moral or social one.

My other 2 cents. Peace out.


By NaClz (Saltz) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 08:24 pm:


I've had posts ignored and deleted before. My first thought was, "Damn Rakso and his...[Stream of Expletives]." However, having been here for enough time to see newbies (some become great, others...), flamers, and general arse-holes, a few things have become clear to me.

Yes, Rakso's deletion of posts is censorship. However, if a post is stuck at the bottom of the mill for a while, there's no real use keeping it. It's either delete or archive.

Rakso's deletion of things like Miser's posts are, in my opinion, sometimes uncalled for. I dislike the guy a fair bit too, but a lot of his stuff isn't all that bad. I have no problem with him posting help on a deck of mine.

I think that maybe some T1 regulars need to check out the Casual Mill, and those posting "Casual T1 Decks" need to post on the Casual Mill. If and only if both of those things happen, I think we will have many satisfied players. Right now, the Casual Mill gets maybe 5 posts a day. It's hardly a lot to check.

Arcane Denial sucks. :)


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 12:40 am:

Saltz: You misunderstand.

Miser's posts aren't deleted because of content.

Miser's posts are deleted because the guy is sitebanned and every post with "Miser" in the name tends to attract flames.

By TracerBullet on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 02:56 am:

The question is, without trust in the regulars, who do we trust? These innovators we've looked up to (i know I did) are now lying to us, and what's worse, they won't even ADMIT to it. The joke died long ago and still they cling. Personally, I thought about leaving after the little Doomsday joke. People need to be able to trust AT LEAST Rakso, if not the rest of the old guard, in order for the site to remain alive. Honestly, this is the LAST bastion of T1 on the net. Let's not lose Bdominia.

By Earl Sepulchrave (Earl) on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 03:03 am:

May I point out one very important thing:
"Tournament quality" in one area is not what it is in another.
If a player is playing in a weaker environment, perhaps with weaker cards, then it does no help to ignore them. I would venture to say that most T1 players do not have really powerful cards and decks floating around. If a person has posted what seems like a weaker deck, bear in mind that their games are not like yours. For example, my posts on perfectly competent Pox and CounterPhoenix decks are constantly being dismissed because they are only efficient enough for my aggro-ridden scrub metagame.

Also, an Arcane Denial should not make a deck the target of immediate dismissal. Maybe it is in there for sentimental reasons or fun. If the deck itself is bad, it is not too hard to explain the problems or even direct the poster to a place where it is explained. And if they refuse to take criticism because the problems of Arcane Denial are explained, I do not object. They are jerks.

I wish I had posted thi earlier.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 07:50 am:

Earl: Believe it or not, Azhrei plays in that kind of different aggroish environment, which is why his and Matt's decks are like opposite poles. I don't believe such players have ever been ignored, unless they really don't explain their environment in the first place. Certainly, only a moron would run Null Rod in an environment of Tempest and after players. :)

Arcane Denial and Lotus Petal have become the symbols of your "old guard" annoyance, after years and years of ranting against the inclusion of these cards. :) Of course not, but four years of experience says... usually!

By hellion, THE on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 09:55 am:

Arcane denial is not too bad in an arcane lab lock deck and lotus petal is a -staple- in academy. It is also good in enchantress/parfait where you have to put your setup as soon as possible.

If you are going to call cards "bad", because you don't like to put them in your keeper or counter/morphling, then we have a looong list.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 10:05 am:

Um... I think this is the kind of stupidity we were talking about, and you should read the context of all of the above posts.

You should see the long list of posts with Petal as a Lotus replacement in every sort of deck.

Also, Arcane Denial is bad with Arcane Lab, simply because if Lab isn't out, what are you going to do?


By hellion, THE on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 11:03 am:

I did not see a list of posts with petal as a replacement to black lotus and surely they are not above, either. Yes it is stupid.

and.. you made a deck for arcane lab and arcane lab is not out? You get it out!


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 11:08 am:

I rest my case.

By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 10:17 pm:

Rakso, I have as much p9 here as Matt does-- just no control players.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 11:32 pm:

Azhrei: That's exactly what I said, although Matt is the one scared of Stompy. ;)

By Raxar on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 12:42 am:

I would just like to credit Rakso (and if it wasn't him, whoever did it) for making the casual t1 mill. Great idea. My only concern is, will there be a high-level player watching over it, and answering question? It would be great if someone could just oversee the mill and answer all the questions.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 01:28 am:

Um... The Casual Mill has been there for like five years. ;) I've been maintaining it for almost three.

By shade2k1 on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 01:33 am:

With so many regulars starting to head for the doors, this will probably soon be known as "the thread that killed BDominia." Good job, Mikey... ;)

All I ask here is the following:

1) Stop deleting threads for no good reason. Spam MUST be eradiacated, however.
2) Don't contribute to the spam *coughdoomsdaycough* ;)
3) Be more patient and understanding toward newcomers. Well, those without attitude problems, anyway. :(

This could go a long way toward introducing more T2 players to T1 and maybe, just MAYBE, getting some more support from those slackers at WotC. :)

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 01:33 am:

But thanks. :)

By Mahmoud, Bartender, Spetsnaz-trained Bouncer and Orwellian Big Brother (Mahmoud) on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 05:21 am:

die shade2k1

By Paranoid Android on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 09:20 am:

I'm a frequent visitor and poster of many newsgroups and forums and the flaming issue comes up almost everytime. Frankly speaking, I enjoy an intelligent arguement but I really to not wish the type1 or any other mills to become a battlefield between the flamers and the mods.

Nobody likes their stuff to be treated like crap, so before any one deletes anything or move any thread to anywhere, just show a little bit of courtesy, post a little something explaining the situation and I'm sure the poster will understand. I however must agree that there are more and more posters with the smart ass attitude when it comes to posting decks. But who's to stop them if they want to post in the type1 mill? Frankly speaking is anyone complaining about these posts?

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 09:27 am:


Frankly speaking is anyone complaining about these posts?


By BeBe, the Redeemer (Bebe) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 12:53 pm:

Here is my suggestion...
1. Simply move a post that does not belong in the Type 1 mill to the Casual Mill. Notify the poster and explain your reasons in the thread. Then nobody feels slighted.
2. Remove flames from threads without deleting the topic (unless the whole topic is a flame)
3. Remember to *piledrive Legend through a flaming table* - wait that doesn't belong here - sorry.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 03:37 am:

1. That's what we do.
2. That's what we do.
3. That's what we do. It's now a tradition, and should go well with any number of drinking games.

By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 08:30 am:

drinking games?
isn't alcohol prohibited at the philippines?:)

wait, this abu sayaf doesn't control the country i forgot.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 10:17 am:


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 10:38 am:

well, you told me once this sayaf isn't such a big problem in the philippines, and it's exaggerated over here in europe, as i asked you if it is really that bad.
that was a few months ago.
but what do i know

By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 10:42 am:

but if this "joke" insulted you, i apologize for that, rakso.

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