Imagine how insane it would be to write something to teach a guy about Magic!
I'm not volunteering to write that book.
That's it, I think I'll let my pent-up frustrations now.
In recent months we've observed an influx of new visitors to BD. That's very good.
However, some--not all, but some--really have the annoying habit of flaming other people when their obviously untenable ideas are criticized.
The usual excuse is freedom of speech, anti-stereotyping, and nonconformism, but it's obvious to a lot of people that these are weak excuses to mask illogic, bullheadedness and obnoxiousness.
Along these lines, some people have been annoyed by posts in the Type I Mill that begin, "I've only played Type I for 1 week and this is obviously a bad idea, but I think you should..."
I've been receiving complaint after complaint, and I'm really sick and tired of it. See the thread, "Why do people hate T1."
Now, I'd like to solicit opinions on what should be done.
For a moderator, it's difficult and sometimes arbitrary to set operational standards on what constitute idiocy, especially on the Type I Mill.
However, stricter enforcement of the "this mill is for competitive XXX decks and strategy" rule seems inevitable.
To clarify, though, this line of thought is hardly directed against genuine newbies, people who have novel ideas, and honest mistakes. Again, it's just that some people are being a bit too obnoxious about having nothing to contribute.
Perhaps the primers should be edited to be more accessible to new people, or someone should write mini Primer-primers to those primers. Some of them are very long, and posters may not have the patience to thoroughly read all the information despite a genuine desire to learn.
just a possible suggestion.
Personally i really like the long thorough primers, but apparently not everyone does.
Thing is, the short primers are usually good for the people who already know what to do.
For example, things like Stacker and Enchantress already assume people know the basics.
The Sligh primer assumes the guy doesn't know how to play Sealed Deck.
I told Shadow I'd try to fix it by adding links to various sections of the primers, since the software here wasn't designed for posting articles.
Perhaps a primer detailing common newbie mistakes be added, with explicit instructions for new people to read it. One in which important info like: "Please dont just post your decklist." and "arcane denial's in your deck will prolly result in a lack of replies, or prompt deletion" etc. So all the mistakes and the possible consequences of them can be spelled out in detail.
I've thought about this before, and maybe we need a "General T1 Primer". Something that introduces the basics of T1, why certain things that may work in other formats do not work, and how T1 is different from all other formats. Somewhat of a FAQ/Primer hybred thing.
But then we run into the problem of people not reading it, like we do with the primers already. Its an idea at least.
Perhaps we should compose a thread that reads sort of like a "Guide to T1 Magic." By this I mean, something that can act as a Do-it-yourself crash course on magic.
I think back to when I first started back up in June of 2001. I was out of the environment for 5 years. I had so many incorrect assumptions of the game. At the time, I still thought Shivan Dragon's, Serra Angels and Ehrnam Djinn's were kings of the board. It took me a couple months, but I finally figured out that there was so much more. Shortly thereafter, I build Keeper.
Sure, there are primers and stuff posted (some of which are REALLY long), but I think the trick to getting newbies hooked is to show them the fun-filled goodness of T1 in the shortest amount of time possible. It took me over 2 months to get the hang of T1 again. I had to learn the hard way what a Morphling is and how Fact or Fiction is such a great card.
I think if we can provide information in a format that is easy to understand and that is easily learned, more people will come and stay. I know this sounds cheesey, but, I think this would of helped me out.
As for flaming and the such, it doesn't bother me that much. Call me strange, but look at the type of people we're dealing with. Whatelse would you expect from a bunch of teenage males? If someone is constantly being annoying, then do something about it. But I think kicking or banning someone because they say something about your momma is quite ineffective.
Zenvir: I think what you want is that Newbie's FAQ.
Imagine how insane it would be to write something to teach a guy about Magic!
I'm not volunteering to write that book.
"How should idiocy on the Mills be curtailed?"
I think most of this is due to incompetance more than idiocy. People come here to learn, not to be flamed for suggesting suboptimal cards. Anyway in answer to your question, I think that maybe you could take a few notes from the MTGNews boards and do some of the following:
- Create a type of "Lobby" mill, where all miscellaneous arguments can take place. This is bascially what the rumors mill has degenerated into, anyway.
- Create "sticky" posts (i.e. "Why Arcane Denial sucks") and updated primers that are easy to locate to avoid irritatingly repetetive questions/arguments by newbies to the board/format.
- Do not particiapte in the "idiocy" yourself. This means kiss the Doomsday posts goodbye.
You have to keep in mind that you're basically taking on WotC in trying to keep this format alive, and in order to win T2 players over, you can't come off as know-it-all, elitist jerks, which some of you do... ;)
im gonna post another idea.. and if its as unpopular as the last one i posted.. none of you will ever even get to read this introduction.
Make the real T1 a password only forum, and move all the beginners into the casual t1 mill until they earn themselves a password. Hope they read all the primers.
Or
Start a t1 private mailing list, and post the discussions from that list in the T1 mill, but do not let them join in.
either way obnoxious scrubs can look at the posts of good deckbuilders and you dont have to put up with them actually making comments on them.
ETP: But I'd love to have other people come into BD!
Well, maybe we could have a velvet rope and a bouncer... You can be the bouncer...
They would be allowed in, and they could even post.. just not in the serious competitive T1 mill, until they have showed a genuine willingness to learn and at least some skill.
the other people can scrub around in the less competitive mills, and even come into the T1 mill and look around.
Also, we could begin a program, similar to the mtgnews guru thing, in which people from the competitive mill would be asked to spend time in the other mills giving advice.
WE NEED MORE NEWBIES! THIS WAY BDOMINIA WILL LOOK MORE LIKE MTGNEWS!
(This is Kermit btw)
First Point :
Free Speech.
Free Speech is a pile of useless garbage, because most people forget that Responsible Free Speech is the way to go, not just ranting and raving -- thus laws against Slander and Libel.
Second Point:
Nonconformism.
That's all well and good, you can be different just like everyone else. You are, however, inferior, unless you prove yourself -- in which case I, and many others, will listen to your (this is the key part) well thought out ideas, use of actual words, and testing data to support your ideas.
Third Point:
"I've only played Type I for 1 week and this is obviously a bad idea, but I think you should..."
Brick.
Next point please.
Really! This is not a service you pay for, it's a discussion forum with rules, structure and an established group of people who (until lately) have been helpful. The trouble isn't the 'Old Guard' it's the new people who are not listening and assuming they know what they are talking about. If they actually _DO_ know what they are talking about ... GREAT! You are amazingly interesting But how often does that _really_ happen? You are pitting your One Week of Type 1 versus people who have played the _exact same deck for YEARS_. You lose.
Meridian, whom I've argued with a few times, is a big fan of saying 'Beating Bad Players with Bad Decks Does Not Make You Good.' I whole heartedly believe him, the Beyond Dominia Type 1 mill is a place where you can come to learn, and if you know enough, contribute. Make the Art of Type 1 better, not fill it with useless drivel.
The Type 1 Mill is a place where people who decide to make the jump from playing Bad decks against Bad players to being Good Players who play Good Decks, regardless of sentiment or other concerns. It's about showing people how things work. Using Arcane Denial because you want to is just fine with me, but you are INFERIOR for doing it. It _is_ a bad card ... of course you can always try to argue in circles about how 'It's good in this case or that' but you know? how often do you actually play those decks? If you are, is the _deck_ a good one? or is it just another 'Bad Deck vs. Bad Players' thing? THINK! This mill is not a service you pay for, it's a collection of some of the greatest type 1 players to actually take advantage of the voice that the 'Net can give you if you are articulate enough to get your points across, but this game and this format have an insanely steep learning curve. New players are the lifeblood of it, as they learn the game they give new perspectives and new ideas... but only after they learn what happened before, which so many people are ignoring right now.
If you post a bad deck, you should expect to be shot down.
If you post a bad deck, but you ask actual questions and learn something, Yay! that's why we're here.
If you post a good deck, with suboptimal cards and refuse to explain your self, you will be shot down.
If you spam, you will be burnt at the stake.
If you are stupid, disrespectful and the word 'courtesy' is not in your vocabulary, you should be smashed in the head with a Brick.
If all of this causes Rakso to become an evil dictator, which he isn't, I'll be more than a little irked. Many of you out there will make the assumption that since you don't see my posts all over the Mill that I have no clue what I'm talking about, but I draw your attention to my tagline.
Cividel
The Mime
'I Imitate To Understand, and Still They Baffle Me.'
i believe flamers have some general weaknesses of character:
a. they lack true patience and forbearance
b. they fail to recognize constructive criticism , and as such are themselves unable to formulate helpful critiques
c. they mistakenly believe that "freedom of speech" means an absolute and not a responsible privilege
d. would like to play BLUE but are unable to because of the hassle and expense involved in purchasing quantities of Viagra
e. are mostly aolers (just kidding, mostly )
for (a), we cannot undo their genetics upbringing education and environment but we can pray for their peace
for (b), see (a)
for (c), this is mostly a common failing of the american youth, who have breen brought up by CNN
for (d), yes, i am giving an insult; it is a lost art, and its very far removed from flaming, as espoused by Eminem and his ilk
for (e), the net By its nAture provides of a seNse of AnOnimity aLlowing people to feel immune from rebuke or reprisal
*******
this is a tacit vote of approval for the actions so far taken by Rakso .. you do what you have to do .. tis far better for this place to be quieter, flamers WONT be missed
Argee and Cividel... whoa! The grand reunion of BD posters?
So this was as bad as I didn't want to admit it was, then.
BTW, how do we send bricks online?
I agree with what Mtg News has been doing (though I am still very devoted to Bdominia).
What if there were an entire mill devoted to deck advice/general strategy. People could be nominated to be answer-guys. They would have the sole right to answer any stupid, or intelligent (!) questions that might come along. If this service becomes good enough, I can imagine good players going there for advice as well.
Hopefully it will become an honor to be one of the answer-guys. It might earn them more replies to their own strategy posts.
It's just an idea . . .
Silverdragon0
Perhaps you should make the rules at the top of the T1 mill in BIGGER BOLDER LETTERS.. people seem to have trouble seeing them.
"im gonna post another idea.. and if its as unpopular as the last one i posted.. none of you will ever even get to read this introduction.
Make the real T1 a password only forum, and move all the beginners into the casual t1 mill until they earn themselves a password. Hope they read all the primers.
Or
Start a t1 private mailing list, and post the discussions from that list in the T1 mill, but do not let them join in.
either way obnoxious scrubs can look at the posts of good deckbuilders and you dont have to put up with them actually making comments on them."
Don't take this personally, ETP, but this is the WORST idea I've ever heard. All this does is reinforce the elitist attitude that has been mentioned. You should be embracing newcomers to the best format in Magic, not running away in a snobby fashion with your personal "club" of players. All this does is serve to further alienate ppl from the format.
Well, im going on the idea that the T1 forums purpose is the discussion of competitive type one decks and ideas.. and as such there is no need to spend time teaching people in that mill, so all the teaching can be done where it is needed, in the casual mill.
You are basing your thoughts on the idea that the T1 mill is a forum for all T1 concepts and a place for new users to learn. This is not wrong by any means, we just have different views on the purpose of the mill.
I doubt bigger, bolder letters will help anything. Now I'm actually not so sure as to what you guys are alking about, seeing as how i'm strictly a rumor mill person. But maybe you should have some sort of system of punishments, such asblocing certainusers from certain parts of the site, or deleting their posts.
just an idea.
Demon Lord: rakso does that as much as possible, but some people can avoid blocks and people who get stuff deleted generally just write more of the same flames/idiocy. So we cant live with them.. and we cant kill them through their phone lines.. what options do we have?
Quote:But maybe you should have some sort of system of punishments, such asblocing certainusers from certain parts of the site, or deleting their posts
We COULD ban AOL if everyone is really for it...
"We COULD ban AOL if everyone is really for it..."
Translation - "If you're new to the format, or new to the board, or we don't like you, or you use Arcane Denial, you're going to be banned."
Corrupted, much? Sheesh... 
Translation - "If you're new to the format, or new to the board, or we don't like you, or you use Arcane Denial, you're going to be banned."
Man.. i dont know how youve done it, but you have managed to sum up all my feelings completely.
lol, he wasnt serious.. at least i dont think he was... was he?
I HOPE he wasn't serious, but knowing Rakso... ;)
Well, in lieu of sending bricks, you could always "tubgirl" the offenders.
Excuse me?
bdominia, while a public forum, is not owned and operated by the public. Everyone is a guest and some are more welcome than others. People have to realize this, and treat the forums like a gift and not a right.
If someone came to my house and started screaming about poorly conceived deck ideas i would not take it with a grain of salt and pour over the primers with them, i would tell them to grow a brain or get the hell off my lawn.
The T1 forum is not an excercise in civil liberties, it is a place where people can discuss competitive magic decks and theories, under the supervision of your hosts. You are in their house now: wipe your feet, be polite, and for gods sake do not clog their toilets with your crap.
heh.. just wanted to experiment a little with some ranting.
Rakso, why don´t you just turn on your mind control device you are speaking of all the time?
On a serious note: Cividel just summed it all up.
I REALLY hope that the problems we currently have are caused by the fluctuation of many newbies (mostly: new to this site), which is basically a great thing.
After skimming through all the other threads concerning this topic I have the feeling that there will be a happy end. There are enough good hearted souls left and even "unknown lurkers" like cividel stand up for BD! Our goal: Make BD good enough again so that JP Meyer rejoins!
I will weigh in here, which is something I rarely do, more out of boredom on Thanksgiving night than out of passion for the subject.
I hear two different threads of complaints. both valid, but which require completely different methods. The first are the few trolls who come here and flame or pontificate upon the greatness that is The Dark expansion set. This catagory of people includes abusive language, intollerable views, and general asshole-ishness. Here a large stick is required.
However, some people are posted decks that are quite poor. These are newbies, or players whose Type One environments have never evolved into a highly competetive format where there is access to large numbers of cards. They post about how great their new Blazing Effigy deck is. These players I am concerned about, because we need to harness their obvious love of the game and fascination of the format. Newbie Primers, as suggested above might be nice.
There is even a third distinction I would like to make, one that struck me as I am writing. The "Not Quite Ready for Prime-Time" players. They espouse the use of cards that are slightly sub-optimal for the peak of Type One competetiveness, and are growing. Balduvian Horde might not be the best T1 critter out there, but it is hardly a sign of a weak player. Its below the cut for the elite, sure, but it is not a Vug Lizard or something. I think simple understanding of the environment is important here for BD regulars. Someone may be winning their T1 local environment with a well constructed Tradewind-Awakening deck. That such a deck would never be a power Type 1 deck does not deny the quality of card choices, or the ability of the player. They just haven't reached full T1 maturity yet.
Consider the first type Thugs that need to be imprisioned and removed from our community. The second type are young'uns with their own needs. They need primers, and sticky posts, and so forth. And they need our patience.
The third type should best be dealt with on a case by case basis. They need to be shown why Winter Orb or Armageddon are often sub-par choices for Type 1 decks. They are like teens.
Anyways, I'll stop talking now...
Thoughts.
-Anxiety
I suppose you could just line us all up and shoot us, or perhaps, herd us all into some on-line gas chamber, and do away with us all enmass, or you could segrigate us into newbie gettos until such time as we become some kind of cyber-MtG-crack dealers and can extract ourselves from our downtrodden know-nothing shity lives.
Seriously, prehaps I am taking this a bit too personally, but aren't you attempting to make this sight greater than it is? Perhaps you should be flattered by the influx of new people on the boards. Understandably many of these people are not reading the guidelines you set up but as they explore more and more, they will eventually have to read all the primers (well, in a perfect world anyway). I understand now why some of these "newbies" as you call them are upset.
Situation 1
CAUSE: you post a deck deemed substandard in the T1 mill.
EFFECT: it is removed from the listing and relegated to the casual mill, or you are berated for card choices by a few people and not paid attention too again, or it is removed from the sight in it's entirety. (person did not get the disired effect, which was help by the people he looks up to to make his/her deck better)
RESULT: newbie calls Azrhei a self-rightious pretensious-so-and-so and calls Rasko a Nazi, post deleted.
Situation 2
CAUSE: you post your deck in the casual mill (of course your deck should not be deemed substandard here because this is the casual mill after all)
EFFECT: you are berated by a few people for bad card choices and not paid attention to again, or the persons that you REALLY wanted to look at your deck dosen't because it is posted in the casual mill. (person did not get the desired effect anyway)
RESULT: newbie posts saying that all of the Mod's are a@@holes and they only belittle you if they pay attention to you at all.
now call an infinate loop and end with JP and Azrhei leaving the boards. This really sucks!
I understand why some people are so upset, I also understand that only a truely simple mind reacts with vulgarities to get his/her point across, esspecially on the internet. Also someone who posts constantly that they can beat almost anyone with a deck, and I test it against my Ice Age Block cumulative upkeep deck against and I win, should probably have some action taken against them.
I'm just saying that all the points are valid in some way. but to make this sight truely great (which I am assuming you are trying to do), you are going to have to except the fact that new people are going to show up and upset someone until they garner more respect for the sight and the people that run it and post regularly. Or you can expect someone here for the first few times to care at all what your rating is. For that matter, you can't expect someone who has been here for a while to care what your rating is. Be graisous you are the hosts. Extend hospitality, but don't let yourselves be taken advantage of, and on that token don't take advantage of your credibility by posting some ultra-hoax like "Doomsday" ( I actually went through all my old cards and built this deck only to find out that this was a hoax). But these things like passwords to get into the type 1 mill and not being aloud to post until someone else says you can, if they go through, you might as well just delete this board, because you won't garner any new members with them.
The word elitist seems to get mentioned alot here. those thoughts are in there very essance, the deffinition of "Elitist." Like you have your own country club and no blacks or Spanish, and god forbid white trash are allowed.
my 2 cents (well that might be more like a quarter)
Molot
VERY well said, Molot. And, still, most ppl won't get it. It's too bad, really. I come here for the T1 conversation, but everyone else is bolting for the exit because of a little criticism. This alos lends further support to the claims of "elitisism" and "arrogance."
Prove me wrong, boys, prove me WRONG...
You know, I just remembered one thing.
There are pro players who post on Beyond Dominia, and I think I'm the only one who knows who's really who.
Their Type I posts don't get as many replies as you'd expect.
While I don't get many response on the Casual Mill, the responses I get are almost ALWAYS useful. Rarely do I get "your deck sucks my mom" or something like that.
Secondly, the primers aren't nearly as helpful as you'd expect for two reasons. One is that they're not updated (ugh, Amnesia in Keeper). Two is that there are some things that you just can't relate through writing. For example, I didn't really get the hype about FoF. Then I played with it. I wouldn't have thought it was a good card before I played around with it some.
Thirdly, the 3 R's of posting:
1. Respectful
This is really easy. Don't be a jackass. It's as simple as that.
2. Reasonable
This is interesting, in that it stretches 2 ways. Part of it is accepting other peoples ideas, and realizing that maybe you're not always right. The 2nd is more focused on the "Reason" part. Don't just post your decklist! Include Metagame, how the deck works, play testing, etc.
3. Readable
Paragraph Breaks. No all caps. Capital letters are nice too, but I understand those can be hard if English is your second language. I don't really have that much of a problem with bad English, but it really does hurt the eyes after reading 20 lines of text with no periods, paragraph breaks, and random spurts of capitals.
Remember:, Respectful, Reasonable, and Readable. Let's hope we can get this cleared up.
Saltz
While I don't get many response on the Casual Mill, the responses I get are almost ALWAYS useful. Rarely do I get "your deck sucks my mom" or something like that.
Secondly, the primers aren't nearly as helpful as you'd expect for two reasons. One is that they're not updated (ugh, Amnesia in Keeper). Two is that there are some things that you just can't relate through writing. For example, I didn't really get the hype about FoF. Then I played with it. I wouldn't have thought it was a good card before I played around with it some.
Thirdly, the 3 R's of posting:
1. Respectful
This is really easy. Don't be a jackass. It's as simple as that.
2. Reasonable
This is interesting, in that it stretches 2 ways. Part of it is accepting other peoples ideas, and realizing that maybe you're not always right. The 2nd is more focused on the "Reason" part. Don't just post your decklist! Include Metagame, how the deck works, play testing, etc.
3. Readable
Paragraph Breaks. No all caps. Capital letters are nice too, but I understand those can be hard if English is your second language. I don't really have that much of a problem with bad English, but it really does hurt the eyes after reading 20 lines of text with no periods, paragraph breaks, and random spurts of capitals.
Remember:, Respectful, Reasonable, and Readable. Let's hope we can get this cleared up.
Saltz
I have a deck posted in the casual mill now, I have got a few replies, but I am sure if it was on the type 1 mill i would have gotten more (not to mention that it would have gotten the attn of rasko just to tell me that it sucks) but then it might have been deleted in less than a day.
just let me say the loss of JP and Azrhei is really terrible, I have only been here a short time, but as someone said above, they have made me laugh as well. on the other hand taking off because you are getting flamed too much is kind of, well I don't know a good word to put here. I fail to understand why you would let someother person keep you from something that you like sooooo much. to hell with the flamers! this is your home.
another 2 cents
Molot
There is no way to stop this, because all you can do is REACT.
it may help to have multiple mods per mill (under an established code of conduct) so that flame posts dont stay up for 8 hours until a mod comes on, but all you can do is react faster.
but if a suggestion is neither an insult to a player nor a mockery of their idea or spam (joke posts and such), then what can you do with it?
Deleting extra stuff that 'does not meet our standards' is clear cut elitism. Dumb ideas happen. Responses to this type of thing should be held to the same standard (no mocking someone for suggesting mystic visionary in type one WW if they are serious). A simple explanation of why not to do that will suffice. And if they disagree, fine.
You only get problems if you let these things descend into debates, as they clutter space and prevent decks from getting positive input.
BDominia is the last board/mailing list I belong to that does not require an account to post. In some ways I kind of like that, but I think that, in time, even this board will migrate to an account based system.
Any system of barriers will screen out the people who are less serious (junk posters) and thereby raise the general quality level of the boards. The account system does this with a minimum of fuss for the Users while also granting some nice powers to the moderators. Such as the ability to muzzle people who are continuously rude.
Quote:Deleting extra stuff that 'does not meet our standards' is clear cut elitism.