If you are in favor of any sort of reprinting of older magic cards, go to petitiononline.com/mtgoop and sign up! If you like Type1, but you don't like the price, then this is for you. Intelligent reprint policy would also work to keep reduction of the original cards value to a minimum. How many of you Type1 players wish you had more opponents? I know I do. Tell wizards what you think!
Not one single reply? No one even wants to tell me I'm wrong? Did everyone debate this a year ago when I wasn't around, or what?
Yes, we did. I agree with you - on my way to sign.
As I don't own the power cards, I know how you feel about the price of those, but imagine how the guy who just bought a set of moxen few weeks ago would feel!!
Hmmm... I let you imagine
As an online, as well as brick'n'mortar games retailer, I can wholeheartedly support this...there just aren't enough cards to go around for there to be any increase in the number of players capable of competing in Type 1. As a player of this game as well, I'd love to be able to find opponents, I doubt there are half a dozen players within a reasonable driving distance of my home that own any piece of jewelry, much less the blue.
But remember, you're talking about changing a long standing corporate policy, it will take a LOT of people to get their attention. Petitions are a good tool for gauging interest, e-mailing and otherwise contacting the presidents/board of directors of the companies involved may help convince them of the financial gains possible. And that will be the bottom line, policies be damned, business is about customer satisfaction; if there are substantially more customers who want these cards reprinted than those who don't, Hasbro will take notice.
I think I'll go contact the site admin of the petition, an addition to our links seems to be in order.....
go buy CE cards and play with black backs. They are tournament legal, as long as you use black backs. Your opponent can make you desleeve your cards, but you can resleeve them after your opponent is done looking at them.
Great! Now this is what I was hoping for! By the way, I've owned ALL these cards, and I still have some of them, but not all. I actually own a great quantity of Collectors Edition, I guarantee those would lose value but I'm not worried about it. IMO, the "guy who just bought moxes" should be happy for a reprint, unless he doesn't care to play with them, in which case he's a collector who shouldn't have such a sway on the game. I seriously doubt that anyone who loves magic enough to pay $100+ per card would quit over a reprint. It would be balanced out by a serious reinvigoration of the format. You have to figure, there are really no more than 30,000 of each power9 card in existence, probably less. There are supposedly 6million people now playing magic. Type 1 will eventually die without a reprint, it'll die of "an inbred metagame" if nothing else. Is it worth it to coddle a few collectors while the rest of us starve? I don't accept WotC's rationale for the reserved list, it was a reaction to the negative feedback from Chronicles, btw. The difference is that with a few exceptions Chronicles cards weren't good, all that happened was that crap like Elder Dragons, whose only selling point was rarity, became devalued. No one wanted those cards except to collect, so the set sold poorly and continues to do so. In the present state of the game nothing has value outside of how good it is in a deck. That makes trading really hard, harder than it should be. I think a reprint is only common sense, it's a game, not an investment. I've been running up against this brick wall for close to 5 years now (a long time ago I figured their smartest move would be to reprint the good cards in Ice Age, boy did that NOT happen). I'm not going to let it go, the amount I play magic fluctuates greatly anymore, but I'd have to say the odds are in favor of an eventual reprint. It'll happen faster if people get behind it, and anyone who calls themself a real Type 1 player should know that additional players are more important than how much their deck is worth. It makes sound business sense too, if people are willing to pay good money for proxies of old cards, then there is definitely a market. Well, enough of this for now . . .
Molenubar: That is exactly incorrect. CE cards are specificially not legal in any format, under any circumstance, ever.
Andrew: That's correct, despite what I've seen some slightly dishonest ebay sellers proclaim. I own a ton of CE, I bought them just because I like to play Type1. I've never really been a tournament player anyway, and to me it was worth it to pay roughly 1/5th as much (or less) to get the same exact cards in casual play. I love the game itself, right? BTW, if they ever were to become tournament legal, I bet they'd be worth more than unlimited, which is probably the whole reason they're not legal . . .
If they ever reprint, my CE cards' value will probably drop, but at least I'll have some non-proxied opponents and I might even consider playing competitively again. Until then, everyone at my shop thinks I'm a richie with a bunch of betas, I wonder how long that will last. . .
I do so love to stomp a Type2 net deck.
Well, the trick with IE (International Edition) and CE (Collector's: Don't ask me what the difference is) is who's going to know if you round the corners well? Honestly, I don't think I've ever been to a T1 tournement where the cards were checked, and if they're well rounded and in dark sleeves, nobody's the wiser.
They really should just make them legal. Everyone who's everyone uses backed sleeves, and it's not like there are so many CE cards . . . their value would go up before the 'real' cards ever went down. I've never had anyone question mine (they are all clipped), but to me, it must look odd that one guy has so many mint beta cards. I'm not sure I'd risk being thrown out at a tournament over it. On the other hand, I really like being able to buy a black-bordered mox for less than $40, and 'legalization' would change that.
By the way, I just checked the petition site, and there are several new signatures! Thanks to everyone who signed on, keep 'em coming! Tell your friends! Tell your enemies!
Enough with the shameless promoting . . .
P.S. Gotta keep the thread alive right?
Bad idea. The destruction of type 1 sales will mean teh destruction of alot of gaming stores=>bad.
If you want to play type1 and can't afford it just print out your own copies. Hell print out 20 copies of each card and sell themm for $1 apiece. Pretty soon you'll have plenty of opponenets to play. People who spend $1000 on type1 cards expect at the very least to be able to hedge their bets when they get out of magic. Comeon?!? Most of the 30000 of each power 9 isn't in circulation anyways. They are horded by teh massive gaming stores to increase prices. If they were they would be 'resonably priced'
Oh and many many people don't play they just collect and for them magic IS an investment.
Okay, I think I can refute this quite handily. First of all, any store that hoards cards in hopes of driving up their value is a speculator. I do not believe that most stores do this, at least not anymore. Speculators are not at all interested in what is best for the game, by hoarding they are taking a risk in the hopes that they will make more money. That being said, they can go do that with stocks, they don't have to louse up a perfectly good game just to play 'happy capitalist'. The idea that any meaningful amount of stores would go out of business due to a reprint is absurd, find more than a few that even have more than one set of power9 in stock. I think you'd find more stores willing to take a hit on T1 card values than on T2 cards, which they sell in far greater volume.
Anyone willing to spend big bucks on Type1 cards should be happy to see the format reinvigorated, if they spent the money that generally means they could afford it. It's not like they'll go and commit suicide because their 'magic stock' crashed! How many Type1 players can honestly say they'd be so mad over a reprint as to quit? Not one that I've ever talked to! As for collectors, I am a collector myself. I am willing to take the hit because I am also A PLAYER. Strict collectors should not be coddled over players, it's a game first and foremost, an investment second if at all. If they do the reprint intelligently the old cards will still have value. Their value could even hold static if lots of people get into Type1. Beta birds of Paradise go for over $60.00, so I don't think we'd be seeing old-school moxes in the bargain bins. They should change the art, make the cards white-border, update the text boxes to current rules, etc. A reprint does not have to mean a duplicate of beta . . . no one would be in favor of that. This will happen eventually, it's foolish to think it NEVER will, so why not have it happen sooner rather than later? As for counterfe** *ahem* I mean, 'Proxies', if I had the facilities I'd be way ahead of you. It would sure beat putting all this time into (hopefully) changing a corporate policy, wouldn't it? Of course, I'm not actually serious. Why would I ever do something like that. :-)
Just wanted to throw my support your way... I'm still in the process of finishing a Beta set, and even though I've put a lot of time and money into it, I would still rather actually have someone to play T1 with rather than have a binder full of expensive cards that I can't even use.
As for the market value go, changing the picture on it and reprint it even with a black border, can keep the value of the original pretty high. Just think about the Icy Manipulator they reprint in Ice Age. Before Ice age everybody was craving for it, after everybody have one and the original from Unlimited drop in price but it still pretty high (12$ to 35$). Just my 0.02$. What do you think?
It certainly will be no big loss to gaming stores, very few have any real amount of Type 1 stock. Businesses that deal in singles make their money in Extended and Type 2, and collectors are by far outnumbered by players.
For just casual play, I love the idea of anyone using proxies, because I enjoy playing, and I would rather be playing aginst someone on an even playing field, where it is only their skill and luck vs. mine.
I encourage my friends and people that i just see at tournamnets to use proxies, for playtesting, so that they can get used to the feel of the power, and get an appreation of the cards. I even make proxies for the kids, or let them borrow parts of my power if I am not using them at that tournamnet.
I will even play those same people in ante matches, letting them use proxies... all that matters to me is the skill and sportsmanship.
However, for actual tournament play I would be outraged if they allowed CE IE, or any other sort of proxie in.
True that most people do not call for a deckcheck on there opponents at local weekly tournaments, but that is probably a mistake. I have caught a younger guy at the tournamnet trying to pull of proxied cursed scolls, as real... the color balance was off on the color photocopy, so I called judge, and he was disqualified, and now he cannot live it down.
Allot of the other tournament players will give him a hard time about it, and I can tell that he hates it allot.
But that is the game, for tournaments at least, play the cards you have, tournamest are were you "test your might" you gotta flex your muscles, and play what you have, there is alarger jackpot involved (usually) as well as the prestige of your rating.
I have done my share of using lotus petal instead of a mox, and mana vault instead of black lotus... I feel that it made me desire the cards more, and made me appreciate them more once I get them.
If they did reprint the power, in a set that was outside of t2, but they were legal in t1, and had a fat arse "2nd edition" stamped on them, I would be cool with that, especially if it would mean that there would be a resurgance in t1, or a pro tour.
That way it would allow those players breaking in now, all a fair chance at getting those new power cards, and not just allowing the players that have the IE, and CE carde to just be let into the inner circle.
But they vendors would gouge you on those as well.
My 2 centz.
Well, I'd rather be gouged for $20 than $200, if you know what I mean. Anything would be better than where it's at now. As for CE, I'm happy with them the way they are, I bought them to play casually anyway. If they made them legal, then how would I get the best cheap beta-lookalikes around? CE are THE proxies to own, actually their not even proxies . . . they're real cards that aren't tournament legal. I'd be perfectly happy to own CE cards for their 'old-school goodness', and then own another set of reprinted cards, no matter how ugly, to play in tournaments. It'd be perfect!
I hate to be the voice of reason and pour cold water on your petition, but it ain't gonna produce results and here's why;
When you take a look at the Competitive Type I environment, the first thing you notice is that there are certain cards that show up over and over. Why, you ask? Because they are the best, nost overpowered/undercosted/broken cards available. And competitive Type I is all about having the tightest, most focused, most effective deck possible.
The next thing you notice is that the decklist of any competitive Type I deck is composed of between 50% and 85% of cards that are out of print and have been for 5 years or longer. That's because it took about two years for WOTC to get a handle on how to avoid producing these powerhouses en masse, and there are a lot fewer of them in later releases.
Meanwhile, over in the (much larger)casual players world, people are having a fun time without any of the power cards because they play in an environment when their opponents don't have them either. They wouldn't likely stand up to a competitive Type I deck, but they hold their own against their friends just fine.
Now let's introduce these reprints and see what happens.
It won't take long until some casual players start putting them into their decks. Once they do, they'll likely start to win more often due to the power boost. This will leave the other casual players with some hard choices.
1) Keep playing, but accept the fact they are going to lose more frequently
2) Get your own power cards so you can compete on a level playing field
3) Quit the game because it's not fun anymore
Human nature says that option 1 won't happen very often. Why play if you expect to lose?
That means players will have to play the power cards in self defense, or get out.
Decks will stagnate as players will be forced to rely on a lot of the same cards, with minor tweaking, all the time. And more players will decide not to take up Magic as a hobby because they must either play with the small subset of power cards or expect to lose frequently.
And in the end it comes down to business. WOTC can't afford to drive away new customers by producing a game that is hard to get started in.
Besides, it's the casual players who buy the new cards from WOTC, not the Type I aficianados. If they reprinted the power cards and turned their entire audience on to what they can do, then who would they sell the next set of cards to? Committing financial suicide is NOT considered a good business move.
That argument doesen't have me fully convinced.
For one thing, the negative repercussions you point to appear to be all about the casual T1 players; as far as I know (from several friends of mine who are casual players) they play for fun. If they play for fun rather than to win, then they won't need to get the P9 or other power even if they all get reprinted; having an unfair advantage isn't all that fun.
Second, if all these cards are reprinted, then there will be enough to go around that most casual players will be able to find and afford the new versions if they so choose. If more players have the cards needed to compete, then more people will be able to enter T1 tournaments and become dedicated, competitive T1 players instead of casuals which would actually increase the amount of business Wizards gets.
After all, who's going to spend more? Someone who's just out to have some fun or someone who plays competitively and needs to have the edge?
I'm not buying the argument either. If that was the case with casual play, then no one should play casual unless they can get Call of the Herd, etc.? If you can't play 4 infiltrators in casual, you might as well quit? It's the same exact reasoning, you don't play power in a casual game unless it's built as a purposely casual deck. I've made plenty of casual decks with restricted cards, it's my favorite way to play. Anyway, that argument is pointless unless you want to argue that good cards in general will scare off casual players. The whole 'broken' argument is VERY subjective, I think it essentially needs to be removed from the entire debate. What you consider broken, I just consider 'magic'. Anyone who plays Type1 obviously finds it superior to Type2, they aren't just on crack or something, as some newer players seem to think. There is nothing wrong with liking explosive 'lucky' draws and 'bomb' cards that can swing the game in one or two plays. Sure beats knowing who will win three turns in advance.
As for the other half of your argument, I have often wondered if Wizards is afraid that the masses might catch on to Type1 and leave Type2 in the dust. I don't really see that happening, but we can always dream can't we? IMO, both formats should be viable. They are already almost totally different games. Obviously I've seen more support than dissent, although the real problem is getting around the apathy.
Cards I hope are NEVER brought back (even though I have used a few of them, and still do use some of them...erm) - with more recent 'replacements' :
Moxen - the Mirage Diamonds; these work fine.
Lotus - nothing.
Library - nothing.
Sol Ring - insert random colourless mana art. here
Ancestral - hmmm. nada.
Time Walk - time warp.
Demonic Tutor - diabolic tutor. this is balanced.
Regrowth - various.
Mana Drain - counterspell. leave it at that.
Moat - teferi's moat.
Abyss - pillar tombs. ;)
Strip Mine - wasteland.
They are - > RIDICULOUS, so on, so forth.
I would like to see dual lands back, especially as the emphasis seems to be back on multicolour design.
If wotc wishes to make 3-5 colour more appealing and marketable, they should bring back dual lands, not phaph around with pain and tapped things.
Hmm...would anyone have played Regrowth and Tutor back in the olden days if they had been costed at 4, like their fixed versions Elven Cache and Diabolic Tutor? Just wondering.
so let me get this straight...
you want old power cards reprinted, so they are accessable to play casually?
why not just make proxies, or buy CE versions of P9?
I agree that these cards would be completley overpowered in T2, especially given the current lack of power there. But, as I understand it, the point of a reprint would be to get more Type 1 Tournament legal copies of the OOP cards. This means that the reprints would never really have to be T2 legal.
The reason CE isn't adequate (if you bothered reading) is that those cards aren't technically tourney legal and the point would be to get more people playing tournaments and to revive an almost dead format.
one way to do that in addition is to inpliment the card data for all sets in the new MTG game. that is put legends, a/b/u cards in it.
AND let people make whatever decks they want to play like you would on apprentice.
... and any store owner that is hoarding the older cards is a fool. Prices of the pre-Dark good cards haven't changed much at all in more than 5 years. That's right, 5 years. Moxes still cost about $100, same as 5 years ago. Etc. No shopkeeper will sit on inventory with a limited clientele than doesn't increase in value.
I'm in favor of reprinting the older stuff, with new art and white borders, as long as WOTC sponsors Type I again.
uiolagicel. . .:
Cards I never want to see again: Mirage diamonds, other trash. How many decks use them? I *love* the whole 'broken' argument, let's take a card everyone uses and make it so it's only good in one deck, if that. Lion's Eye Diamond made me want to pull my hair out. I ask you, what is 'fair and balanced' in this game anyway? It's a subjective argument that you can't win. I'm not authoritarian, so as far as I'm concerned even R&D shouldn't be telling me 'that card's too good for you, here have this random replacement'. People like to play Type1, but they can't because the cards are too hard to get. It drives people away. This creates the circular argument that since no one plays Type1, no one cares about it. I honestly don't know why wizards is afraid of the format, I know they've got a lot of anti-mox zealots in R&D. Don't worry, this reprint won't corrupt your precious Type2. I'll say it again, the formats are DIFFERENT, what is 'broken' in one is like a basic land in the other. There are even a few deck archetypes that don't use much of the power9, if you read the primers. It might even be argued that stuff like Morphling is more ridiculous in the format than the mana-acceleration. Just because Black Lotus is most expensive, doesn't mean it's the most ridiculous card ever printed. One size fits all arguments don't work in real life, and they don't work in magic. And yes, I own all the power in CE versions, a few years ago I owned it all for real. The reason I bought CE recently wasn't just because it's cheaper, but because it would be pointless to even attempt to play Tournament Type1 in my area. It literally does not exist. A reprint would help bring it back, and there is no reason for them not to do it. It would get older players back into the game, and it would introduce the newer players to a different style of play. You can play type2, or you can play Type1. What's so hard about that?
I would like to add that WotC has recently unleashed power cards upon casual players anyway: Urza's Block. I think that speaks for itself.
Anyone remember the Academy and Bargain decks in Urza Block? That was pretty busted, and it was printed recently. Surprisingly enough, it didn't kill magic.
I can just picture the scene at R&D
"Tolarian Academy? That's not broken at all! It's legendary, so it sucks. And blue stinks anyway, just look at Morphling! You need so much mana to run it that it's crazy!"
"Masticore blows, I don't want to discard cards!"
"Yawgmoth's Bargain? Yawn, another crappy rare for the pile"
The truly funny thing here is that most of the players I know quit magic somewhere around Tempest and then picked it up during Urza Block again because playing with busted cards was so much fun to them. It didn't kill magic in my area; it actually strengthened the game.
In addition to those mentioned above there are Stroke of Genius, Time Spiral, Memeory Jar, and Yawgmoth's Will. Though not broken on their own, in conjunction with other cards they demonstrate how broken the entire block was.
Academy died. Then came Jar. That died. Then came Bargain and Replenish decks. What a joke.
P.S. I'm posting so much cause I just took my last final. Ah the joy.
GDarius: I was that person. I had quit magic all through Tempest, and then I read the Urza's Saga spoiler. I was shocked, and happy. That Mind Over Matter deck was probably the most rediculous thing since TimeMaster (use four of most of the restricted cards in Beta, that's TimeMaster), if not worse. I still think Morphling is THE most rediculous card ever printed, but you know what, I'm willing to take a certain amount of crap from cards like that if it means I'm getting a bunch of cool stuff in my decks. They say 'broken', I say 'not boring'. Have you ever noticed how apparently it's very 'PC' for the pros to cut up Urza block? I think there's a rift between people who's only thought is that they don't want a "god draw" to keep them out of Top8, and the rest of us who find 'broken' magic more exciting. Obviously, I'm talking more about Type2 pros here. Are there even any hardcore Type1 players that can be called 'pro'? The broken-police are never going to win, the game will never be 'perfectly fair'. For that to happen, every card would have to be a grey ogre. I'm not going to play THAT game. I too am nearly done with school, so I get to sit at the computer for way too long, rambling on about something I can only hope won't come out sounding half-retarded. I'm out . . .
To those of you who stand by your arguement that reintroducing the power cards will ruin the format:
I have 4 things to say to you.
I dare you to count the power cards in these decks. And 2 of these are teir 1.5 in the Type 1 environment. People who don't want to play power, don't have to! I play sligh all the time. It's cheap, it's consistent, and it's very fun. So don't even try to tell me that power cards will ruin anything. Sligh has and always will be a force in T1.
Tell you what, you count the power cards in a Sligh deck, and tell me when you get to 3 ok?
And if a deck like Sligh gets into trouble, it's because of cards like Powder Keg moreso than Moxes, etc. People enjoy power cards for the most part, if everyone just looked at them, said 'it's broken' and ignored them, then Black Lotus wouldn
t be worth in the triple digits. On the whole 'broken' argument, I think that's just some peoples way of rationalizing why they wouldn't spend $$$ for the cards. Sounds more sophisticated than 'I'm too poor.'
Thing is, everyone has their own individual likes and dislikes. I love the power9 and dual lands, but I hate Underworld Dreams and Black Vise. I just really don't feel like killing people with card drawing or 'cards in hand' mechanics. Too boring. I'd much rather beat someone senseless with a Juzam or something. But that's just my opinion.
Dangit, I've always wanted the P9. It's just that I always want other things more.
I think it's time to invest in some CE.
CE is the best! I'm loving it! Don't tell anyone though, it'll drive the prices up. I haven't had a deck that looks so blatantly old-school since 1995 . . .
Oh yeah, and I still think they should reprint the cards so we can all play in tournaments! So there.
Well, either that or make the CE cards tournament legal. Just don't do it until I get all the cards I need.
I still feel you are missing my point.
Vince Lombardi(I think) is quoted as saying "Winning isn't everything. It's the ONLY thing'.
This is reasonably true in the tournament environment, where players examine their decks with a critical eye to how optimal they are. Cards that are fun but sub-optimal are nevertheless dropped, as the ultimate goal is winning. There have been numerous articles about a player playing a deck they don't like, just because they feel it is the best deck for that tournament's metagame.
This demand for optimization at all costs leads to a seriously inbred card pool in the Type I environment, as these decks tend to fall in two categories:
1) Those loaded with older power cards
2) Those that are mono-color(and non-blue so they find it harder to utilize the power cards) and built around small mana-efficient creatures, supplemented by cheap utility cards in that color's strengths.
In both cases, a disproportionately high percentage of the cards come from the sets 5 years and older, because that's where most of the undercosted/overpowered cards come from.
Over in the casual pool, players play to win but winning is not the only thing. Having fun while winning is also a big part of the allure. Because of this, Casual decks use all sorts of sub-optimal cards from all of the sets in combos and synergies that are fun and usable... but not optimal. This works because you can expect the other decks in the environment to be somewhat similar, with nobody using the older power cards extensively(and I don't mean just the P9/10) because most players don't possess them in any quantity.
Once you reprint a lot of power cards to support the Type I tournament environment, there is no way to prevent them from spilling over into the casual environment. And these casual decks generally are unfocussed and sub-optimal enough that adding a few of the power cards even willy-nilly will make a huge difference in the decks strength.
Once you get one or two players at a shop location doing it, the others see that they need to upgrade their decks too, in order to continue playing on a level playing field. Being the underdog is fun occasionally, but not as a consistent diet.
And the more that players start playing with the power cards on a regular basis, the more that you need to play with them yourselves in order to hold your own. And once casual players get used to playing with the power cards, why should they buy the new sets that come out? There just won't be very many cards(if any) in each set that can compete in this high power environment.
The reality is that WOTC has managed to establish a casual environment, through the use of banning/restricting/judicious reprints, where the power level is high enough that it is interesting for the players, yet low enough that WOTC can continue to introduce new sets that can compete. If they were to reprint the Type I power cards in a manner so as to make them available to all, they would find it a lot harder to market any follow-on sets. And that wouldn't make good business sense.
Westwycke: I do understand what you're saying, but I think your analysis is pessimistic. Did casual play grind to a halt with Urza's Block? Heck no. I was actually around and playing when everyone had power9, these cards are perfectly acceptable for casual play. I've built many a casual deck with them, other people love it when you play Timetwister; just how totally 'broken' is a Black Lotus if the very best thing your deck can do with it is cast an early Shivan Dragon? In an environment with easy creature removal? I just don't think that rereleasing these cards will force all the casual players into playing sub-optimal keeper decks, they'll continue on with whatever strategies suit them. Here's another 'new' old idea, if everyone in your play group totally dislikes a certain card, such as Underworld Dreams or The Abyss (as an example), then you ban it among yourselves. You are grossly overestimating the impact of the DCI on casual players. A reprint would allow more people to play Type1, and casual players would adapt. Casual play can't possibly be harmed, I actually knew way more purely casual players back when the power was easy to get. As far as Type1 being very archetypal, even 'inbred', I think that is the first step to making a real game out of it. No one complains that everyone uses the same chess pieces. Innovation is great, as a casual player I strive for innovation, but what's the difference if Keeper, etc, have been around for 5 years? It's not as though 99% of us will ever innovate anything on the Type2 circuit, the inner circle of pros get to do that, and then everyone plays variants of the net decks. In that way, both formats are identical, in one you get to keep your cards, while in the other you have to throw half of them out every year or so. If a reprint would actually be a huge detriment to Type2 sales, then it's proving my point that the format is better. I personally feel there is room for both. At least some people can realize that decreasing the power level of a lot of cards is a marketing strategy, the idea that it actually make the game more fun is just someone's opinion.
I went for quite some time without any duels or real power cards. I eventually broke down and bought them. They are available to those who want them, but you have to pay for them.
And that is how it should be. Good cards are worth alot. Sure, I don't want to spend $15 a piece on shadowmages or even $10 or so on call of the herd. Wizards, you should reprint those!
and, it won't happen. They won't reprint the old ones, unless they had some sort of wierd back and were not available in tournament play. And as long as you don't care about tournament play for power cards, why don't you just proxy them up, I know plenty of people who play against my p10 with proxies, I don't mind, as long as it's not a tournament.
Actually, I wouldn't mind if wizards started reprinting power cards and the chances of getting something on the order of duel lands was like 1 in 10 boxes, and something like a p10 card was 1 in 100 boxes or more. The prices of my cards might even go UP then, with more people getting the cards once in a while.
Not that it matters, no matter what the price goes up to, I wouldn't sell. Makes me wish I would have started out in alpha/beta, and had a few extra lotuses sitting around.
I'm not all that pessimistic, I'm realistic.
Urza's Block didn't stop casual play because while it was more powerful than previous blocks, and had more 'broken' cards and combo's, it still is not in the same power league as Beta/Arabian/Antiquities. Comparing Urza's block to those three sets is about equal in number of cards, but compare how many show up in top level decks and on the ban/restrict lists and you see that Urza's isn't so powerful compared to the reprints you're asking for.
You say that you were around and playing when everyone had P9, that the cards were perfectly acceptable for casual play, and you knew a lot more casual players back then. Makes perfect sense to me. Back then there was nowhere near the tournament environment that is available today so you had to play more casual, and the cards were acceptable for casual because there weren't any alternatives yet.
You say 'why is Lotus bad if the best you can do is an early Shivan?' in an environment with easy creature removal. Considering that it's not unreasonable to play a second turn Shivan if you have a Lotus available?
The number of options for dealing with a turn 2 Shivan are a lot less than for dealing with one on turn 5 or 6. If casual players find that they have to deal with this on a regular basis, they will have to start choosing to play either more speed themselves or limit themselves to only a few of the quickest removal cards. And so the card pool shrinks.
You say that if we don't like certain cards we could ban them. Try convincing the owner of the store who wants to sell these cards that he should support a ban on playing them in the free play area of his store. Imagine walking into a store in a new city while traveling, only to find they have banned cards from the deck you play al the time at home. Deciding on which cards shouldn't be played on a regular basis can't realistically be done on a site by site level, it has to be done somewhat globally.
Your comparision about Type I to Chess doesn't hold up. The games are different.
Chess was meant to be a static game; they don't produce new pieces with different abilities as time passes. Magic does.
Chess doesn't require you to play with "Registered Trademark" pieces and board. Magic does.
And that is probably the number one reason that WOTC doesn't do the reprints. If Type I players appear to be happy playing with the same cards all the time, with very little change, why should WOTC try to migrate their casual players towards Type I?
What it comes down to in business terms is that you want WOTC to support the Type I environment, when the Type I players don't support WOTC by buying the newer cards in any quantity. At least not in the quantity that the casual players do. Money talks.
And I realize it is a marketing decision to keep the power level down. But if I had to choose between a huge card pool of medium power cards to make multiple kinds of decks with, or a small pool of high power cards to make one or two decks with, I would have more fun with the huge pool.
You said in an earlier post that you find playing with card in hand mechanics boring, you'd rather use a Juzam or some such. One of the traits common to most casual players is that they find playing with(and against) the same deck over and over boring. We want the opportunity to be able to build new and different decks, without having to sacrifice our winning chances to do so.
I was on Ebay looking at CE Timetwisters and I noticed that someone with the name 'henge_wolf' had left feedback on a seller named klesh who claims to "have the largest collection of CE cards in the world."
Hahaha. What a coincidence.
Yup, that's me. Look up Klesh if you want to buy in bulk, he's the man.
Westwycke: I understand your argument totally. You are one of the few people who have come up with a real argument, not just "Don't devalue my cards!" or "They are broken, they won't be reprinted!" I salute you for that. Your argument makes a lot of sense. I recognized at the start of this that it would be exceedingly hard to change the way the game works. As far as the chess argument, WotC is the one who originally mentioned that it wanted Magic to be a classic like chess. It won't be though, because of how they market it. Their marketing tactic is straightforward, they've had a hard time retaining players, so they attempt to soak the living hel out of every magic player until they quit; then they start on the next batch of 13 year olds. That makes the game a niche, it will never be a 'household item' unless they market it more like chess or some other board game. What I'm suggesting then would be factory sets. As far as the whole banning thing, I think you are stuck in a tournament mentality here. The way I used to play with my friends, was if a deck was too good and no one could beat it, you either had to remove some offending cards, or just play another deck. The whole idea of 'official store bannings' is NOT what I'm talking about. I believe casual play is self-correcting, read some of Garfield and company's essays in the original pocket players guide, they knew what they were talking about. As far as reprints hurting new card sales, it might be true, it might not be. You wouldn't know until you implement it. I personally question the policy of 3+ new sets a year anyway, we can talk about expanded cardpools all day long, but how many of the new cards are NOT just some kind of rehash? How many times do we need to look at a card that says "I'm an old card with less toughness and 2 extra mana in the casting cost." People pay for proxies, which are COUNTERFEITS. Doesn't it make more sense for Wizards to make money instead of counterfeiters? I'd like to see them re-energize Type1 tournaments as well, but I can see why at this point they may not because they see it as a threat. The idea that they will never reprint though, I highly doubt that. I see magic as a very finite game in the long term, already there are very few original ideas left to implement. The whole reason I argue this is not for myself, I already own most of the cards. The ones I don't own I will buy in time. It's the fact that comparatively very few people are as dedicated to spending money on cardboard as I am. Where are my opponents? This is what I'm appealing to, Type1 will be nothing more than an inbred 'rich man's club' without a reprint. Wizards probably hopes that it will someday die off. I'd be happy with any form of reprint, even if they were illegal there's always non-sanctioned events.
I also agree about the same decks being boring. I've sold a lot of expensive cards that way, back when the values started taking off, I'd usually trade everything into one expensive deck, and then sell it off when I got bored with it. Thing is, I'll never get bored of cards like moxes, lotus and dual lands. To me they are like basic land, it's just something every deck should have. Most restricted cards are pure utility, you don't build decks around them (unless it's ancestral recall), so you can legitimately build any type of deck that includes them. Your deck can have every restricted card available and still suck, so there would be plenty for the casual players to mess with. I think this all get's down to a matter of opinion. I understand the reasons why they won't do it, but I don't feel that I have to accept it. I will,obviously, until someone invents a better game than magic. Maybe some serious competition would cause them to rethink some of their policies . . .
Another thing I'd like to look into would be a new banned/restricted list. Obviously this will never fly in any form at this point, unless I create my own e-league or something. I'm not even recommending it as a universal measure, it's just something I'd like to try. The reason Type1 is so 'ridiculous' as some people put it, is because there are a few cards that eat up whole strategies. These aren't the power 9, they are cards like Abyss. I'd like to see a format with SOME of the power, that to me would be the greatest. I'm not sure why I added that, it's heresy to even speak of such a thing. And extended is not what I'm talking about either, I like restricted cards remember. Plus, I'll never play against a trix deck even if it's the only opponent I can dredge up.
-HengeWolf, Magic Heretic
What a ridiculous message that was. Did I actually write that? It's the damned writers block, I always go off somewhere strange, and I think of the best points right after I hit 'post message.'
I want to add something that I think might clarify the above mess. The whole casual argument isn't taking a prime factor into account. Let's say that, like you said, some Type1 cards will filter into casual decks. Let's say that means on average a casual deck might have 3-5 power cards. Let's just say for now that most of those are on the restricted list. This will not change the way casual play works at all!
I'll stick by my 'early dragon' argument, because you have to assume that I actually draw a lotus opening hand, along with a dragon, and some moxes, a sol ring, or a mana vault. All of those cards are restricted, so the odds of an early dragon are actually really slim. In casual, if you get a 'god draw', you just shuffle up and play another one, and you have a fun story to tell your friends. Rarely does a casual player complain when you do something amazingly broken, if it only happens 1 in 20 games.
My point is that 'god draws' are fun, and that's really all you're going to get out of a casual deck with a few T1 cards sprinkled in. The lotus is nearly useless if you draw it late game, after turn three or so a mox is just a hundred dollar basic land. Ancestral's really good unless you're deck isn't, in which case you just draw more crap. So people would want these cards over junk like mirage diamonds, but so what? They'd still be buying product, and who wouldn't want to crush that huge diamond market. As far as these hypothetical players not wanting new cards . . . I'm just as willing to believe that a casual Type 1 player will look at something like Beast Attack and say "Lotus, Land and Sol Ring could mean a turn1 4/4!" There's a common misconception that casual players don't know how to play. That a few "overpowered" cards will spoil them. I just don't buy it.
If you're not confused yet, I'm sure you soon will be. I'd say ignore the above post, but about 1/3 of it makes sense, I think . . .
-HengeWolf, who now realizes you should never write and talk on the phone at the same time.
Besides which, there are already plenty of mana accelerators available to casual players. Granted they aren't as good as the Lotus or Moxen, but for casual play they are almost the same. Eladamri's Vineyard gives you four mana by second turn. Mana Vault and Sol Ring do the same.
Anyway, I doubt seriously that MOST casual players will be able or want to collect all of the P9. Most of the kids I see playing can hardly get four of their favorite creature. Those more experienced casual players with larger collections such as myself can moderate themselves I'm sure. Broken enough net decks already exist. If I can resist playing with those, I'm sure I can resist the urge to abuse the P9.
So sign the reprint petition dangit. This is the website:
Right on Rico, you know what you're talking about. I used to play against people who had random power in their casual decks all the time, I can remember tons of people who's decks read like "4 each of every card worth more than $5 in the colors I'm playing" Those decks weren't necessarily good. The cards that no one would want after being 'spoiled' would be cards that . . . no one really wants anyway! Things like Lion's Eye Diamond will suck always and forever, and things like Pillar Tombs are really just as good as Abyss to a casual player anyway. So what we're left with is this: Casual players and Type1 players would buy the reprint, while casual play remains unchanged. Type2 goes on as normal, Type1 experiences a resurgence. If they are worried about it siphoning off too much money from Type2, then they can just print less of it. I do not understand why they can't support Type 1 even a tiny bit. They're all angst-y over it, "oh the horror of the broken moxes!"
On a totally unrelated note, why do so many people call them Moxen? I've always hated that, I know you say Oxen, but do you say Boxen? Dachsun? Boston Redsoxen? I say boxes, I say moxes. Anyone who doesn't like it get's kicked in the . . . well, that's enough of that.
"Sleep deprivation is a wonderful thing."
Rico: If you're serious about CE, talk to Klesh and tell him I sent ya! He's a good one to buy from if you want to dive in all at once, instead of mucking around on 50 different auctions. That's what worked for me, anyway.
Thanks. I think I'll be jumping in after I get some christmas money.
On a side note: I think that we're the only people that even read this thread.
I read it too at times, and I have to say: I couldn't care less if Wizards would reprint all the old power cards. It'd be so sweet, Type 1 would be more played, we'd see more tourneys of it etc. And casual is unaffected, except for a few players who toss in all those cards. So what?? I played a multiplayer highlander deck with the P9, but it was a critter deck, with dragons etc. It was fun as hell, casting turn 1 preachers, or turn 1 1/1 Nightmares with a Lotus, Mox, Mox, land opening.
Everyone will not hate you if you'd play those cards, as long as you don't use them to build a combo deck or something.
Oh, and about the value of the T1 cards: They will NOT fall. I'd say the old cards would stay the same, cause ppl would still like the old pic better then the new pic. At Least, I do
I read this most days. Oh, and Henge wolf: It's moxen, because richard garfield says moxen. So nya to you and your boxen .
Oh, and something I meat to mention before: I do infact own almost a complete powerset. I want these reprint so that *other people* can have full on type one decks.
I have an idea for a reprint that might make a difference. We all know, as much as we might like to hope, that the Power isn't going to be reprinted anytime soon. It's fun to discuss, but your petition is going nowhere. What I would like to see is a set of Championship decks from the Invitational (assuming they bring back Type 1 as a format next year, or they could even do some old ones). These decks would provide high-quality proxies of power cards for us to play with, and casual players can use them if they want (but the gold borders make it easy to ask not to play against such a deck).
I have a full set of Power, but it would sure be cool to have a second set to playtest with or let opponents use
I am going to support Westwycke.
Combo-block (Urza) made more players quit than you might think.
The casual games I play are laden with infinite-whatever combos, boring kill-em-all-in-one-turn-moves and uncreative abusing of power. And I don´t speak of "real" Type I cards, the used cards aren´t older than Tempest.
I had a funny deck with Death Spark, Hematite Talisman and Minion of Leshrac. Creative, isn´t it? Why play Minion/Talisman/Spark if you can use Royal Assassin/Icy instead? Wait, why not use Gravepact/Hornet Cannon so every player loses a creature? Well, why don´t I just use Renewal/Bombardment to kill everyone?
And that´s without Urza´s or old power.
Congregate puts all other lifegaining to shame. Reprinting power means reprinting Congregates for all aspects of Magic.
Magic as a whole would degenerate. Not at first, there would be burst of interest. But wait until the masses got the knowledge to wield the power properly (this art is lost now as this discussion and BD as the last Type I bastion proves).
In my play group I am known for making wonderfully designed decks with great synergies and cards never-seen-before used in a way never-seen-before ... and one single player out of five in Pentagram with a stupid Sliver/Coat of Arms deck is enough to ruin the day.
It´s already hard enough to have fun, don´t make it worse! Ever played someone on Apprentice? Just look what they are doing if they have access to the whole card pool !!!
I would say this even if I did not have any P9 or similar cards. But, it would indeed be a great hit if a reprint would decrease their value. Right now I know that I could sell them for a serious amount. I do not speculate. I just want to know that I could buy a car tomorrow or that I have some reserves for emergency situations. I had that in mind when I spent my money on it. Also I did a lot of trading which could be considered work. It would have been in vain.
I wouldn´t quit cause I love this game so much. But I would be really pissed of a last time. And I could trust Wizards never again. Think about this.
(Note: There are only about 20.000 each of the A/B/U rares, counted together, without CE/IC)
Gzeiger: I agree totally. I'd just be happy with anything at this point. The best thing going right now is CE, but it seems like those have been nearly doubling in value every 18 months. I too would like an extra set that I could lend out . . . or maybe something that my non-hardcore friends could buy. Elegant proxies would suffice. I'll always support a total reprint, but I can admit that it's hardly likely this year or next year. In the future, who knows.
Puschkin: So what you're saying is that magic is already degenerate. You know it and I know it. Does anyone understand how hard it is to find a fun game anymore, even in casual? Most people I've played against recently consider 'casual' to be a tier TWO tournament deck! WTF?!? I cannot grasp how the type1 cards will make this situation any worse than it already is. If people want to play something ridiculous and abusive against your favorite deck, they are going to do it anyway, so you have to either tell them to play something else, or find a new opponent. There are always a few who spoil it for everyone. If you tried to attack this by altering the card pool, you'd be left with nothing but mons' goblin raiders.
Casual play is not an issue for wizards, so please don't pretend like it is. Their exact attitude toward Type1 is that it isn't type2. They want every single magic player to be a type2 tournament player. They have arena, 'friday night magic' (the 'casual' sanctioned event), etc. Look at the player rewards program, they're trying to entice anyone and everyone to get into the tourney scene. They want everyone to spend lots of money on magic on a consistant basis, that is why there are new sets every 4 months and set rotations. There's not much groundbreaking in the new sets, they are just there so you have more to buy. I'm not knocking it if that's what you're into, but isn't it obvious that wizards would rather not print ANYTHING that ISN'T Type2 legal? That is their narrow fixation, and they can pay for it by driving a few people off. I still know way more people who've quit, I've noticed that a lot of the local 'kids' seem to lose interest once they get in high school. A lot of people don't want to spend big cash. So Wizards strategy is a 'pump and dump', pump them for as much cash as possible because inevitably everyone gets fed up or 'gets a life.' I'm not even attacking this as bad marketing, obviously it makes them money. It's not like myself or others like myself can even threaten them; they'd only listen if I was on the Pro Tour and spending $500 a month on the game.
I'd just like to see them make some factory sets on the side, even if they're just for all the 'casual' players who like magic, but don't have any illusions of being a big tournament hustler. Is that so bad?
What? GARFIELD says Moxen?!? That would have to be the first time I've ever disagreed with the good doctor . . . Moxes, Moxes, Moxes!
Sometimes, just sometimes I am able to handle a bad built of a Oath deck or that bargaining dude cause I know what´s coming. But I can´t - and don´t want to- handle infinite Time Walking, games sealed up by Nether Void or someone trading his 1 life point for my 40.
The casual players are the ones who pay Wizard´s bills in the long run. And the old-schoolers like you and me are the most important people for them cause we introduce our friends to the game! Unfortunately they don´t see this and pissed 9/10 of us off. Seriously, I just can´t tell a friend anymore that he should start playing Magic.
Here's my 2 electrum...
I own the P9, and while I have spent a lot of money and time trading/buying them, that's all I'm going to say about them.
Wizards making the majority of their money on Type 2 players. Every time I new set rotates in, these players buy loads of cards, sometimes boxes getting the new cards that they need. Type 1 players don't do this. They look at the new set, and pick the one or two cards they think will help them, and trade or buy said cards. Type 1 players in the long run don't give Wizards any money.
Thus, reprinted the Power 9 would be a bad business decision. You can say what you like about it being better for the game, but in the long run, Wizards is making Magic because it makes them rich. If it was losing money, they'd stop printing cards.
If you reprint, initially a lot of people would buy the new set/collection of these power cards, but then at least half of them would turn to type 1 to play, and stop buying the boxes and singles they had bought in the past. Thus in the short run, Wizards makes money, but in the long run they lose money, and piss off the collectors who've had these cards forever. It's a losing situation for them and they'll never do it.
My play group could assemble a deck with 4 copies of each of the P10. The same people are still buying one display box each of each expansion (sometimes 2 if it´s a large expansion). It´s hard to play Type I only and to resist the urge to play casual decks. And I still don´t want to miss the feeling that opening a booster offers!
And don´t forget the money they get for card sleeves, binders, entry fees and various kinds merchandizing.
Still I wouldn´t recommend reprinting the stuff. They needed so many years to fade them out of memory. They were the big mistakes. Don´t be blind just because you´re greedy for power. Power is relative. You have your power cards right now. Unbalanced card pools are limited card pools. I don´t know what I could say more.
Wow, the site was down for a little bit and everyone stopped posting. I had actually written another huge post . . . I'll try to condense.
Puschkin, you sound disgruntled. I know exactly what you're getting at, you don't like trying to play casually against net-decks, even if they are sub-optimal net decks. I don't blame you, but you have to realize that a good opponent, or a bad one, is not in the cards they play with.
I've known guys who would make crazy decks with power9 in them that were very fun to play against, and I've (unfortunately) known more guys who won't stoop to playing anything less than a tier2 tourney deck, even in casual. One guy in particular that I've played against thinks a 'fun' deck is type1 illusions/donate . . . his reasoning for it being 'fun' is that it's not tier1 anymore! This guy is no different when he plays Type2, so obviously the cardpool has no effect on these types of players. People like this will tell you flat out that they wouldn't spend money on a card if it wasn't directly helping them win more games. Not all players are like this though, and they shouldn't be treated as such. The other day I had to explain to a shop owner that I don't own the Power because I want "broken" wins, I own it because it's what I LIKE. When I build a deck for fun, I make sure it stays at least somewhat fair. If you're going to overpower people completely, you might as well play with yourself, or at least stick to tournaments. At least there you will be rewarded for thinking of nothing but winning all the time.
I'll repeat, with very few exceptions you can make FUN decks that include power cards. The quickness lets you play with cards that are ordinarily too high-cost to cast (broadening your options), and the utility lets you get away with some craziness, which is fun.
I can tell you EXACTLY what makes Type1 decks appear 'broken', and that is the card drawing. I'll go out on a limb and say that LoA is the most powerful card ever made. When I had it, I won consistently every time I drew it opening hand. That's the only card in the game I can say that about. Of course, you can destroy it, but no other power card is going to make you win just on its own. Therefore, you can't say that every time someone plays with those cards it'll automatically be a slaughter.
The idea that some people or decks are just not fun to play against casually will not change by altering the card pool. My point is that people should have the option of playing any style that suits them.
So much for condensing.
The other thing I wanted to mention was the idea that restricted cards are 'mistakes'. Pure BS. Garfield and co. knew what Black Lotus did when they made the game, they just made an assumption that if something was rare, you'd rarely if ever have it in multiples. If you look at discriptions of early playtest decks, they are known for things like being entirely artifact (how many moxes in there?) and being able to 'field multiple large creatures in the first few turns'. They were having fun with the game, and no one back then was saying "1st turn Craw Wurm, that's 'Broken'!" As far as I'm concerned, restriction is a viable mechanic. If everyone wants to use the same mana sources, I am fine with that. Saying everyone is using 7 mana artifacts, in a dozen different decks, is not the same as everyone using the same couple of kill cards (like morphling as one example). The only card that might be 'broken' all on it's own is LoA, because it offers free SUSTAINED card drawing when played correctly. In that respect, it might be better than Ancestral, which is definitely second. Other than that, try playing moxes without lots of card-drawers in your deck, you better hope you get them in your opening hand. Try playing Black Lotus in a deck that consists only of cheap spells and creatures, there is actually a school of thought out there that Black Lotus is only as good as the other restricted cards in your deck. Try using it as your only restricted card and let me know just how abusive it is. Combos and obscene card-drawing are what really make things get crazy, if you take away both of those the cards are hardly evil. Just ask any Type1 player, it is REALLY easy to make a crappy deck with all the power9 in it. The idea that these cards are auto-win or super-powerful every time you play with them is only a myth told by ebay sellers and those who've never played more than a couple games of Type1. Heck, in one of the primers Rakso mentions that a good type1 player trades for most of the power LAST, in my experience I can agree with that.
"If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but at least it's been fun."
First thing you should know that in their first testing environment from Alpha/Beta they had excactly 8 of each common and appropriate less of the uncommons and rares! The cards might have been thought up as better cards, the mistake was that they never believed that anyone would own more than 1000 cards or rares in multiples.
Second they might have intended these cards to be powerful, but they didn´t know how powerful they really are, they COULDN´T have known. Like you said, they used Loti to pull first turn Craw Wurms. It took thousands of magic-freaks how long to discover how broken balance is? They really can´t have known. They playtest a unique and novel game in a inbred metagame in a too small scale and although they invented the game they started from scratch. Even the easiest concepts as weenie decks had to be explored.
That doesn't change my argument though. Alleged card balance is exactly what you make of it. Without Lotus, what good is a craw wurm? In that way having a lotus or two makes certain cards more playable. Why do you think Swords to Plowshares only costs W? Terror only costs 1B? I personally have an antipathy toward Swords, but I'll respect it as an answer to my quickness. I'm not going to hear the argument that my speed negates cards like Second Thoughts, which hardly anyone would play with unless there wasn't a better alternative.
As far as the card Balance, that was Type2 legal up until '96, but it was restricted before that. I'll agree that Balance is a wrecking ball, but it's because I don't think they expected people to play creatureless decks. It should've said "permanents and cards in hand," as one lump sum, instead. Obviously they weren't too up on the card advantage concept, and IMO they still aren't. Card-drawing is still the #1 way to win games, if you are drawing more than your opponent you will win. That's not the case with fast mana, because it is after all, mana, and they don't call it mana-flood/mana-screw for nothing. I guess I can make more of a case for some cards than for others, but really, if you are playing with, say, a 4/4 creature for 4 mana, and your opponent plays with one that costs 5, than that is just as unbalanced in your favor as a mox in play. I'm repeating myself, so I'll switch to something new.
Magic was not originally thought up as a TOURNAMENT game, at least they didn't think anyone would put 1/10th the time and energy into it that tournament players currently do. That's what broke the game, exploiting every little weakness, every little synergy, to the fullest extent. Garfield's idea of what to do against a deck that's too good, and I paraphrase from the Pocket Players guide 'After a while, no one will play against it.' If they got anything wrong when they invented the game, it's that they didn't think people would all be so greedy to win at any cost. But they sure took that knowledge and ran with it, didn't they?
I look at it this way . . . WotC saying I can't have a black lotus, etc. is like the U.S. government saying I can't own a machine gun. Why, because they think most people will abuse their power. Never mind that there are certain individuals, like myself, who are responsible with their power. Perhaps I use my machine-gun to chisel rocks into fine shapes? Perhaps I just enjoy the flash and sound? Is that so wrong?
Okay, that analogy is really out there, but I think it makes a crazy kind of sense, if you suspend disbelief and forget about guns being dangerous. Pretend they just annoy certain people, particularly those inclined toward fencing.
There are some people who will always find a way to abuse something, and the odd people who won't abuse it get penalized for it. I like it when the game is 'unbalanced' a little, but only if people don't blatantly abuse it. A magic utopia? Quite possibly.
The bottom line is that "broken" or "unbalanced" is subjective. No matter how weak a cardpool is, there is always a best deck or decks, so in the end it's all unbalanced. If it wasn't, you could put any cards you wanted into a deck and still win. You can't even do that in draft. I rest my case.
One final thing, this is not a flame, it is a debate. And it's all in good fun, really. I learned early on that the best approach to magic is not to take it too seriously.
"Going for the record of longest post ever."
Amen to the longest post remark.
I think that WotC should reprint older, more powerful cards so that everyone can at least obtain them. If a card is too powerful, it should be restricted or banned. It should not be put out of print.
I don't like the idea of WotC deciding what's best for casual players. Let them decide for themselves. Besides, a net version of Fires is just as broken to your average casual player as Keeper is. The casual player never wins against either deck. What is the difference then? I don't believe there is one.
I think WotC should reprint the power cards with different pictures and white borders, restrict them to Type 1, and make a boatload of cash. Nice and simple.
P.S. to HengeWolf:
What is the market price on the CE power nine? Klesh offered to sell some or all of them in a package deal and I don't want to pay too much. I see Moxes (gotta humor you, no?) for about thirty on Ebay. Is that a good price? What about the other P9? Thanks. Email is n***[email protected]***h.com if you prefer that method of communication.
Speaking of Fires . . . which I wholeheartedly agree, is just as broken in casual. You summed up nicely in one sentence what took me pages!
Did you ever try to trade for Birds of Paradise when that deck was the big thing? I actually decided it was old cards or nothing after trying in vain, and failing, to procure even a single bird. No one even wanted Dual Lands for them, how sick is that! And I just wanted them for a casual green/red! I ended up creating alternate casting-cost Troll-Horn Cameos for that deck, just to prove I didn't care about the local tournament scene and it's politics. Cameo costs 1? "Some good" indeed. I still have those somewhere . . .
I've also got Rushwood Dryads with "G: Regenerate" added. Nothing quite like making your own cards. Anyone care for an Emerald Shard (TM) or an Atavistic Lotus of Dusk (TM)?
Of course, right after I bought 4 CE birds, I managed to get my hands on 2 revised and a 5th edition bird for a grand total expense of $5. The universe works in mysterious ways . . . I'll probably trade them for more CE.
"All made-up cards are Trademarks of Sword of the Henge Productions, which plans to actually create these cards as soon as Wizards gives up it's copyright. Only 92 more years, right? "
First off, it's ox/oxen, so it's mox/moxen. :P
"but isn't it obvious that wizards would rather not print ANYTHING that ISN'T Type2 legal?"
Garfield's idea of "no one will want to play against the too-powerful deck" is a perfect description of the casual environment. It's not even an issue in multiplayer, because your God deck will only work once or twice at most before everyone gets wise and gangs up on you. In a casual environment, if it's not fun, it's crap.
And gross power divisions are not fun.
I have a friend who has bought maybe 4-5 packs in the last five years. Occasionally I go to a store and pick up some good, but not insane cards - things like Blastoderm. And my decks suddenly all got much better, almost to the point where I always win. And it's just not fun. We MattDraft now. And it's fun.
If only one person can get power cards, it is very unbalancing. And not fun. The way it's set up now is that if I have the old school power cards, I can't use them in casual play at all because they're too good for the "metagame" (whatever the card pool of all other players is). I don't want trophy pieces.
-Matt "I've bought a Zephid's Embrace" The Great, casual player EX-traordinare
Look up my previous post concerning the world "box." I will never say or type M*x*n. Skirted around that quite nicely. . . :P
Yeah, they do make boxed sets once a year, and they are small boxed sets with two decks. They rarely, or even never, have anything in them that is hard to get. These sets are fun, but they are completely without controversy, and generally overlooked by the majority of players, so I don't feel a need to comment on them. Wizards won't put out anything large or serious unless it's Type2 legal.
I guess I can only say this so many times, that the cards are what you make of them. I've played tons of casual with power cards, and had tons of fun. If you gear your deck down just right, it won't be too offensive. Experience causes me to say this. What you just said about the blastoderm proves my point, either you exert some self-control in casual, or you don't play with good cards. I personally would rather go with the former over the latter. Believe me, I can play with sub-optimal cards. Clockwork Avian and Sisters of the Flame, not to mention Mold Demon, should all be stamped with "Only Hengewolf will play with this card." Part of the fun of using the power is that it makes the suboptimal stuff better.
I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm mainly endorsing MoxeS/Lotus, the "Draw 7s", and the cheap utility like Regrowth, Fork, Tutor, etc. I'll leave the apologizing over Moat and The Abyss to someone else.
As far as banning all the old stuff in casual, that is just heavy-handed, but if that's what works for you, great. We did it like this: the only things we decided to ban outright were Underworld Dreams (because it made Wheel/Fork deal 14 damage!) and Black Vise (because some of the players didn't feel like taking "three lightning bolts" just because someone Timetwistered). Other than that, we worked on a case by case basis. If a deck was "too good", we decided which cards were really offensive, or better yet, we started maindecking cards that killed whatever strategy was beating everyone. "Metagaming" indeed. I guess the difference between my playing style and that of many people, is that I attack combos directly, at the key cards, rather than eliminating what makes the combo fast, or what makes it draw, or whatever. Some people, like Wizards, would've rather left the Dreams and taken out all the card-drawers. Witness the fiasco in extended over Trix, lets obliterate everything BUT the combo, which of course still exists.
Fast mana is fine, particularly when you're playing casual and most of it goes toward big creatures. Card drawing is fine when it at least makes an attempt at being fair (I've no problem with Wheel and Twister). I've never even really cared about one ancestral recall. Tutor and Regrowth are near useless when they cost 2BB/GG, in that case I can find a better card to play with. Why basically waste a turn just to grab something else, unless you're playing combo? I wish they'd bring back fork, make it only against instants as some hatred against blue. Even Time Walk, by the time it's really lethal, such as when you're untapping a load of creatures for that second attack, you could have just as well used a Time Warp. That suggests to me that it isn't too rough, especially with only one in a deck.
Dual lands should still be around also, because they make perfect sense. Taiga is a forest on a mountain? You don't say! Bayou is a forest in a swamp? It makes sense, whereas something like a Llanowar wastes makes me think "This thing has no business existing except that they suddenly decided that dual lands should hurt you?!?" There is no in-game rationale, it's just supposed to be "more fair."
Apparently there are now different power-paradigms in magic, so it might just be futile to try to get people to understand. Duals let you play more of the cards you want in the same deck, why should I hurt myself just to play Cuombajj Witches in the same deck as a Shivan Dragon and a Jade Leech?
Fast mana lets you get more pro-active while playing with cards that are traditionally "over-cost". Unless you are playing in an environment where no one knows what they're doing at all, you can't make a deck that is predominantly large creatures without some fast mana. Plus, when they swords my 1st turn shivan, I've immediately lost 2 cards to their one (Black Lotus), and I have another dead card that's damaging me (Mana Vault). If I do this often enough (which I can't unless I stack), I'll just see more people popping terror, swords, edict, or even wing snare into their deck.
Every deck can get dead draws, so a proliferation of card-drawers help out to keep the game interesting when you'd normally say "Mana-screw, I 'scoop.'" When carefully regulated, creative and/or utilitarian use of power makes the casual environment more fun. Yeah, you can abuse it by building something that's at least 50% Keeper, but it isn't any different than making a slightly sub-optimal Fires and passing that off. Both will get you smacked. The alternative is to not use any good cards, which if it came to that, I'd stop playing.
I got into magic off of Dungeons and Dragons (Magic looked like a "D&D Card Game" to me, that's why I started playing). Maybe that makes me see the game in a weird light. When I build a deck, I try to fit the spells into an overall theme or concept, and I like to think things like "What kind of planeswalker would I be." To some people, maybe even most people, magic is just cards with numbers on them, and they don't like it when those numbers seem lower or higher than they think they should. I like the feeling of holding a card and knowing it's good, and I don't like "tricky" nonsense that makes two crappy cards great when you put them together. Maybe it's too complicated to explain. The cards I enjoy most are the older stronger cards, but that DOES NOT mean my decks with those cards kill in 4 turns. I feel like someone stole my battle axe, gave me a whiffle-ball bat, and said "here, you're better off, really." I guess I wish magic was more about personal opinion and initiative than it is about overarching theories and regulations. How do you measure the fun I've had with a Black Lotus? You can't. Did I ever complain about decks that included them? No, as long as they were fun to play against, which a great many were. I'm starting to feel like the game I know is not the game that exists anymore, how long ago did everyone get so uptight about things like card-power? I'll say it for the last time: You can make fun decks with power cards. It does not have to mean that your opponent needs power cards to keep up. Think it'd be too tough? Be creative. Sometimes working out a near-perfectly balanced deck full of kick-as cards is harder and more rewarding than the traditional diamonds from offal bit. It can go both ways, if I'm wrong then I guess it's not Magic I've been playing since 1994.
"Again, all in fun. Really."
New format coming Wednesday. Prepare yourselves!
What new format? Now you've got me curious?
Who said something about flames? We are dicussing indeed!
Mana acceleration and card drawing doesn´t make Craw Wurms any better. Mana acceleration makes EVERY card better. Your first turn Shivan could have been a Bargain, eventually ending the game right there.
According to your analogy, would you allow every dude who wants one a machine ? If you and me can handle the power we´ve got properly, fine, it is worth nothing if a psycho kills us just because he had a bad day. Back to Magic, there are tons of cutthroat players and I am very glad that they do not own all the power. I tried long and hard to convince players to build more fun decks but for every "cleaned soul" there will be 2 Moggs. I am fighting windmills and hydras at the same time.
Yes, I am sort of pessimistic after all the pointless games I played in the last years. I am glad that people like you still exist. But reprinting power won´t do Magic in general a favour.
Fires might be as deadly in a one-on-one game as any other tournament deck, but while speaking of casual I mostly mean any sort of multi player. In multi any Fires deck will lose horribly. It will kill one, maybe two players and run out of steam at that point (unless he plays Wheel of Fortune ...). Todays aggro decks are nothing compared to kill-em-all combos and stupid infinite-whatever-monstrosities. Nearly all the cards on the restricted list are fast mana, tutors/library manipulation, card drawing and card recycling. This will inevitably lead to loops. Unbalanced cards create narrow card pools. Remember how boring the Black Summer, Combo Winter and the Rebel Age were.
I can understand all of you who want some of the old cards to toy around with them. But unless you´ve assembled a playing group of enough people who think like you (and me!) you won´t be able to enjoy it.
I agree with you Puschkin, I've been there. Those kinds of people are the reason I've quit multiple times. Thing is, I like the game enough to keep coming back, even if it's just to collect my old favorites.
My problem with not reprinting is then no one will get the cards, because someone like us, who's willing to spend money on expensive cards JUST FOR FUN, is probably the rarest animal in all of magic. To me, it might be worth it to get a few newer players involved who'd never spend the money otherwise. I hate infinite-whatevers, and I won't play against them. I hate illusions-donate, and I won't play against that. I don't see so much of a narrowing of cardspools, as a narrowing of players. In a way, the fact that "it's all about winning" nowadays is what makes it so different than how it was when I started. We used to try to do something creative with our decks. Many times our decks would be an expression of our personal philosophies. We tried weird themes, we played with cards (gasp!) because we liked the art, or because we liked the idea behind the card. Our decks were like characters. In an environment like that, it looks stupid to decrease card power. It looks even stupider when the "new" cards have worse art, no theme (my main problem with new duals is that they don't count as basic land types.), no rhyme or reason (Lion's Eye Diamond anyone?). This post isn't really about this whole debate, this is just my personal opinion. I think that there will be annoying players regardless. Too bad we couldn't reprint the power and make them pass a test to promise they wouldn't abuse it!
In closing, I think what you're talking about might be an entirely different debate. Over the years I've seen exponentially more and more players who are only into tournaments, winning every casual game they play, and ripping off little kids for good cards when they aren't doing that. The other day I was at a shop and three or four guys were all talking about how easy it is to get Birds of Paradise from "newbies", "because it's only a 0/1"! Is there no honor in magic anymore? How many of these kids quit once they realize "that helpful fellow" with the large binder just gave them crap for everything they own! Something like that happened to me when I first started, but I eventually had a better collection than the guy who ripped me off (he gave me commons and uncommons for rares!), so I traded him rough every single time I dealt with him, for years. He got what he deserved . . .
"Readily admits his player analysis only applies to where he lives."
Woohoo! If anyone would like to read an article by yours truly, check it out at StarCityGames.com/magic.php. Guess what, it's about reprints! If you don't see it, check their daily archives (It's 12/19) Am I an aspiring internet writer, or are they just really hard up for anything they can print? Don't answer that!
-HengeWolf, Druid Anarchist
Great article; I really enjoyed it. Hopefully someone at Wizards will get their head out of their arse and listen.
I enjoyed it too. I was thinking about writing an article for the submission contest. Well, good luck with the writing career.
Well said, HengeWolf. It was a great read and I think it will really get through to people. Have you had any response from non BD regulars or WotC yet? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm waiting to get a good laugh out of watching them try to handle this issue.
I've had several responses from random readers, but WotC was (of course) completely silent. Unless one of those "regular guys" that wrote me was a spy or something, but I doubt even Wizards are that devious. I recieved about 6 e-mails and all but one was in agreement. The one guy who disagreed did so respectfully, and recommended that old argument that I can just make color-copies for my friends. Of course, my attitude is that if counterfeiting is an option, then the company should just pick up that slack and make some kind of reprint.
I really expected more hate-mail telling me it would sink the game. I feel that since I saw nothing like that, not even any printed rebuttals on Starcity, that my position must be pretty solid on the issue. I'm sure there's a lot of newer-player apathy, but I really would like to open up a dialog with Wizards on the subject. I'm not sure what to do next, I'm thinking of writing to WotC directly, and directing them to my articles and the petition. It's only got about 50 signatures, but how many people have actually seen it? Any thoughts?
reprint Mana Drain
( get those guys a bus )
for the more stygmatic type:
I think they should have a separate group making decisions about the older cards. R&D can worry about the Type2 sets (and I've got nothing against them), but obviously they're biased against old stuff, because the only thoughts they're having is how the card would impact Type2 and (maybe) extended.
I remember way back when they made Mirage, they were going to make a new colorless mox. It would've destroyed all copies of itself when it came into play. But, "R&D hates Moxes" so they made Lion's A$$ Diamond instead. Gee, thanks for making a card that never had a better use than in an "I'll prove it's a good card" combo with Balance . . . and a Mishra's Factory so you had somewhere to put the mana.
Oh yeah, and that "Broken" Memory Jar abused it. That seems to be my problem, that they hate cards that can be abused, but can also be fun, yet they'll print cards that are downright useless until they find one other card that allows them to be abused.
Mana Drain is a counter I would gladly use. That really says something because my liking for blue has been traditionally reserved only for Time Walk, Time Twister and Ancestral Recall. I used to own 4 Drains . . . can you believe I traded them for a Beta Gauntlet of Might?!? Back in the day that was actually not a bad deal!
"I've owned more Gauntlets of Might than anyone I know . . . 15 at last count!"
on the contrary. how about a petition to ban type 1 altogether.
1 vote from me.
i mean come on people, it is a dying format anyway
on average there are 6 million people playing magic and how many of those are competitive type 1 players? a few thousand..at best.
ban P9 and all the resticted stuff, ban anything which is remotely broken and let us all play a Revised 1.X/1.5 which would include the older sets before Ice Age minus their horrible cards.
and the MINORITY of type 1 players can start playing with less power, after all everyone else does. Type 1 is way too stagnated anyway.
the cards thus can be truly available only for collectors, and nothing else, so the prices wouldnt drop and the people who own them would not complain of new "cheap copies".
type 1 is a type of mistakes, all those years ago those cards were made without people thinking of how the game really was.
We dont see so many "broken" cards these days.
Its because R&D thinks before it prints cards and doesnt print and then think about them.
Few exceptions ( like FoF ) still exist, but in a lower enviorment they are still not as powerful as in type 1.
Ban P9, ban restricted things, undercosted things, overpowered things and let us play with corrected things like Diabolic Tutor, Elvish Cache, Time Warp and Mirage Diamonds. Good cards, which are sideboarded because people didnt calculate before printing their predeccesors.
R&D works also for T1
its just that in every set only a handful of cards see play into the stagnated enviornment.
still.. some cards are almost exculsively there only for T1.
and they did print a Mox. Or are we forgetting Mox Diamond from Stronghold.
dear Hengewolf, i also started playing Magic due to DnD. Role Playing was very fun, and role playing cards seemed cool as well.
I am not an old seasoned player, initiated in Magic during Prophecy, however i have had my share of T1 cards and own a fair number of them.
You say that taking away the power cards would be like taking away your battle axe and then giving you a baseball bat and saying " you are better off with it anyway "
When i first started DnD i was a very lousy DM
And i did many mistakes. One of which was to allow one of my players to get a Vorpal Axe when he was 4th level or so. It sounded cool then when i gave him and we were all having fun, until the player decided to chop the main villain's head off and get cocky and i had to make him " lose " his vorpal axe and instead get an Axe +1.
Now , he complained beyond ends at first, claiming things like what you said " what am i going to do with this baseball bat ? where is my Ancestral and Time Walk? Where is my Vorpal Axe?"
well, what i told him was that i did a mistake by giving him the axe so i had to ban it. Later in the game he was skilled enough a fighter not to bother with Vorpal anythings and he was very happy with the rational weapons he had.
I hope you see my analogy.
I understand your analogy perfectly. Thing is, you CAN construct a campaign where something like a Vorpal Axe isn't so bad. In one game I remember, there was a powerful item, a metallic neckbrace actually, that could negate a vorpal effect. Not unlike, say, a Powder Keg blowing up all your Moxes for two mana. My point is, and has been, that if you play conservatively, ie not just out to win, win, win, then you can play with the power and have fun with it. Maybe it's just a mistake to some, but I'd have never even stayed in magic if I hadn't had Moxes and dual lands, et cetera, to keep me interested. It's all an opinion. The old attitude toward restricted cards was much the same as an attitude toward basic land, if you are a REAL red mage, you'll own a mox ruby. It was like a badge of honor, telling your opponent that you OWNED red. If you weren't around for these cards, I don't expect you to understand.
Make a fun deck with a lotus or some moxes in it. Throw them in your type2 deck. Let me know just how absolutely game-breaking they are. Better yet, go ahead and read my article on StarCity (12/19 archive).
As far as banning cards in Type1, that would cause a full-fledge revolt! All the Type1 players would quit, there would probably be a new non-DCI league set up to accomodate them. Type1 IS power cards, without them it's not Type1, it's 1.5. I've thought about judicious bannings in Type1 (and the power 9 wouldn't be touched, although the Library would probably be nixed). Thing is, Type1 is by it's very nature the only format in which every single card is legal. The only cards banned in Type1 are the throwers (Chaos Orb and Falling Star) because they are difficult on the rules (did he really throw it from a foot? Should I get a ruler?), and the ante cards obviously. Everything else is fair game, and that is what the format is all about. There are plenty of people who love type1, and they are mainly in a minority because the cards are impossible to get compared to Type2, and wizards gives no real incentive to play it. If you want to turn pro, you'll make more money playing Type2, and that's the format they advertise. I'll leave the better players on this site to explain why Type1 can be considered a superior format. Sure, the cards stay the same, but no one complains about using the same old chess pieces. Type1 doesn't allow Wizards to push new sets, so they also demonize it as "unbalanced" just to make sure the new players don't take it up. It's a different game really.
As far as "balanced" cards go . . . I'm not really sure who wants "balanced". Take diamonds as an example, they might as well say "lose a turn to put a mox into play tapped". So, instead of people using them for fast mana, they just forget about diamonds, use the "mana curve," and play only with cheap spells. Diamonds are balanced but they aren't used very often. That's what you get with the balancing act, a whole bunch of cards that aren't offensive toward anyone, but then they aren't really appealing either. Look at Call of the Herd, if it cost 1 more mana it would be a fancy Hill Giant, but for one mana less it's in tons of decks! This is because it is way better than all the Hill Giants out there. So much for balanced . . .
Another balanced dud is the Lotus Blossom from Urza's Saga. It costs 2 to cast, and then you need to wait three more turns before you even get more out of it than what you put in! Has anyone ever played with this card? No, because it's "balanced". Basically, when you say something is balanced you're saying that it's not good, and hence it'll never see use in a really good deck. I personally wish every single card was good, because even in Type2 you need certain key cards or you don't play competitively. The only difference between that and Type1 is that there are repeated influxes of new cards in Type2. So you still end up playing a net-deck in the end, only now you need new cards every 4 months.
I didn't say a Baseball Bat, I said a Whiffle-ball bat. This is important, because in Type1 you can play with an Atomic Bomb, but I only had a Battle Axe to begin with. If I took everything restricted out of my current casual deck and tried to "balance" it out, I'd be left with an occasional 5th turn Shivan, maybe a few shocks before hand, and a bunch of pain-lands killing me because I'm playing R/G/B. It's a fun deck, it can win on a very rare god draw by turn 4-5, (on a perfect draw with no disruption it can kill on turn 2, but I need all the cards I draw to be specific, so it never happens). Games against this deck usually last much longer. It's a weird fun deck with Sedge Trolls and Shivans, a bunch of fast mana, dual lands, and a spectrum of disruption from duress to creeping mold. Since (I guess) it's basically an aggro/control deck, it's unfocused. The restricted/older cards are what helps it win. Without them, I'd have to keep taking dead cards out until it was mono-red Sligh or something similar. That's my argument, that you can play the cards just fine in casual, you don't have to "break" them, they are not inherently "broken". It amazes me how many people, when I introduce my deck as Type1, first ask what turn it kills on, and then are amazed when it doesn't just combo them out in three turns. IN CASUAL, there are so many fun things you can do with restricted cards, and many newer players apparently don't even realize it. I've considered no longer introducing my deck as Type1, because of the preconcieved notions.
The original point of magic is that you are a near god-like planeswalker, so I'd rather be making crazy god-like plays instead of just playing a deck full of cheap spells and creatures, or hands full of counters. The other thing is that I refuse to build net-decks as long as I'm playing casual (I'll be building a Keeper when I eventually try to get back into the Tournament scene). Most importantly, magic was, and is, just fine before they started deciding everything was bad.
If any of this sounds sort of flame-ish, it's only because I've tried to cover all my points as quickly as possible. I've got nothing against anyone, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think everything that needs to be said has already been said, but I don't blame anyone who doesn't feel like sifting through this enormous thread.
en-Ass: I hope you understand my position, which is that there is no definitive "right" or "wrong" way to play magic. Good, Bad, or Broken all depends on your playing style.
Even if they don't reprint power cards, AT LEAST reprint duals, even if with new names and artwork so collectors can retain some value. These don't win games for you, but they sure give you more options for multi colored/splash color decks. By the way, you will only play in a tournament if you live in a large metro area where comic and gaming stores can actually be in business for more than a year or so. Therefore, for all of us in rural environments, casual play is all there is. In fact, I can't even tell you what cards
are and aren't allowed right now in type2 (mainly because I don't care about some dumb arse tour...I'm not freakin' flying to Osaka or Egypt to play for $250,000) Still, keep giving me knew expansions with new cards for me to collect and find creative ways to use here at home or with my friends. In that respect, it's like buying a new issue of a comic book (as it is, Wizards keeps trying to shove some stupid story down our necks) where you buy the new cards because they are new and different and "next".
Well, the main thing I wanted to get across is they should reprint the duals if nothing else. Maybe if some of those "kiss asre" proplayers would push the issue on the net or in interviews...
I disagree with that analogy, Paladin. Banning the power cards isn't the same thing as not reptrinting them. The difference is that there are now only a handful of players that have power and the rest of them can't compete with that kind of advantage.
A closer analogy would be if you had let the one guy keep his Vorpal Axe, then said "Ok, no more good equipment for the rest of you or your ennemies, that axe is too good". That sounds just a bit less fair to me, but it's closer to what's going on in Magic land right now. Just my 2 cents.
Darius: Good point, I was about to write something similar.
I've been thinking that D&D and Magic are really incompatible . . . analogy-wise. The whole thing about the vorpals, is that they have a potential to imbalance, but in D&D you can just skew the game a bit to compensate. D&D, unlike Magic, is VERY open-ended, you can create whatever you want when you are the DM. Any balance problems that arise are not from any particular items, so much as a lack of creativity in dealing with said items. That being said, for the record, I tend to be very stingy with Vorpal weapons, but that has nothing to do with how I play magic.
Imagine if Wizards (who now owns D&D) decided "Since a vorpal weapon is sometimes, but not always, imbalancing, lets just remove it from the game entirely so no one can have it, ever." That would be closer to what's going on with magic. And THAT being said, where the hel is my Staff-Spear in 3rd edition?!? Good thing it's D&D so I can just add it in without debating it into the ground.
Henge Wolf I really appreciate what you are saying. I started playing when The Dark was new, and I still love the feeling of trying out new cards and comming up with new decks. The thing is, it doesn't really matter if I make a crappy Thrull deck or a Keeper-ish deck with all the power; I have a great time playing with both. Yes the Thrull deck will lose horribly to a more serious deck, but who cares? I don't WANT to make it better by putting in Mox Jet, Lotus, Tutor etc. That's what casual means to me; playing because you love the game, not because you have to win all the time.
One of the reasons that I wholeheartedly support your efforts to reprint the power, is because I remember what made me quit Magic and sell most of my collection. I have always been a t1 player, simply because I prefer a fun game over a balanced one. I found no joy in going to the MtG store in my town and play t1 decks against 14 year olds with nothing but commons. I always brought along a bunch of proxy decks just to let them experience how fun magic can be (yes i also think that summoning a Shivan on turn one is fun), and I see no point in that cards should be limited to the handful of people that have enough money/contacts to get them.
Type 1 was basically dead here (I live in Sweden) when I quit playing, and I don't find it in any better shape now. I'm not saying WotC should put as much resources in t1 as they do in t2 (where the most money is), just print enough of the hard-to-get cards that anyone who wants to try t1 has the possibility to do so. What harm would that do? I understand if collectors don't want the value of their cards dropped, so just make the new print run white bordered, new artwork etc. All the arguments have already been made, it's just a shame that WotC turns a deaf ear. I'm beginning to feel that they just don't give a d*mn...
heres my take on it...
i cant imagine what it would be like to go out and buy the power cards, then have these come out. but most t2 players dont make an effort to get these so there probably wont be a big price change.
i desperately am trying to get into t1 without playing moonblue (i have drains but no duals and no power) so all i can do is play on appr, and it is by far the most fun format. but i cant play competitive IRL because i dont have access to almost all old cards, and thats including things like bounty of the hunt and elvish spirit guide, so i couldnt even play sligh and/or stompy. not to mention that there is NOWHERE around here with t1 tourneys. t1 is dying if not already dead, which flat out sucks.
Hehehe. They should reprint the power with white borders, new artwork, and new names.
Rico: Ha! I see someone has been reading the reserved list policy.
Nix: I've owned all the power in multiples, if I own an Alpha Lotus (which I do), it won't become any less rare because of a reprint. It'll still be worth tons just for esthetic value. IMO the whole "value" issue is a moot point when no one can get the cards, and the format slowly chokes to death. In the short term, if you really want to play Type 1, buy the cards a couple at a time or get some CE. I've been playing with lots of CE cards for a while now and no one has noticed. I wouldn't recommend it if you're entering a lot a tourneys, but if you really just love the format they're economical and look just as good.
Erik: I've got a fungus deck with nothing "powerful" in it but a regrowth. It's fun, and I wouldn't get rid of it for anything. I don't play with the power all the time. Fungus would look funny with a Black Lotus in there! You've reiterated what I've been saying all along, that the format is fun regardless of whether it's "broken" or "unbalanced". Wizards shows Type1, and old cards in general, zero respect. By not supporting it they are essentially killing an entire variant of gameplay. They can continue to hide behind things like the reserved list for only so long, but it's going to take more hardcore Type1 players getting behind it to make them change their policy.
Everyone out there who owns the power should want to see it reprinted. If you are lucky and you live in an area where there are lots of opponents, that's great. Just remember that elsewhere the format is dead from lack of new blood. Which is better, new players and fresh opponents, or a collection of expensive cards that'll eventually be little more than wallhangers. Something to think about.
As far as Wizards is concerned, they are making a monopoly of Type2, and although the DCI supports extended considerably, you'll notice that the actual company doesn't even help out that format. They think there is only one way to play magic, and of course, they are wrong. I fail to believe that there is not enough room in the magic universe for a supported Type1 AND Type2.
Furthermore, I'm about to start writing Wizards directly, but I want to make sure I do so in a professional manner. Anyone who might know anything about this . . . all suggestions are welcome.
Thanks to everyone who signed on to the reprint petition. I've continuously had an overwhelming positive response . . . from those who've bothered to respond at all. It's not opposition so much as apathy that we have to worry about.
If any wizards guys have ever read this stuff, I urge them to contact me. This is definitely not an open-and-shut debate. I'm willing to listen as well as talk. What else can I say but that?
WE SHOULD ALL STOP BUYING CARDZ
and play with proxies. We could organize our own competitions and championships. BUT USE proxies!
Not only will you all be able to play with those "expensive" pieces of paper but it will teach WOTC a lesson. (Like: Print better sets + CHEAPER prices).
i guess Henge was right:
i was not around back then when people HAD to own a mox ruby to be called a Red Mage..so i dont get it.
but one point which i agree with you Henge deafinitely is the fact that T1 is another game.
totally and truly T1 is way over any other type..in most cases
even 1.5 can not hope truly to match T1
and yes, broken and unbalanced is how you play a card not what it does.
anyway...really.. if its casual play we are playing then we can neglect DCI rulings or make our own.
we have such a thing between us...e.g. Wood Elves can not attack.
Type 1 is a totally different world. I mean, does anyone realize that most young players that have recently taken up magic have never even heard of most Type 1 cards? Black Lotus is the one exception because it has legendary status as being the $400 card. But even then, most new players don't know what it looks like. And even less have actually seen one in person.
How crazy is that?
Truly. The cards look ridiculous by Type2 standards (although Academy seemed worse than most Type1 decks), but it's just that the standards are different. I think that many restricted cards are fun in casual, but I also like the Type1 tournament format better. I like the idea of standard deck archetypes . . . it's not as though in Type2 you have much chance of building a tier1 deck on your own. In my own personal experience I have much more fun with the craziness of Type1 over the "my deck's strength is that it makes the exact same plays every game" nature of Type2.
It's all in what you like, but obviously, as Rico pointed out, most players aren't given the choice. As recently as three years ago I could still find Moxes, etc. in most shops. Those days are gone. Of course you can find them on the internet, but then you have to be looking for them.
I guarantee that if you are a new player without the internet, you probably have no idea the cards exist. If you are aware of them, all you know is that they are old, expensive, and they were taken out of print because "they are broken". Magic is just a game, it's not politics, so why believe anything else? I think a lot of people would be surprised at how fun and challenging the format really is. I've been reading Rakso's StarCity articles on playing Type1 control . . . I'm ready to build a Keeper variant as soon as I can buy the rest of the cards I need. It's the type of deck I would loathe to play in casual, but to me it's a true test of skill to play that kind of deck in a tournament.
Imagine, if you will, an alternate universe in which Wizards of the Coast made a very different decision concerning good cards. What if they realized that everyone wanted/needed Moxes and a Lotus, so instead of taking them out, they made them Uncommon? What about uncommon dual lands? Actually, if the cards had been left in as rares long enough, they would've been easier to get. We could all be playing Type1 style right now and no one would know any different. It's all just an accident of history, as it were. A few decisions changed magic, and who's to say that the game wouldn't succeed in any other marketing track than the one they've taken?
The reprint petition is steadily growing, but I'm wondering how many signatures it needs before it can be considered legit? If Shadow is serious about bringing back articles on this site, I'll have to see if I can write one on this subject. Not so much for the regulars, but so it's a bit more visible to those passing through.
What Admin wrote on Dec. 25 might not be such a bad idea. I went to essentialmagic.com and was able to make VERY good proxies of two of my old decks I had back in 1994...As long as I have enough printer ink,paper,lands(which are almost free), and protective sleeves, I could never buy another magic card. I think it's great!!! If WoTC ignores me, well I'll just ignore them and print my own copies of their cards...all without the gamble of buying booster packs. Like I've said before...in rural area like where I live, all we have is casual play anyway...which is where magic got started from (school recess yards and friends getting together on Saturday nights) and what WoTC has betrayed.
I'm going to look at essentialmagic. It doesn't have a logo or anything over the cardface does it? One of the other "proxy" programs I was introduced to might as well have had "proxy" written across them.
I'm all for Proxies . . . to me it would make more sense for wizards to take back the market, but if they choose not to, then they leave many of us no choice. While we're on the subject, there is a pretty good program at CCGMaker.com. It's a demo but it's not too hard to get the whole thing up and running. With a good printer, you could not only have proxies of real cards, but you have anything from totally new cards, to old cards with new text and/or new art. Unfortunately for me, I still have a printer that barely does color, let alone anything close to the quality needed.
So, Wizards should notice that "proxies" which are counterfeits, are pretty popular. They could fill that void in their marketing with some sort of reprint, but if they choose not to I can't blame anyone for just making their own. I'd play against anyone regardless of whether their cards are "real". To me, it's more about the game than it is about what you "own".
My dream is to get one of my artist friends to actually MAKE me a magic deck. I'd want it like a Tarot Deck, with everything drawn by hand, including hand-scripted text. I'd like it to be as old and arcane looking as possible. Actually, that's an idea I'd like to see wizards try out. Release special decks where all the art is done by one artist. They could also change the nature of the cards (like what they did with Unglued Land) . . . it's something they could do as a collectable. I don't know how many of you remember Wyvern; it was a clunky game, but it was all one artist, and it made for a very cool looking set. I've still got it somewhere . . .
Change the artwork, give them shining, gleaming, burn-your-eyes-out white borders, add cheesy flavor text, all in all type2ify them, and the players will hate them, but still use them. Every time i find a wb, non-revised card in my deck i am annoyed at it, even land. These type of p9 reprint will be worth some money, maybe $15, foil as high as $40, but within a month the old p9 prices will be within ten bucks of where they started.
Right on. Just look at the value on an original City of Brass or Ehrnam, they're roughly the same as they were before Cronicles. Old cards look better, and are more rare. That should be enough reason to give them value.
I hate white border cards, but I'd use them in a pinch. I'm the type of person who would've (historically) payed premium for a black border. There are a lot of collectors out there with similar sentiments. As one of my old friends once said, "If it's not black border, it doesn't exist." That kind of attitude will keep the values up. Unlimited will still have value for it's old-school look and original art. I'm really not sure what their agenda is, unless it's just blind adherence to their "reserved list", and certain "higher-ups" at the company thinking only they know what constitutes good or fun cards. If they're making money, they must be teetering in order to be too scared to change anything at all.
Ok, lets asume that the closest thing we would get is something white bordered with new crappy artwork. I would be fine with that, a tournement legal card is a tournement legal card no matter what it looks like. Unfortunatly, Wizards doesn't care about the secondary card market, they sell packs. The problem is that not enough people would buy packs and wizards wouldn't make money. Realisticaly, it will never happen, though it is still something we can all hope for.
shame on you who are predjudice against white bordered cards..... they still do the same things, same abilities.... i think that some new, white bordered cards are better looking... i like the fact that you guys drive down the price of my white bordered cards though, keep it up
you got my support
I´ll have to INTERRUPT although I decided to leave this discussion.
City of Brass and Ernham Djinn retained their original value cause the chronicles-versions MADE THEM TYPE II LEGAL ! Everybody and his Sister of Flames needed them (by far the most powerful cards in Chronicles) for their Type II decks and of course they want black borders! CoB is still Type II and Ernham earned himself enough fame during his Type II days that he retained value just for Nostalgic Reasons TM.
But, a reprint set of old power cards would never, ever be Type II! WotC has to make money, it´s a company. The make money out of new cards, that is Type II. A reprint-set would influx interest in Type I for a brief period, but with all the power you don´t need newer cards to play in Type I! P9 and fellows are powerful AND extremely rare, app. 20.000 each, not counting ICE/CE. Rarity has a lot to do with prizes, not just white borders. 15.000 out of them are white border Unlimiteds anyways! Prizes would drop immensly.
See it this way: There are 20.000 Loti each (others as well, just for comparison). Some are ripped, some are spilled with coffee, many catch dust in collector´s binders who don´t play, even more are in bad shape and all are slightly damaged every game, despite of sleeves. Most players haven´t seen a Lotus their whole live? Type I tournaments are dominated by Sligh decks that are mosty extended? I say that´s a good thing. Your complaint about Type I is that unless you have all the power you can´t compete and that that´s why Type I is dead. Actually you won´t face any P9 in most given tournamnets. Let them fade away slowly, and become a mere shadow of the past, a legend of Magic.
You can always proxy them up in casual play if everybody agrees or play apprentice, but leave the tournament scene as it is.
Yet another perspective to think about:
You are like little kids who don´t get what they want. Your parents gave you many toys but you want the ones they hold back. That what´s unreachable looks always better than what you have.
The cards are not just cardboard! Many different people have put many hours of work, time and effort into them, regardless of how crappy or great a specific card appears to you. They are selling ideas. You have no right to demand reprinting what you want. You wouldn´t even have the right to copy cards, although this may be acceptable to some degree.
WotC decided to put some of the dangerous toys on the top of that shelf which you cannot reach cause they know that you won´t play with your other toys once you got them. What should they give you next xmas if you already got all what you want? As always the children don´t realize why their parents do this, they blame and curse them. And as always (or as good parents should) WotC don´t decline cause they would spoil all their effort they have done so far, hoping that their children will understand if they are grown up. "Don´t eat so much candys", "But they are tasting good", "It´s not good for you" ...
HengeWolf, from what I read in other posts of yours I begin to understand why you can´t see the impact a reprint-set would have. You admitted yourself that you never bothered with win-conditions other than creatures. You are happy if you played your first-turn Shivan. Basically you are at heart still a big-creature-with-enchantment-wins-game-player, although I wouldn´t call you a beginner. From this and the comments you made about fast mana making bad cards like Craw Wurms playable I conclude that you do not fully understand what all the restricted cards are able to do!
And most of the others who support you probably don´t know either. Paladin (if this one is the same as Paladin en ass) seems to have changed his mind although he started playing too late to see all the offending cards in action. It´s easy to call REPRINT!, especially if you don´t own any of the offending cards and if you never played with them competetevly.
I know that you, HengeWolf, are an exception to this since you own or owned most of the power cards. I also know thta there are some others who do and still favor reprints. They mostly do cause they wish they had more opponents to play against in Type I. You all assume that just reprinting cards would be all to accomplish that. Note that without WotC´s support (won´t do it since they make no money out of Type I besides that reprint-set) and without proper knowledge of the format (Type I is the most difficult and complex one) just reprinting cards woul´dnt be sufficient.
Also, despite of all your positive feedback so far, exspect that most of the regulars who haven´t answered this thread so far wouldn´t sign your petition. They don´t come here and say so just because this topic comes up every 6 months, they are bored arguing about this again and, well, they might not take you serious. Like a parents treat their children sometimes. I for myself wouldn´t have answered this thread if it wasn´t for you, HengeWolf. You, being the only one so far, have decent arguments which are flawless within your own "metagame" of your playing group, experiences you made and approach to the game. I cannot prove you wrong without breaking up your world. For your play group and/or a world full of HengeWolves you are right. But the world isn´t perfect and full of Moggs.
Note that I don´t care if my opponent proxies cards. As long as I can easily figure out what what is and as long as the proxies make sense and don´t make up a third of his deck. Proxy if ya definitadly want to add that card and don´t have the money to buy one. BUT that´s a whole lot different than getting factory sets of all power cards. Making up just some proxies keeps your learning process on track. You´ll discover what the added card is really capable of and what not. Throwing in all the brokeness at once screws up your learning progress. Also there is nothing more disturbing than playing against badly built Type I decks.
Type I is a lost art and reprinting stuff in large scales makes that even worse, ruining multi finally, pissing off at least half of the remaining old-timers, making every new card look like totally crap, breaking their own rules, and, in the end, leaving a bunch of kids with holes in their teeth!
to sum up the above rant, a T1 power reprint would mean less people in T2, and that is bad because money is made only in T2. Another discussion started by Jbay has a unanimous prejudice against buying packs, and singles are assumed the far better value. Remember, WotC makes no money from singles sales, which is probably over half the money spent on T1, which is under half the money spent on T2.
In short, reprint set = WotC bust.
Not really. I just don´t think that reprinting power would accomplish what HengeWolf hopes for. Instead it would screw up multi/casual play etc.
Type II won´t fade but, yes, WotC would shoot themselves in many respects.
What´s your attitude, Liam? Did you just sum my "rant" up or do you agree?
i waver. I lean, currantly, with you.
I am concocting a more lengthy response, but for now: I respect your opinion but I think it is narrow. If you are into organizing multi-player, and casual in general, then the players should have some vague idea of what is fair and/or appropriate. What's killing casual is a mentality, not a cardpool. I think I've actually argued that before.
Puschkin: What's with the mogg reference, I hate goblins! Nothing but Dragons in my world!
I'd like to respond to a few other points, but that will be forthcoming. I'm posting my deck over in the casual mill, if anyone cares to look. Don't expect anything more than a sample of my playing style.
"Who's not half as naive or irrational as he may at times appear."
Here is my idea: compile a list of the arguments for and against reprinting the power cards. I would be more than willing to put some time into this if I could get a little help (I'll do the bulk of the work, I'm just talking about feedback).
What do you all think?
Good idea Rico, this post is getting too long to read the whole thing in one go. I KNOW that the point about a reprint wrecking T2 was argued at least 4 times.
Maybe we should start a new thread. It's getting to the point where I don't even always remember what I've already said. Are there any threads longer than this one?
Now then, I'd like to respond directly to Mr. Puschkin.
On your first count about a reprint being incompatible with Wizard's Type2 strategy; I think that's quite possibly true, or at the very least that is their rationale. However, as a naive optimist, I'll say that it needs to be tried before anyone can say what would happen. I'll bet good money it wouldn't sink the game and they wouldn't lose money. I've explained it enough times. I'll also counter that even if it isn't sound marketing, it's then an example of how marketing is hurting the game.
I'll continue to suggest that a Type1 format can and should be supported, if they won't do it they should almost make it a separate game or something. Sligh dominating Type1? Is this supposed to mean no one NEEDS the power cards? Did anyone ever stop and think that people just like to play with them, as much as they like them for being powerful? When people think of Type1, you think about restricted cards. That type of style is what makes it what it is, even if Darwin Kastle can make a tier1 sligh with nothing in it but a Mox Ruby (or something like that), it doesn't change the fact that certain cards are what the format is about. No P9 in tournaments means no one has the P9. There are decks that don't use them, or only some of them, but I have to say it is you who are naive if you don't think a deck like Keeper, the very epitome of the format, is not popular and/or tier1. What about the much talked about BSB, that has all 9 in it and it's only one color!
I personally have no interest in apprentice except maybe as a practice-device. I'd feel weird if I didn't actually own the cards . . . I'm an ink-and-cardboard player to the end. A digital version of any sort only holds limited appeal.
That whole "little kids" article is the most degrading thing I've ever heard from you. First of all, as a company, they are entitled to sell their product however they see fit. However, that does not mean they are infallible. Am I not enough of a "Magic Patriot" because I dare to question "Big Brother Wizards?" I even see how your argument makes a certain kind of sense, yet you can't possibly think you've got it all figured out. You have a certain attitude toward certain cards, but magic is way too complex as a game. If they put most of the money and prizes into Type2, then people will play Type2. Offering a different format is *giving people more options*. A casual player should have access to any card, they are not bound by DCI authority. You just said that counterfeits are okay to a point. So why is it not okay if Wizards reprints the cards? In essence, they would be making their own counterfeits. No one should ever argue that you have no right to try to change something. And if I have no right to counterfeit or produce my own magic cards, well . . . let's see them enforce that. I'll do what I want in my own home with a scanner and a printer.
To keep this from getting ridiculous, I'll conclude from another post.
That's sort of how I felt. If we get this thing done and someone brings up the topic, we would only have to give a link instead of repeating the discussion. Besides, when we do finish this, me and Hengewolf (if he's up to it) will have something nicely organized to throw at Wizards of the Coast
My reply was in response to GDarius'.
Now then, where was I?
Oh yes . . .
As far as any personal attacks on me, I think you're sorely off base. I'm sure at least part of this is in how I've presented myself. Yes, I like 5/5 creatures, they tend to be my favorites. I stopped using creature enchantments that weren't Rancor, oh, around 1994. My Craw Wurm comment was not meant to imply that I use or endorse the card, I do not. I was trying to show an attitude from the genesis of magic, since even the original playtesters were in love with Craw Wurm. Personally, I'd use an Ancient Silverback or a Child of Gaea in that slot if it had to be that way.
But, I have played WITH Channel/Fireball . . . and Pros-Bloom . . . and Academy . . . and Fires . . . and even those stupid Donate and Bargain decks. I know how these decks work. I didn't find them much fun to play with or against. I know how magic works, I just enjoy reverting to a more elemental version of the game. It'll always be more fun for me to kill someone with a Berserked Juzam than it will be to pull UnderWorld Dreams, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, Fork. But, I've done both. I can even tell you how the power9 works. The moxes are fast, but by themselves they are only about half as good, until you pair them with card-drawing. Once you draw extra cards, you draw into so many more fast mana sources, that you can play them all in the first few turns at least somewhat routinely. However, in a deck without profuse card-drawing, moxes are essentially basic lands unless you get them in your opening hand. Even at that, when you do get them, if you miss one land drop or one turn playing a spell, then you've just negated any bonus you may have aquired. Therefore, the real enemy is card-drawing. I'd face decks with "just" a few moxes all day long. Fast mana is almost useless without card-drawing, that's why Type1 Sligh doesn't even use a lotus. I think Kastle even mentioned that in his opinion, Lotus didn't make the cut unless you were playing with cards like Timetwister or Stroke of Genius. After all, it is card disadvantage. I'm sure someone will refute that, but actually, by arguing that the "power" is not ALWAYS useful, you're furthering my argument that in some situations they are okay to play with. As far as asserting that since Sligh is good, there's no need for the power? What would be the point of that, if everyone who played type1 just wanted to play Sligh it wouldn't be Type1!
You know, I think the difference between Type1 players and Type2 is that the Type1 players play with the cards because they like them, whereas the Type2 players play with them because they're told to.
Just so I'm not miscontstrued, I'd like to point out that I am not against card drawing. However, Card Drawing is definitely the "breaking point" for nearly all combo decks, and is probably the most broken mechanic available. Ironically, they still produce quality card-drawers from time to time. I like the Symmetrical Draw 7s myself, I find them pretty fair, unless they're untapping academy at the same time dammit!
Anyway, I understand your points but I respectfully disagree. If there are so many cutthroat, no fun players out there that any kind of power influx will just ruin everyone, then that's a pretty dismal forcast for this game. I'm not even saying you're wrong about that. I know things are bad around here, I can hardly find a good casual opponent any more in any format. I guess I must be a real freak for voluntarily skipping the usual player-evolution to tourney-competitive-player. For me the bad-player apocalypse has come and gone, I can't see how it can get worse, only better.
The whole argument about old vs. new carries little weight for me. To me, asking to forgo demonic tutor just so the company can sell Vampiric Tutor, Diabolic Intent, Demonic Consultation, etc. is only a dubious reason. I understand the reality of the market . . . they want to sell new cards. I'd just as soon see them slow it all down. In a world where the best interests lie with the game, asking to ditch a card just so they can try to sell you 100 different inferior versions is like someone selling you a chess set, OOPing the Queen, then telling you "here's eight different chamber maids to take her place". They might be almost as good, they might even be as good in limited situations. But it's not chess anymore, it's just a scheme to get you to spend more money. Wizards are RICH, because they've created a game that you can't stop buying. This turns many people off, and although they are making lots of money, they just aren't reaching as many people as they would if it were different. I'm not expecting them to change, this is just the way I see it.
-HengeWolf, Druid Anarchist
"This is either the best, or the worst, series of posts I've ever done."
Rico, let me know what you want to do with all this. I know I've restated the same thing about 25 times, but if you have any ideas, or you want any feedback from me, let me know. I think that most of this gets down to opinion, which at least means we can't be wrong. I would love to be able to present Wizards with something, that's the only way any of this is going anywhere. I don't even care if they decline it, as long as they recognize it and consider it.
Wow, I've written enough for one night.
-HengeWolf, yet again.
You and me both have written long enough and late enough into the morning.
I would like to collaborate via email and then post a fairly comprehensive draft sometime next week. Akk, what am I doing? I should email you. Check your mail Monday morning.
Whoa, I did not mean to attack you! I just concluded from what I heard that you are the big creature guy at heart which is true. I said that I won´t call you a beginner.
I don´t say that Keeper could play without P9. My argument was that there are already so few players who have no power at all that TI tournaments look like 1.5 tournaments with cheap power a la Sol Ring. The power is waning and I have settled with this idea. Type I tourneys ARE nearly powerless because nearly noone HAS power. Thus you don´t NEED power to compeat in Type I, thus there is no reason to dismiss Type I.
I feared that the little kid/parent analogy would upset you. I just did not know what to say. Concentrate on the arguments. You don´t want to play with the lesser toys once you got the ultimate toy. And YOU is ment to be the AVERAGE player, not specifically you, HengeWolf. I could hand you beta, signed, foiled Factory set and I know that it won´t hurt your specific environment. But you don´t ask for votes for your personal set you want them for the masses. And the masses are more like kids.
I am the last who would say that Wizards is always right. But they have good reasons in doing so this time.
You want Demonic T back. I can´t blame you for that cause you played it many times and are used to it. Wizards made one mistake initially in creating the first Tutor that was that strong. Without it you wouldn´t explain about watered-down spin-off cards like Vampiric or Diabolic Intent. And that´s it! Because of that Demonic Tutor all other future tutoresque cards look stupid. You have three options now:
Print Tutors that are equally powerful. I hope that you´ll agree that this would result into overkill and unplayable formats anytime soon.
Print no new Tutors at all. Since there are power cards of all possible kinds they could not print any new cards at all.
Print powered-down versions like they are doing now.
Basically you want to play with the same cards over and over again. Although you use odd cards you have your slots in your decks that contain the same cards every time.
Most players prefer some fresh cards from time to time. I agree that wizards pumps out sets too fast and that the new sets contain too much crap - but crap is crap due to the existance of power cards.
I just wanted to explain some of my points. This could go all in circles from now on, so I will leave.
HengeWolf, I know now why I was debating so long and hard.
Anyway, I understand your points but I respectfully disagree. If there are so many cutthroat, no fun players out there that any kind of power influx will just ruin everyone, then that's a pretty dismal forcast for this game. I'm not even saying you're wrong about that. I know things are bad around here, I can hardly find a good casual opponent any more in any format. I guess I must be a real freak for voluntarily skipping the usual player-evolution to tourney-competitive-player. For me the bad-player apocalypse has come and gone, I can't see how it can get worse, only better.
Hmm. I'm going to have to agree here; you can't start printing versions of good cards as they are because they would break formats completley, you have to water them down. The problem is that if you water down any drink enough, it will become similar enough to water that there's no point in calling it anything else.
What I'm getting at is this: you need to limit power in some way but I don't think that wizards should be coming out with cards that are blatantly and directly inferior to older ones.
I heard an argument before like this in a Bolt/Incinerate/Shock context; Lightning bolt was too powerful, so they printed incinerate which was more balanced, but in a way that makes it comperable to the original (it costs more mana but you get a slight advantage in the effect). Shock on the other hand, costs exactly the same for the same effect only a bit worse. I will never approve of something like that. Same thing with Diabolic Tutor, same effect for a higher cost. At least Vampiric looked like it was up to par with Demonic.
Take a lok at the mirage diamonds; they cost more than moxes for an overall worse effect. Powered down cards are ok, but these are being f***ed up to the point that no one uses them (seriously, what was the last time you saw someone play a Moss Diamond?).
Wizards started with ancestrall, worked down to Brainstorm and ended off with ... Concentration??? Is anyone else sickened by this or are you all glad they're keeping our toys away?
Oh, on the subject of toys, Puchkin; I'll have to disagree with your analogy too. They're not keeping the ultimate toys away; they've let us play with them already and have now decided to "put thm away" because they got some worse toys for us to play with. Sounds just a bit less justifiable that way doesen't it?
-GDarius who misses his Barinstorms
Well, my reason for reprinting older cards is this: a lot, if not most magic prayers are teens or people in their mid 20's. Getting expensive cards is out of the question. I am a t1 player, I am 17, and there is no way i can get ANY power, i just cant simply afford it. I think thousands of people are in my shoes right now, and thus, this makes a good argument for the older cards to be reprinted.
JUST MAKE SURE THAT THEY WILL NOT BE WHITE BORDERED!
Even white borders are fine, Unlimited cards would be nice to have. But I fear any new art, and especially flavor text (not that any power cards have them now, but god damn, I don't think there's been any real quality flavor text since Saga at the latest).
im not paladin
its some other guy
i kindly ask him to resolve our nickname difference in a civilised matter
pardon me, but i think p9 art sucks
look at those moxes... the diamonds look nice
the sky diamond.. looks POWERFUL
and what about that time walk? a GREAT dissapointment when i first saw it
and i was laughing at ancestral recall.
the best art out of them is Twister
and even that isnt so great
if everyone casts first turn 6 mana spells, draws on average two cards a turn and casts mass destruction for a negligble mana cost, might as well have everyone cast 6 mana spells 6th turn, draw one card a turn and cast mass destruction with a big cost
no reprint, for the benefit of all of us
a note on the power saturation:
i made a deck a few weeks ago and it is a 1.X deck
it is more powerful then the type 1 version which i could make
i could only add a regrowth if i made it T1, but in extended i can benefit from 4 FoFs
my point is one made by puschkin earlier,
i dont know alltogether too many people with any Power, mostly T1 players ( like me ) use 1.X/1.5 decks with academy, demonic tutor, sol ring, regrowth, balance, yawgmoth's will, wheel of fortune and sometimes a fork , a berserk and a mana crypt
not saying that we dont have power around
amazingly in a recent T1 tourney in our small town of population 40,000 we had 4 lotuses, 2 complete sets of P9s and an assorted number of BE-UL-AN-AQ-LG power cards between 18 people.
I'm afraid it's all about CASH...WoTC does not care the least about my opinion or even a collective opinion amoung MTG players. All that matters is a profit graph where the right side of the graph is higher than the left side. I'll wager that no matter how much petitioning we do (I do agree with and have signed the petition) a reprint will only come about as an effort to revive MTG when it slides in sales to it's eventual demise...what'd you expect? For it to be around forever? I say PROXY our hearts away while there's even still websites around focusing on the game (which, by the way, have begun to disapear).
--Andy T., (*wishing for a reprint of duals*)
Frankly, I started playing like four months ago, so I have no experience of the "good old days," when everyone had duals and moxes. However, I only play T1 casual, so I know the fun of playing a Tutor or Lightning Bolt. I would never play something like Vampiric Tutor (which is worth like twice what a Revised Tutor is worth) or Diabolic Intent. However, though I do have duals, I don't have anything like the P9 that a lot of you have. My most valuable cards are probably duals or my 2 BoPs. I'd love to get some P9, but the cost is insane, even for Collector's Edition stuff. Interestingly enough, I've never bought a pack in my life. I bought a few collections on Ebay, then traded a bunch. I have a bit of T2 stuff, but nothing like Rages, Undermines, CoTHs, etc. I picked up 3 Calls, but sold them on Ebay because 39 bucks was better than 3 crappy T2 rares. Anyway, T1 casual rules. I'm currently kicking rear with my Saproling/Thallid deck and my wipe-the-board-clean Pestilence deck, which features Death Speakers, Pestilence, and Sphere of Grace. There are still good cards being printed, but I feel that anything that can hurt your opponent like Nether Void, Traumatize/Haunting Echoes, or Trix is just a mean deck. I rarely play that stuff, just because Magic is supposed to be fun. That's why I don't do draft tournamants, since 15 bucks for the chance at 25-35 bucks of T2 crap doesn't interest me.
To sum all this bs up, massive reprints of all the killer A/B/UL stuff, like the Moxes (like boxes), Psionic Blast, Ice Storm, etc would definitely be cool. I'd probably even be willing to buy packs if that happened.
You just contradicted yourself. You fear Trix and Nether Void and think that they are frustating to play against? Well you are right. And that´s what you gonna face all day long if you reprint the old cards.
"The old days" does NOT equal all people having Moxes. The old days: Everybody was playing for fun, the game, it´s cards and the mechanics had to be explored, people were on even footings (in card stock), WotC supported more formats than Just Type II and limited, players were mostly migrated roleplayers and not cutthroats, card prizes were equally related to card power, rarity, artwork, theme and overall coolness, you could play all day long against any number of unknown players cause there were no endless errata, B/R lists, rules changes, stiffy formats etc. you just played with what you came with and had fun. On top of that we ALL had no really clue how to play this game and there were NO internet sites and thus no netdeck.
In fact most players got their P9 afterwards. Magic is never as fun as when you begin playing. We had the luck back then that we were all beginning. The power cards existed and where accessable back then but we did not realize what you can do with them, they were just good cards and if someone offered you several other, not so good cards for it, you traded them away.
Gunslinga, it seems that you are having fun right now with your decks. What you decribe is excactly what casual is about. You don´t need power to have fun. Fun ends if everybody has them.
Now your arguments are just subjective. "Fun ends if everybody has them." You *cannot* say such things, because I can just counter it with "Fun begins . . ." And where does that get us?
Your argument is no longer making sense. Delusions is worth $5. If people want it, they can play it. Putting power in the deck will make it better, but it WON'T, it honestly won't, cause more people to play delusions than are already playing it. Why would they? Delusions isn't even a tier1 Type1 deck, so why would, by your reasoning, every casual player be dieing to play with it? Most Casual players don't like Combos. Many casual players won't even play against combos. I'd say at least 51% of ALL players loathe combos like delusions, and wouldn't play it except in a tournament, and only then because it wins. I've read the articles, the consensus is clear. I think part of a flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that any type of power card will cause all "casual" players to immediately lose their urge to have fun, and only play to win. We have power cards now, they're numerous and easy to get. As Rico mentioned to me, against many a casual deck, a Wrath of God is way more broken than a few power cards. Anyone can play delusions . . . yet I don't see any at the local stores!
I don't have a problem with Nether Void, it's powerful, but it's fair because it effects both. It's a weird card, it requires a deck to be built around it. I'm sure it's ridiculous in a group game, but then so is Rhystic Study!
Reintroducing power cards would not cause people to become pure combo-maniacs. Maybe it happened to a few people with Urza's Saga (and don't say all, you weren't everywhere ), but there is just no precedent that ANY influx of any type of card would have a gross negative impact on the game.
If I'm contradicting myself at all, more than likely I've rethought a few things. In particular, just from meeting a few sympathetic players, I've totally revised my previous opinion that 8 out of 10 magic players are Trolls.
Puschkin, I've been trying to get into your mindset, and I can only conclude that you must have to deal with some really bad players in your area. I have to deal with a few, everyone has to. I've spoken strongly about this before. You know what though, in the last week I met about 4 different players who look at the game much as I do. Two of them want the power for the reasons I've mentioned, two more plan to make proxy decks so they can play against my stuff. Not one of these guys is out to do anything but create fun for all involved. My point, although you definitely don't NEED power cards to have fun, lots of people have fun using them. Just because a few don't like or abuse them, that's no reason to make sweeping judgements on who should have them.
What cards I personally like or dislike are irrelevent, because if there is a strategy or card that I do not like, I will face it down regardless. If I win, great. If I lose, oh well. If I lose repeatedly I don't play against that deck/card with my current deck, and I either ask for a new opposing deck, or I (better yet) build or alter a deck in response. This is how magic is supposed to be. If someone beats my Thallid deck with a delusions deck, I'll just say "whatever" and go on to another opponent. It doesn't make Thallids less "good" as a casual deck, you will always find someone in casual who leans a little further in the winning direction than you do.
I cannot accept your notion of causality between introduction of power cards, and the inevitable disintegration of the game into 1st turn kills and combo-mania. It is pessimistic, and totally unprovable. The decks in question are quite operable without power, so in a way the power cards we're mostly talking about are irrelevent to a debate over what is fun. You can make a combo-riffic academy with nothing but newer cards, same goes for bargain. Both will slaughter a casual deck, probably over half the time depending. A mox set might get them a few more wins, but they're already ahead anyway. They are not decks that most casual players want to see, regardless. Making them win even more than they usually do would probably decrease their popularity even further.
I almost get the idea that there are a few decks and/or strategies that you like, but that apparently get creamed by "better" decks. You want a format in which suboptimal decks and strategies are better. In casual, this can be anything, there is no prize, and no dishonor if you lose to something clearly built with more winning focus than what you chose to implement. However, I do not understand how you seek to apply tournament style restrictions (no cards of this sort EVER) to a CASUAL game. Magic should be about options! I'd think most players, even casual players ("because if we were smarter, we'd all be tournament players" Isn't that what the "officers", I mean "pros" think?), would have the capacity for abstract thought enough to realize their 35 cards restricted deck might be a little overpowering against their opponents Homarid deck. People have brains, they can discern for themselves what's fair and what isn't. In casual what's fair is whatever gives your opponent a chance to win. A deck like that can contain 20 dual lands and every restricted card. A deck that doesn't meet that criteria, and hence isn't fun, might have nothing more expensive than a Morphling. All in all, fun should not be considered much outside the group you play with. What's fun for one is not fun for another, and it's easier to voluntarily not play with cards than it is to want them and not have them available.
Furthermore, I'm working on a stone-cold logical set of arguments in our favor. I'll be taking most of the counterarguments and attempt to debunk them as well. I've said a few things on this thread that don't always further the cause, but I firmly believe that there are way too many logical arguments in favor of a reprint.
I was informed today that a huge recent glut in Collectors Edition sales is probably due to people "rebacking" them and calling them beta. People are willing to mutilate factory sets just to obtain a playable, yet altered, version of these cards. In my magic career, I've come up against proxies dozens of times. I'm not talking about "sticker on a land" deals, I've owned about 3 moxes, a Lotus, and a Gauntlet of Might that were true counterfeits right down to the cardstock. These types of things are popular if you know how to get them. The genie is out of the bottle, and the time for sentiment has passed. This isn't about what I like or what I play with, it's about filling a basic demand that they've been content to fill with only counterfeits and proxies that make them no money. They leave anyone not willing to conform to Type2 out in the cold, and I find their "brave new world" attitude disgusting. Of course they'll tell you older cards suck, they only want you to buy the newer ones! One writer hit it right on the head when he said Type2 was created when Wizards realized that power cards were so popular that people were clearly more willing to buy them over anything newer. With the prevalence of Type2 as the tourney field of choice, I think there is finally room for both styles. Notice that the whole "broken" argument is really more a marketing coverup that it is in any way a valid or objective statement about what makes the game good. Pure and simple, it's taken years of propaganda to make people believe that "these cards are bad" as opposed to "these cards are good".
It is smarter to let people have a more equal access to all cards, and then let them decide individually what they care for and what they do not care for. When you make broad judgements about what's good for the game, you alienate people. That's not good marketing strategy, and the fact that I know 3-4 ex-magic players for every 1 I know who still plays, speaks highly of a game that is currently only interested in pumping out your pockets until you inevitably quit. But that's straying into a different argument.
You know, arguing this is like watching two politicians argue economics. Both of us have valid points, differing philosophies, and points of view that always end up somewhere in the haze of opinion.
This is a strong argument, but it is not a flame. I just have to make this clear, particularly to my worthy opponent Puschkin. Really man, I don't see too many reasons why we should argue. It's all about fun, and I'm not trying to ruin yours. The game will survive this if it ever happens. You'll still be able to play casually using any deck you want, and I'm not sure how you can see it any differently.
"It's late, I'm tired, and hopefully when I wake up tomorrow I'll be pleasantly surprised, rather than disgusted, at the way this thing turned out."
"The tyranny of a majority is no different than that of a dictatorship."
I was just in a draft tournament on Friday night for the first time in about six years. I met a number of players who were begining elementary school when I was spirit linking juzams on my second turn in tournaments, and some who have been around long anough to sword to plowshare my same juzam in the same tournament. I have not met ANY individual EVER who believes that a reprint of duals, P9, etc. will hurt or even dramatically change their metagame. Do they think it may hurt business for WoTC? At this point, some say yes, and some say no. It goes without saying that any expansion containing a reprint will sell VERY well, thus causing more business for WoTC. The only logical business thought that I can arrive at is that WoTC may believe that after printing an expansion which includes the reprints (even with new names/artwork/white borders/flavor text, etc.) may cause any further expansions without the same reprints (or cards that generate as much interest as the reprints) to be lackluster in comparision. It makes sense that these further expansions may not sell nearly as well.
Here's where I may have some solutions:
1. Introduce the 8th edition on the 10th anniversary of MTG as a kick-butt edition which "says thanks" to all us who have economically and socially supported MTG for all these ten years. This edition can be made up of duals, P9, and only the best of other commons, uncommons, and rares from All the editions. This "appologizes" to all of us who have felt "wronged" by the business decisions of WoTC over the years, without WoTC having to actually say it.
2. Reprint the said cards sporatically scatered throughout following expansions, however, maintain their printing in the standard editions as they come out. This insures the purchases of numerous expansions and further standard editions as players buy packs in order to get the "good" cards they now know the full potential of.
3. If Wotc's real fear is destroying that damn Type2 format (which I know NOBODY who plays it), then construct a separate "casual play" edition which could be updated periodically to include newer cards. However, DO NOT halt the printing of this "casual" edition as it would be just another "collector's edition" with high-priced copies of the origional cards. Cards from this printing may have different backs or whatever so they are not legal in type2, but all the casual players (which I believe marketing research would prove to be the majority of magic players) can still play the game they love and be in love with WoTC as well.
Do I think WoTC will do anything similar to these suggestions? No. I believe WoTC is like some bosses and managers I know...They will not do anything YOU suggest because it is YOU who is suggesting it, not THEM. I am falling into the belief that R&D at Wizards it bound and determined to show us who "wears the pants" in MTG. If this is true, well that's fine: I gave everyone at the tournament the essentialmagic.com address so that they could make proxies of whatever cards they wanted to play with. EVERYONE at this same tournament was impressed with the proxies I had and NOT ONE person objected to playing againts any of my FULLY PROXIED type1 decks.
And for those who say that duals or P9 create unfair or disrupting power advantages, of the games we played there, my type1 decks won only about 60-70%. But I sure had a BLAST playing. Now WoTC could have sold me the cards I proxied if only they had reprinted them...I guess they are showing me "who wears the pants", huh?
Andy T. ---"Proxy King"
"It's all about selling boosters..."
It's been a while since I joined in on this conversation, so I felt it was time to put my two cents in(again) on the side of no reprints.
I feel that making the most powerful cards available again will be harmful to the casual game in the long run. I am not speaking only of the P9, but also a lot of the other powerful cards - Juzam, Library, Drain, even things like Wheel, Berserk, Underworld Dreams and a few others. In casual play today, the biggest thing that keeps players from using the best cards available is usually their wallet. Reprints would change that dynamic. In small groups of friends, it's easy to establish rules to prevent the proliferation, but how do you control things if your usual place of play is twice a week at the local card store? For a lot of people, that kind of scenario is their only outlet for casual play. Going to the store and expecting you might run into somebody packing an exact copy of the latest greatest net deck is one thing, but going into the store expecting to face power cards every other game is a lot different.
Couple of examples:
Two players, one with a R/G aggro deck, the other with a U/W control deck. Both are relatively evenly matched and they each win about 50% against the other. Now take one player and remove two basic land(one each color) and substitute the corresponding Moxes. What happens?
About 1 in 8 games that player will have at least 1 Mox in their opening hand. That means they will have about a 1 turn jump on their opponent on the race up the mana curve for about 1-3 turns. If you're the U/W player, you might get the Nevy's Disk out on turn 3 instead of four, and get control of the board before your life total gets within direct damage range. The Aggro player might be able to play something along the lines of turn 1 Raging Goblin and Rancor, doing 3 damage before their opponent even has a turn. In either case they have unbalanced the equation in their favor.
Now look at it from the side of the player who doesn't have the Moxes. What do you do? You could just scoop everytime your opponent starts with a Mox, but where's the fun in surrendering 1 in 8 games? You could play out games when a Mox shows, as you will win some of them, but not your usual 50%. Or you could go and get some Moxes of your own and add them to your deck so you can compete at the same level of power.
Another simpler example: Ancestral Recall is such an undercosted wondercard that you could take ANY 60 card tuned deck that runs blue, add an Ancestral Recall without doing anything else, and the deck would be better overall. So WHY wouldn't you do it if you had them available through reprints?
It is this kind of escalation that I feel will be bad for the casual magic environment. There will be enough players who enjoy playing with power cards, and would have reprints of them, that you would have to adapt your game to their presence, just like you often have to adapt to other variables in the metagame.
There was a statement made earlier by Hengewolf:
"The original point of magic is that you are a near god-like planeswalker, so I'd rather be making crazy god-like plays instead of just playing a deck full of cheap spells and creatures, or hands full of counters."
I can see the allure of that, but look at it from the side of the other player. If your opponent makes a god-like play, how do you deal with it? There are a limited number of ways you can deal with a Shivan Dragon on the second turn. Not that it can't be done, but if it starts happening more and more often you have to start constructing your decks to do so. For instance, White can StP it easily, but do you want to have to put 4 Swords in every deck, all the time, just in case?
And how does a Red Mage stop it? Better get lucky and have a couple direct damage spells in your hand. Better yet, get some of those mana accelerators and fight fire with fire. Six mana on turn 2 will cast a Shivan, and 6 mana on turn 2 will also Disintegrate him.
The Ultimate example of this god-like kind of thing is the old Channel-Fireball combo. But just how much fun do you believe it was/is to be on the receiving end of it? How much fun the second or third time it happens? Or any other first turn kill combo?
The problem with introducing reprints into casual play is that you open the door for god-like plays to stop being a rarity and start being somewhat common. They become a factor in the casual metagame, a factor that can't be ignored. You have to adapt to it or expect to lose a lot more often.
Remember the Black Summer of Necropotence? If you wanted to win tourneys then you pretty much either played Necro or Anti-Necro. The Academy deck had it's day too, although it was pretty much limited to Gran Prix Rome. In both cases it was a power card that severely limited the environment and card pool of what could effectively be played.
Here in casual play you could run into the same thing, except you can't easily run an 'Anti-Power' deck. You either play with them, or lower your expectations of winning.
And once they're out in the general public, there's no recalling them. You're stuck with them. And that's why WOTC won't reprint. Not so much because they don't value their Type I players, but because they value their casual players(and the sales they generate) a lot more.
One last thought:
There has been quite a few comments in the prior posts on the differences in reasons for playing/card pools/etc. available to the Type I, Type 1.5/1.x, and Type II players. When you think about it, the casual players, those who don't adhere to a specific format but basicly play decks made from whatever they own and like, probably outnumber the tourney players for all of the Types combined.
I have thoughts on P9 reprint if it ever happens. (If they reprint old cards, probably they will not be moxen and lotus)
I will make some assumptions;
1: Casual players you play with are your friends.
2: They are reasonable people with relatively normal human motives.
3: You play magic non-aggressively in casual games. Not gambling and sweating or readying yourself for tournaments to compete for earning money and rank.
In case of reprint, according to (1), (2) and (3), your group will be able to create a medium to enlenghten magic games and make them more fun. (P9less or power blueless format or something)
Another point is the price. Would the reprint decrease demand for the old power 9? If so, it is unfair to those who spent time and money on collecting those cards for their rarity and price.
If the price for the old cards remain fixed, there is still another problem. Might sound a little despotic, but not everyone is supposed to have a lotus. But that is only a personal opinion.
Anyway it doesn't matter for the people who play on the internet. Everyone has a set of p9 there. :D
I've played MTG in a number of environments, cities, and "eras"(Los Angeles metagame, by the way, is FULL of punk players who are just as bad at loosing as winning...although I have met some really mature players there). I've also been in and around the game since it's inception. I've spent my hard-earned cash on a lotus, moxes,juzam, duals, etc. and am not unaware of what is feels like to see a reprint of a card I tried so hard to trade/buy (such as ehrnam djinn).
Many of my friends come from the same backround as well and I can't think of anyone who thinks their old rares would be worthless in the face of a reprint...For example: I enjoy the "old school" look of beta and unlimited cards and would be happy to pay more money (sometimes doubling the price) for such older cards because of the "coolness" factor alone. Thus, I'm certain you would see a leveling affect in the price of the old rares at worst, certainly not a significant drop in the prices.
Also, I find that the P9 and other rares really don't make a huge difference in gameplay past the 3rd or 4th round. When I put out a juzam on my first turn and you spirit link him on your first turn, that's a game changing play...not that I cast him, but now you're immune to him and I loose one life every turn and you gain one. Or what if you paralyze him on your first turn? I probably just sacked my black lotus or used a dark ritual to cast him, so it will be a LONG time before he becomes a factor again...same thing for a second turn shivan dragon...
My point is that the real power comes from mana production and card drawing...go ahead and go through all kinds of trouble to cast a big creature on your second turn, my COMMON counterspell can handle that. What's really powerfull is the ability to replenish your hand when you run out of cards (a la Ancestral Recall) or the ability to cast multiple cards from different colors (a la Dual Lands). Fast mana spent early in the game can break a game (that's why the cards are valuable) but it can also be a waste when I use four cards of my opening hand to have them successfully delt with by only one of your cards(creating a huge card advantage for you).
My wish at this point isn't so much that the P9 is reprinted but that Duals are reprinted. This is because dropping Duals from the cardpool so drastically restricted gameplay to only one or two color decks that we lost a great deal of deck building options. Replacing them with "pain lands" or "into play tapped" lands is a sad replacement which only pushes up the price of duals.
One problem I have with this is the assumption by WoTC as to what is best for the games we play in my metagame..."that card's too powerfull", or "that creature's too quick" are decisions best left up to the players. R&D for the Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited editions knew full well what the potential for these cards were and they printed them anyway...so let ME decide what I'll play with and not THEM.
Also, what cards I want to play with should not be resticted by inflated prices on OOP rares. If a card is a collectible, I understand that. However, for me not to be able to play with a certain card simply because I will have to sacrifice buying this week's groceries to do it is insane. If a card's worth $25 to $45 dollars because the expansion just came out and the card is still hard to come by (and I'm too impatient for more copies to enter the cardpool) that's a separate issue. But for us to face the truth that if I don't pay some card horder on ebay about $350 for a lotus, then I can't play with it is in no way reasonable.
And what about the preteen kids now playing MTG (which WoTC tends to try to court with thier marketing) who simply can't afford four Underground Seas for his common black/blue deck because that could easilly cost $45 to $60 for all four?
I am very much a practical person and will be the first to tell you that life simply isn't fair (hell, it's rarely even JUST, let alone FAIR). So in the same vain, knowing that WoTC is too stubborn to reprint anything they have deemed "bad" for MTG, I'll just keep printing my own proxies (counterfiets) and playing with any card in MTG I wish. So will the preteen kids, and then they will want all the old rares reprinted once they begin playing with them. It's inevitable that proxied cards will be a BIG factor in the future of MTG card sales...WoTC can't sue every kid in every comic book store across America to get him to buy boosters instead of printing the cards he's wants.
What can WoTC do about proxies? Well, you can't proxy "virtual" cards like those in the upcomming online MTG. I wander is they will take my "virtual" cash for them? Maybe this is the turning point where MTG moves from the cardboard game it is to a version wich only exists in cyberspace (WoTC isn't as haphazard in their decisionmaking as they may seem).
Anyway, go check out essentialmagic.com and make a few proxies of the P9 and play with them for a while. Then come tell me if it really changes your gameplay. Do you feel that you HAVE to have them in every deck you make? Can you enjoy MTG without them, or is it just MORE fun to play MTG with them?
With the 10th anniversary upcomming, it would be a good opportunity to reprint some of these cards, even if it's only dual lands.
By the way, what is a lexicologist? It sounds important enough...
P.S. Does anyone have access to any type of marketing research or software with which we could get some sort of factual statistics concerning this issue? Just a thought.
Andy, do you still live in the LA area? I know this is horribly off topic, but if you're looking for a place to play with good, fun players, come down to Blurry Eyed games in Fountain Valley. It's the only place to play T1 in all of OC, and one of very few who play T1 at all. Phone# (714) 593-8820
Sorry to put another off topic post in such a fun thread.
I wish I would have known that when I still lived there in '99 but I since moved to S. Louisiana. Thanks anyway...
Lexicologist = dictionary man.
The only argument that I keep hearing against reprints is that they hurt casual play. Leaving that issue aside for a moment, does anyone have any other ideas about why reprints are bad?
Andy, that was very well said. I'd also like some statistics on this . . . unfortunately I don't know where to start. Right now, there's a petition at petitiononline.com/mtgoop, but I'm trying to get a solid presentation that we can all take to wizards. I wouldn't even be bothering with this if I didn't think it was a logical and rational step that the company might take.
I particularly agree about Dual Lands, I've played decks with Moxes, and I've played decks without any restricted cards. I can do without the power occasionally, but I cannot play a multi-color deck without Dual Lands!
Duals are the backbone of the popular exended format, yet they aren't reprinted. This to me makes no sense. Duals are also completely harmless in casual play. They let you use 3,4 colors effectively, so you can include more of the cards you like. All they did when they got rid of duals, was make narrow mono-decks much better. They had to make an entire block (Invasion) just to convince people to play multicolor. They had to make all the best cards multicolor, in order to FORCE multiple colors to be good. Things were much better when you had more options, and dual lands = exponential gain in deckbuilding options. Notice that in all the formats with duals, there are still at least a few winning mono decks. I'm yet to hear any reason why dual lands should be considered overpowered, that doesn't break down into "just because". Apparently someone thinks they're good, because they're still in extended despite Revised being rotated long ago. Hopefully if they don't reprint old power (and I'm sure they will eventually, even if it's in 5 years), they'll still reprint duals.
Call me crazy, but I think an abolition of the reserved list would make the game more interesting. Old cards of all sorts tend to have a certain popularity, and to me it makes no sense that they can technically reprint Mana Drain, an uncommon, while they can't EVER reprint Cyclopean Tomb or Gauntlet of Might, JUST because they're rare. As I've said before, for all purposes the Reserved List is only really effecting the 'hard to get' sets (A/B/U, AN, AQ, LG), it's done nothing to preserve the value of newer sets because their large print runs make them available to everyone who wants them. It's done nothing to preserve the values of unpopular old cards either, in some cases like Granite Gargoyle, the card will never again have value UNLESS it's reprinted for Type2, where it might be good. In all cases of extreme card value, it has nothing to do with collectibility, it has to do with the cards being played with. No one spends $300 on a lotus unless they intend to use it. People don't buy crappy rares like Natural Selection, despite it's rarity, so you can get that card for as little as $5.
It is a fact, that the reserved list was only invented due to a negative reaction to cronicles. First of all, Chronicles was full of crappy cards. At the time those cards had good value just on rarity, believe it or not I once sold a Chromium Elder Dragon for $40. Up to $40 for a rare legend was not uncommon, and $15-$20 for a rare Antiquities card was quite normal. I remember when they decided to make Chronicles, many people were complaining about old cards being hard to get. They were talking about the power cards. Instead, Wizards gave us every crappy rare that had any value as a collectible. It only had TWO GOOD cards in the entire set! People were mad, because suddenly all their $40 Gold guys that cost 9 mana of three different colors were no longer very valuable at all. The good cards, Ernham and City of Brass, were affected slightly, but the originals continue to hold a high static value to this day. In response to the outcry, up came the reserved list. IMO they totally misread public opinion through the whole fiasco. People were mad about the availability of *powerful* expensive cards, so they only remade the expensive BAD cards, which solved absolutely nothing. Then, in response to negative feedback, they decided that once was enough, and they will never reprint anything EVER. A little heavy-handed, to say the least. Especially when as a solution it is rediculously inconsistent.
Well, as I don't want to get into this arguement (I know i'll just get all worked up and start argueing as if my life depended upon it), I'll just make a quick correction. There were 3 good cards in Chronicles, Tormod's Crypt, Ernham, and City.
I'm getting a little burnt out on this, actually. I'm a masochist . . . what can I say.
My convictions stand . . . the prosecution rests, for now at least.
"My very first abrupt message!"
I agree. I'll mail you this weekend; I'm too busy with school this week to do anything.
Exactly, that's why I haven't mailed you recently. 14 credits this semester = magic very low on list of priorities. It's really just a random accident that I'm even here to write this!
I'm on the quarter system myself. 4 classes or 16 units, if that means anything to you. Next quarter I want to take 20 units. I'm a machine. Hahaha. I'm turning into an Asian student.
I don't want to offent anyone there. Most of my friends are Asian, which explains why I feel so comfortable making comments like that. My favorite is wishing their parents merry Kwanzaa. Ahh the fun one can have.
Geez. I correct some other guy's spelling and I spell "offend" wrong. Bad, bad stuff.
Well although Tormod's crypt is a good card it's not really in the same cathegory as those other two. The crypt is very situational and useless in most decks, unlike Ehrnam and CoB that were immediately added to a lot of decks as soon as chronicles came out. Crypt is a strong card in the right context, but then again so are Stormseeker, Blood Moon and Recall. Even Feldon's cane deserves mention. After all, we didn't see a lot of Cryptogeddon decks after chronicles came out now did we?
That woiuld still be a better plan than City-ageddon.
Actually that would be a great play, cause then you won't have to take damage from the cities anymore. Just make sure you have a Great wall out before you play it, so you are protected when you drop a plains afterwards
One small flaw with this plan is the assumption everyone is making that these cards would somehow keep their "restricted" status for casual play or whatever. Now, if a set with all the power was released, and moxen were $2-5 each, I could easily play with 5-10 in my casual deck (more, if I was good at trading). Now, one mox every 8 games _might_ be unbalancing (but not really), but having 2-4 on turn 1 is pushing it, especially if I can then do broken card drawing (ancestral, twister, wheel, or even balance *shudder*).
Now, I'm still in favor of all sorts of reprints (even as I work to obtain more P9), but the idea of a deck with 10 ancestrals and 15 moxen is a little frightening.
I just think players need to show Wizards how they can make serious $$$$ on this without disrupting future type 2 sales to get it to happen (collectible invitational decks might just be the way to do it...unless quantities were too limited)
While you don't have to follow tounament rules in casual play, you still have to follow the basic rules (only 4 of each card). Restrictions should be decided by whatever group you play with. For example, my friends and I use the Type I banned list, but don't really pay attention to restricted cards unless they're really abusive.
Reprinting cards wouldn't make the originals drop in value much or change casual play much except to allow people to play more creative, multi-color decks.
actually, the "basic" rules say...40 card minimum decks. That's it. anything else has been ingrained into our heads by repetitive "tournament" decklists/players. Thus, a 20 mox deck is "legal" in the sense that the rules don't forbid it, but it could be pretty uncreative.
I agree that in a good playgroup, this shouldn't be an issue, but as someone said, we can't _assume_ a good playgroup-some people would abuse the reprinting.
That said, I am all for it (Hengewolf, Rico, et. al., please contradict these arguments in your compilation to wizards-otherwise, they may bring this idea up)
One word for the supposed retained value of the originals: That may be true for beta power cards but what´s with all the others? Unlimited Moxes for example outnumber the beta ones app. 4:1. They have white borders and the print itself is kinda ugly in Unlimited, me thinks that they would drop in value significantly.
Next thing, they wouldn´t reprint just the Power9, no? They had to reprint a lot of stuff. But, fact is, that there are a lot of cards that keep their high value only due to their rarity. Two-Headed Giant for example, Blaze of Glory, Jade Statue and other nice cards that are nice but wouldn´t see play often. These cards would drop to what compareable cards are worth nowadays: next to nothing. And noone wants a blackbordered original of a non-staple card.
The rules *do* specify, since Sixth Edition, that a deck is 60 card-minimum, with no more than 4 of each card.
What? That's so stupid. Yet another reason for me to keep playing 5th ed. rules.
What´s stupid about that? Playing 40 card decks with 10 Mountains and 30 Lightning Bolts is stupid. But I agree on 5th ed rules being superior to 6th ed rules.
How, precisely, are Fifth Edition rules superior? Unless you count on your opponent not knowing them. Sixth Edition brought so much clarity to the game.
And you can't really say that reprints are out the window simply because some fool somewhere might use more than four copies of a card in their deck. What is keeping them from doing it now? With your line of reasoning, why is Wizards printing any cards at all?
One more thing. Ff you want to assume the the Power gets reprinted, they will not cost five bucks a piece. As an example, go on Ebay and check the prices of Shadowmage Infiltrators. If you believe that the Moxen will be less popular than that...well, 'nuff said.
Quote: "Sixth Edition brought so much clarity to the game."
Yep. That clarity, however, was brutally forced into the game, ripping out anything that wouldn't fit in anymore. Mogg Fan killing an attacking 2/2 or Morphling being a virtual 5/6 might be *simple*, but it's also plain *wrong*. There's only so many fundamentals you can change before the game becomes a new game entirely (= not a good thing).
Sorry. "There ARE only..." What the hell was I thinking?
Sixth also comes along with many technical things that aren´t really intuitive or easy to imagine. Prevention Shields? Regeneration Shields? Dealing damage besides of not paticipating in the battle anymore? The new trampling rule? Using permanents without paying it´s upkeep first? Countered Spells are still successfully cast?
Next, 5th ed rulings weren´t that complicated once you get the first idea. People screwed it mostly because the game was new and overall knowledge was low. A newbie will screw every timing system, new or old. Why, to the hell, did they add the ability to add new effects to the stacks even after you started to resolve them? It may be clearer now how to resolve effects but it´s way more complicated to calculate when which spell to play! The ability to draw cards and use them in the same stack is hilarious! Ever tried to resolve a Balance or Living Death in multiplayer under the new rules?
And that´s not to say anything about stupid things like functionally changing all artifacts in existance or introducing the term "Haste" for "unaffected by summoning sickness" on the one hand but banning the word "bury" to replace it with the more cumbersome "destroyed without the possability of regeneration" on the other hand!
And lastly, Magic is complictaed to some degree by definition. In spite of that ... no, because of that it attracted so many players! It is an insult to my intelligence that Wizards assumes that I can´t remember that tapped artifacts are shut down!