What card do you hate the most in all of magic

Beyond Dominia: The Rumor Mill: What card do you hate the most in all of magic

By Serra (Serra) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 10:16 am:


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:06 am:

in multi player games... Rhystic study.

It is inevitible that NOONE will be able to pay the extra mana forever, and so the controller of the study ancestrals once or twice a turn!

In duels, it has to be Hymn to Tourach, this card should have been restricted long ago!!


By Ufactor (Ufactor) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:34 am:

donate-'nuff said

By Aargyle on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 12:05 pm:

counterspell. :)

ok, ok, force. :)

(what? I play those? nahh.....)

By Burning Ice, the Elementalist (Burningice) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 01:08 pm:

Morphling. I made blue too powerful. It should have been Green.

I'm not saying I don't play with it because I do. I just don't like it.

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 01:16 pm:

Back to Basics would have been SO in-flavor for green. Big mistake not making this green, especially in a set where blue got a ton of other brokenness.

By Blue Fanatic on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 01:36 pm:

Why do you think blue got all the broken cards??? Maybe because it's ten times better than green anyways...

The most annoying card is Static Orb, mainly in tandem with Opposition.

By Rico Jones, Elfman Extraordinaire (Rico) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 01:42 pm:

I'd have to agree with Rhystic Study. Even in duel it makes all my spells cost one more. My brother packs those all the time. What a pain.


By Puschkin, Defiant Vanguard Against The Phyrexian Invasion (Puschkin) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 02:13 pm:

Tolarian Academy for tournament play.
Gravepact, Congregate, Coat of Arms for multi.

By Henge Wolf (Wolf) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 02:33 pm:

Morphling: Because it's invincible against way too many decks when played correctly. Why give blue the best creature in the game?!?

Black Vise: Back when they printed revised, they took out most of the speedy cards, but still let everyone use 4 vises. It was disgusting.

Stasis: It could be beaten, but it was never fun.
Pair it with a kismet and watch people die of shear loathing. Anyone remember the birds-instill energy-stasis combo?


By Green Knight (Greenknight) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 02:53 pm:

Morphling, the most powerful, environment defining card ever!
Yes I do play her, but also despise her!
Although Back to Basics is a close second, you don't mess with my mana : ).

By Phyrexian Raper on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 02:56 pm:

Multiplayer: Thorn Elemental (it's sooooooo annoying)

1-1: Stone Rain/Pillage/whatever (I already get mana-screwed without those stupid things)

By ses on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 04:19 pm:

Humility is really frustrating to play against. This card hurts most decks in some way.

By Molot, Dark-Elf Timelord on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 07:11 pm:

anything you flip a coin for, and Morphling (though this is so a blue card, in the vain of doppelganger and mist dragon), also pox, donate and Ancestrial Mask.

By Rico Jones, Elfman Extraordinaire (Rico) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 10:50 pm:


This guy at school with mostly revised era cards used to come with the birds-instill energy-stasis-kismet deck. Fortunately I was playing red obsessively at the time.


By Henge Wolf (Wolf) on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 03:23 am:

That stasis deck . . . yuck! The only time I ever had the pleasure of untapping a black lotus was against that deck.

Another deck that was super-annoying was the Chains of Mephistopheles deck. It used howling mines and card drawers to essentially make everyone discard everything. If they had multiple chains out, it got even worse. In many situations it would get so bad that you just had to count the cards in each library to figure out who won.

**If anyone didn't know, Chains of Mephistopheles is a Legends enchantment. It penalizes anyone who draws more than one card per turn by forcing them to discard before each draw after the first. If they can't discard, they put cards from the library into the graveyard. With howling mines and a couple of chains, you can easily be milling yourself for 2-4+ cards each turn, and never be aloud to have more than one card in your hand, ever. Quite sick.


By Troll on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 10:00 am:

My least favorite card of all time is Rishadan Port. Every copy of that card should be burned and the ashes should be pissed upon. Thank god it rotated.

By paladin_en_ass on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 10:05 am:

Balance and Mana Drain

By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 11:27 am:

Back to Basics, because it takes a lot of skill out of the game.

Morphling is easy to kill. Decks just use Edict over Plow now. Same thing.

I *do* with that Morphling didn't have one of its abilities. Doesn't matter which.

By The Volver on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 12:36 pm:

All the laces, Thought Lace, Pure Lace, Death Lace, Chaos Lace, and Life Lace... whenever i pulled one of those in a revised booster, i felt like i was getting ripped. I would have prefered an extra lightning bolt instead.

By Elrohir (Elrohir) on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 01:17 pm:

Well, Stasis is the root of all my hatred of blue, with counterspells of all natures coming along on a nice second. But the one card I hate above all is Living Artifact. There's no rhyme or reason to it, I just despise that card. I'll trade for them (if I can't convince someone to give it to me) and rip it up immediately after it's mine. Going out of my way to destroy them...

By Henge Wolf (Wolf) on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 01:56 pm:

I agree that Back to Basics is ridiculous. Since I haven't been to tourneys in a long time, I've just never had the pleasure of playing against it.

First they take dual lands out of print, then they hose them down with . . . a blue card?!?
No one can deny that this should have been green.
Thanks wizards, give it to the one color most likely to stand on it's own without duals. Someone at wizards has a big . . . liking . . . for blue, apparently.


By Gerrard Capashen on Saturday, December 15, 2001 - 06:12 pm:


Aegis of Honor

Control Magic

And Counterpell again

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Saturday, December 15, 2001 - 07:46 pm:

"Why do you think blue got all the broken cards??? Maybe because it's ten times better than green anyways... "

Um, is it just me or is that the worst argument ever?
If green is too weak, PRINT GOOD GREEN CARDS. If blue already has all the good stuff, DON'T PRINT MORE. Gah.

By Henge Wolf (Wolf) on Saturday, December 15, 2001 - 08:24 pm:

I agree, that is the worst argument I've ever heard. Incidentally, it seems to be common among Type2 players to think that green is too good. All I see are a lot of green/something in type2, it still doesn't stand on it's own very often. To me, gold cards with green in them are not the same as pure good greenness, which is lacking. Green will never be too good, until it gets its own version of BBS! :) BSG anyone?

"This post is for fun purposes only."

By Tuna! on Saturday, December 15, 2001 - 08:50 pm:

Hate counterspells, any kind. Unless I'm playing them :)

By Tristal on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 06:22 pm:

Mana Drain. IMO, it's the single most powerful card in Magic.

By LordLamneth on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 11:11 am:

Counterspells in general, Mana Drain, Force of Will & Counterspell in particular.

Control Magic, Treachery, & Bribery all have a special place in my a$$ as well.


By Boltbait, the Master of the Hunt (Boltbait) on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 12:24 pm:


My least favorite card of all time is Rishadan Port. Every copy of that card should be burned and the ashes should be pissed upon. Thank god it rotated.


I'd have to say Back to Basics. If they had to print it at all, it should have at least been green.

If you count cards from future sets, it would be this card from torment (according to MTGnews):

Cabal Ritual - Common
Add BBB to your mana pool.
Threshold: Instead add BBBBB to your mana pool.

Why you ask? Because this sad sack, weak-kneed, lame version will be Wizards' excuse not to reprint Dark Rit. While this might shine in recursion decks, it is s*** in anything else.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 10:48 pm:

In duels, it has to be Hymn to Tourach, this card should have been restricted long ago!!


Um....it WAS restricted long ago. Not in t1, but that wasn't specified ;)

My most hated card is TOBIAS FREAKING ANDRION. Barring that, Duress.

By hellion, THE on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 06:08 am:

I find mind twist quite annoying.

By Tristal on Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 03:14 pm:

Wouldn't that Cabal Ritual be insane in those Hermit Druid decks?

By Phyrexian Raper on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 09:52 am:

The card I hate the most is Scaled Wurm (I lost a Force of Will on that card)...

A newbie wanted to play against me and he wanted to play for ante We do, I ante a Force of Will and he puts down a Vizzerdrix (@#$%&)... I played my UW-control and drew a hand with a moat, couple of lands, a mana drain and a Masticore. He starts playing:
Mox Jet, Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Random Dual, Random other Mox, Scaled Wurm.
then he started to beat me with the scaled wurm until I died... Who can believe it, a newbie with moxes, duals and black lotus...

I traded a Vizzerdrix for the Force of Will back afterwards though...

By idsif on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 12:05 pm:


I don't know why. It just always manages to piss me off.

In terms of tournament play the worst cards were the super combos:

Memory Jar

And I agree that the howling mine / chains deck is really frickin annoying.


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 02:29 pm:

lol @ palindrome

By Reper (Reper) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 06:16 pm:

COP red baaaaaaaahhh masticore is also something that im not fond or seing

By Phyrexian Raper on Friday, December 21, 2001 - 04:26 pm:

I don't like Air bladder too, I bought a box of Nemesis and thought there would be at least 4 Derms in it, instead of the derms, I got 15 Air Bladders and 0 Blastoderms in my box... I still don't understand what case that card does come in handy...

By Erik on Monday, December 24, 2001 - 05:31 pm:

Well I have to say I hate the whole Chronlicles set. It was basically a couple of over-powered cards (city of brass, ehrnam djinn etc.) lumped together with some of the crappiest cards of all time. The only thing it did was to mess up t2 (playing 4 ehrnams in any deck that had green in it isn't really creative deck-building) and ruin the collectors value of old cards. Not that Dandan and Rakalite had much value to begin with...

By Henge Wolf (Wolf) on Tuesday, December 25, 2001 - 03:13 am:

I agree totally concerning Cronicles, because it was also the reason behind the "Reserved List", which I abhor. Cronicles seemed haphazard, I'll never understand why they reprinted Ehrnam and City but nothing else good from Arabian Nights. It's like they picked the cards out of a hat or something. Then there was all that Elder Dragon nonsense, all the set really did overall was nuke the values of cards that only had value for being RARE to begin with. It hurt back then, but now there are precisely two things driving values: which decks is the card used in, and if it's good, is it black border. Rarity is, by itself, largely meaningless. Try getting anyone to even trade for a legends rare that's not Keeper tech.


By newbie on Tuesday, December 25, 2001 - 04:47 am:

Black Vise!!! Why allways my opponents drop it 1st turn against my super drawing blue :(

Also i hate Flood :)

By gary from london on Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 08:27 am:


By Puschkin, Defiant Vanguard Against The Phyrexian Invasion (Puschkin) on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 07:41 am:

Summing up so far (I counted the first card mentioned for duels):

Back to Basics :3
Balance :1
Black Vise :1
CoP:Red :1
Counterspell :1
Donate :1
Duress :1
Force of Will :1
Humility :1
Hymn to Tourach :1
Island :1
Mana Drain :1
Mindtwist :1
Morphling :4
Rancor :1
Rhystic Study :1
Rishadan Port :1
(Scaled Wurm :1)
Stasis :2
Static Orb :1
Tolarian Academy :1

general concepts/cycles
Landdestructuion :1
Flip cards :1
Laces :1
Counterspells :2
Chronicles :1

Note that blue cards outmatch all other colours + artifacts + lands 15:11 ! And that´s with Island and Academy on the non-blue side !!!

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 09:32 am:

Give another one for Back to Basics.

By paladin on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

i think blue is a rediculous color, the card i hate to see the most would have to be a either a tinker or a morphling

note: i hate blue cards in general, although i still use them because a lot of them are super broken!!!

By Montana Gamer on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

force of will.... make them pay mana if they want to counter my spells

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 06:29 pm:

Nah, Force is good for stopping combos. Misdierction gets a vote.

By Tir (Tir) on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 10:28 pm:

Bottle Gnomes ;)

By Leviathan on Wednesday, January 02, 2002 - 11:42 pm:

for multi player games these are both pretty sucky

Pestilence and Congregate

By Shadow (Shadow) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 08:57 am:

Floral Spuzzem.

By paladin on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 02:39 pm:

oh, in multiplayer games, its either rhystic study or verdant force.

By Liam (Liam) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 02:47 pm:

mark another on Tobias Andrion. The shredder is too good for him.

By BWM on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 03:58 pm:

Blue is the most annoying color...

By Puschkin, Defiant Vanguard Against The Phyrexian Invasion (Puschkin) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 05:47 pm:

Then please add your most hated card. Or should I mark "blue in general" ... Island then?

By BWM on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 04:32 pm:

I already did... wait I didn't I hate eeeuhm Urza's Rage the most because I traded it away (for waaaaay too less...) ... I don't like Shadowmage Infiltrator too, they are sooo fucking expensive for a undercosted Tyfus Magpie...

By Prodigal Whelp on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 09:44 pm:

Tangle Wire for solo
Congregate for Multi

By dude on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 06:02 pm:

barbed wire

avatar of woe(though i have a couple and love them)


power sink


By goblin on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 06:05 pm:

i hate avatar of woe the most... along with...

By Rico Jones, Elfman Extraordinaire (Rico) on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 08:53 pm:

Tangle Wire is pretty annoying. 'Though I'd have to say that Necrosavant is much cooler than it is annoying. The only thing that it doesn't cause problems for is that 2/4 angel that doesn't let you attack if it damages you. I hate my friend's U/W deck. That's the only card in his deck that can stop the Necrosavant. Of course, Maze of Ith stops it too but I usually run mad Wastelands. Counterspells make deck so boring. Not just the decks they are in either, opposing decks become boring as well. Frustrates me just thinking about it. Oh well. Discard and Land Destruction are both fairly annoying to play against as well.


By Paranoid Android on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 01:34 am:

Annoying? First turn hippy, now that's annoying.

By Rico Jones, Elfman Extraordinaire (Rico) on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 09:37 pm:

Hmmm. That is annoying. Multiple Maze of Iths make for an annoying situation too. Same with Winter and Static Orbs. First turn Black Vise tops them all though.


By Steve Z on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 10:59 am:

A straight counterspell is the most dismal thing to see in any game.

It's so sad...none of these kids have a clue as to the "art" of deckbuilding. They go on the 'net and read a decklist that wins, buy the cards, and do the same. And EVERYONE on Magic: Online plays with nothing but counters and burn. I mean, where's the strategy in building a deck with 4 Remove Soul, 4 Gainsay, 4 Syncopate, 4 Evasive Action, 4 straight Counterspells, and 2 Urza's Rage.

I HATE Counterspells. I will be so happy when 7th rotates out and there are no more straight counters EVER. It kills the game. Makes it not fun. Hell, I built a deck just like it just so i could win some games. I won all the time. And i didn't have any fun doing it.

(I don't really have a problem with the conditional counters.)

Although, I am rather proud that last night I beat a counterspell deck with my Coalition Victory deck. Yay, me.


By Curses/Foiled on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 12:21 pm:

Spiritmonger. Okay, so it's not broken, but that's not the point. It is... *inappropriate*. You just *aren't supposed* to get a 6/6 with three beneficial abilities for five; it's blasphemy! Morphling may win games by itself, but at least the only cards it's semi-*directly* better of are Homarid Warrior and Giant Crab.

My vote goes for the 'Monger. It shouldn't have been printed in the first place.

By Steve Z on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

'Monger's not broken? It's not only overpowered...it's not only undercosted...it's overpowered AND undercosted!!!

a 6/6 for 5 should have some drawback. Ok, 2 different colors make it equivalent to a 6/6 for 6. A 6/6 for 6 should not change color for 1 mana, much less REGENERATE for 1 mana!

That card is absurd. I do not recognize it. I deny it exists.

Steve Z

By Aragorn on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 03:40 pm:

Monger absurd!?!? let it get as big as you want but I'll still sit here and chump block with a regenerator or stupid goblin tokens, mongers far from broken, its good but the only time it was close to being broken is when you could cast it second turn w/ dark ritual

By Elrohir (Elrohir) on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 08:11 pm:

And I shall further hold that it is far weakened by its lack of trample. Egad, if anything ever begged for trample, it is Spiritmonger.

By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 06:11 pm:

I hate Evergy Field with the burning passion of a thousand suns. It has absolutely no purpose but as a stall card or as part of a lock. I've hated it ever since I played against a guy with my trusty sligh deck. He won the first game and lost the second game. In the third agme, he got 1 point higher on life than me (cause I had to blow up a couple creatures) and he just played this and sat there until time ran out (which was about 2 turns before he would have had to discard)

By etrigan on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 03:09 pm:

I think the card I hate the most is Balance. Yeah, I play with 'em. But I hate them. It's quite possibly the MOST broken card in the game. It's a mind twist. It' a wrath of god. It's an armageddon. It's any combination of the three...
And it's only 2 to cast.
I remember back in - what - 1995 just before 4th really hit the stands and the entire swiss team showed up to the word championship playing blue/white with 4 balance. That day was the day Magic lost its innocence. Somehow magic stopped being quite so fun when everyone realized how powerful balance was. Magic became more like math homework, where you had to have a decent understanding of probability and statistics to make a decent deck.
The next worse was just after alliances was released and some dink won a big tournament with 4 necropotence in a black weenie deck. SWEET LORD! Magic went to pot right then. Games lasted all of four or five turns, and if you weren't playing a cookie-cutter deck (white weenie, black weenie or turbo-stasis) you were losing. Creature destruction became the MOST important thing in a deck, and if you didn't have 8 creature removal spells or more, you were sunk. the average lifespan of a creature was just over a turn.
So - balance or Necropotence - both of them ruined the game for me.

By grimJester on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 09:33 am:

Chaos Orb.

My very first tournament, the Finnish championships (1994? The same day Dark was released). Single elimination format. No one has any idea on how to build a good deck. I still think I had the best deck in the tourney. Lost against the eventual winner when he knocked out five of my lands with Chaos Orb, leaving me one mana short of the game-winning Fireball in game three. I had never seen a Chaos Orb before, and like a complete idiot, I spread out my other cards after the first game, but stacked my lands in neat piles...

Nationals where half the field have 100-200 card decks with no sideboard, and I still couldn't win.

Damn you, Chaos Orb. Damn you for destroying my MtG pro career before it even started. *sigh*

Every cloud has a silver lining, though. I also saw my first Mox, a Jet in a U/r deck, and went "But it's a SWAMP?!?". Those were the days.

By Thoughtlace (Tlace) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 12:38 pm:

First, I can't believe no one is talking about Necro. Necro is terribly, horribly broken. Hymn to Tourach is a pain in the arse, but would never be broken w/o Necro.

Second: Fireblast. It's broken, and just not much fun for those going against it.

Third: Static Orb and Winter Orb. Prison decks require significant skill to play, but going against them is as much fun as watching golf on a six inch black and white TV.

Fourth: Wasteland and Rishadan Port. A lot of otherwise good matches get turned into formalities by these two beauties.

Land tax: not only is it broken, it slows the game way down. Tax, shuffle, tax, shuffle, etc.

By Curses/Foiled on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 03:30 pm:

Fireblast broken? Oh COME ON.

By Rico Jones, Elfman Extraordinaire (Rico) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 04:38 pm:

I love wasteland and port. Gotta play with them or against them. Heck, with all the multicolor lands out there now you gotta penalize 3-5 color decks somehow.


By Henge Wolf (Wolf) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

Disclaimer: The following is a "good-natured" rant, if such a thing is possible.

I can't believe you people who are trashing Spiritmonger! Yeah, it's real good, but hardly broken. I hope they make more cards at that level of power, it's nice to see a card that's actually better than many older cards, rather than worse. Not to mention, it's a good FAT BEATDOWN CREATURE. How can you not like that? It makes up for all the "Timmy, Power Gamer"-inspired piece of crap fat creatures they've made in the past (and continue to make, like that crappy new angel for 6W). Out of the three abilities, the pluses are kind of redundant, since it doesn't trample. Every time it's blocked, it grows bigger, but . . . you're still not dealing damage. The color changing is almost useless last time I checked. It regenerates, but who would use it if it didn't? Regeneration is such an iffy ability, I don't think it should ever cost more than one mana. If it was a vanilla 6/6 for 3GB, I doubt it would see much use. This is the kind of creature they need to make if we ever want to see a creature strategy that's not tokens, reanimation, morphling, or weenies. I can't hate a big creature that's actually competitive, I just can't. Except Morphling . . . but I've got an edict for him, and believe me, Spiritmonger is no Morphling. The 'Monger is far more appropriate, in colors that can actually use the added strength.

Curses, I'm surprised! You hate the Spiritmonger, but you don't think Fireblast is even slightly unreasonable? :)

Oh, what fun! My opponent has me down to 8 on the 4th turn and he's tapped out! But wait, I'm still dead because he just sacked his 4 mountains to deal 8 damage!

I hate sligh, just because it's so . . . inelegant. It might be the stupidest deck that's ever been built; it may require some skill to play, but it is the quintessential "math deck" that someone above mentioned. Completely non-reactive except to deal damage, it is the game of magic taken to it's most atavistic extreme.

Maybe that was a little heavy handed . . .
Nahh, what am I talking about. It's Sligh.
Ha, sligh. I've got a Spike Feeder and a Spiritmonger I'd like you to meet. :)


BTW, The Monger/Deed deck and Secret Force are the only extended decks that interest me much. Hands off Spiritmonger!

By Rychman on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 05:14 pm:

I love playing black.

So I hate : Story Circle!
Come on, some guys dancing around, preventing the damage of all Juzams, Negators and the like...!

2. Place: Illusions / Donate!
Those damn combo decks killed Necro!

Argh, I loved my mono-black Necro deck...

By the rat on Saturday, January 26, 2002 - 12:02 am:


ban them all damnit!!!

By NST2SHN on Saturday, January 26, 2002 - 10:14 am:

MORPHLING, ban the freaking thing, its a flying 5 beating that can't be killed, and generates insane card advantage. Cards that draw you more cards get restricted. Morphling kills opponets and by not requiring the use of cards to protect itself and to pump/kill/survive it generates card advantage. BAN MORPHLING!!!

By ShadowBlade on Sunday, January 27, 2002 - 09:14 am:

Back to Basics : it should have not been printed. Primal Order and Blood Moon are enough.

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Sunday, January 27, 2002 - 02:34 pm:

Whatever I said before, I'm changing to The Abyss. More than any other card, even back to basics, it stifles deck design horribly in type one. Keeper players call it a silver bullet but its a silver bullet versus nearly every deck and nearly every CONCIEVABLE deck. Blecch. And it's not something you can play around like Mana Drain/Fore of Will.

By Henge Wolf (Wolf) on Monday, January 28, 2002 - 04:38 pm:

I agree about the Abyss. Magic is and should be a game about creatures, and once The Abyss hits, you MIGHT get one more attack in (if you've got two creatures out) before it becomes pointless. They didn't think it through very well at all, you cast a creature, but then it's gone next turn before you can ever attack. Morphling is immune, which just compounds the problem.

Abyss isn't a silver bullet, it's just a regular hollow point. It doesn't matter who you are, unless you've got 'body armor' (ie, a non-creature strategy), you're going to die.


By amos on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 02:36 pm:

in general, i think morphling is waaaaay to broken and should be restricted. I know it's just a creature but it would make blue go back to running like rainbow efreet or something and make us not have to keep using diabolic edict (it's BAD!)
Also, back to basics and blood moon annoy the heck out of me.
In type 2, i hate to see call of the herd. Now that is a good green card.

By havraen1 on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 06:51 pm:

Definitely Stasis and counterspells of any kind.

Outside of the tourney scene, we all play magic because we want to actually PLAY...magic is meant to be fun for all players, and that makes control/counters bogus. Who actually enjoys sitting and watching rather than playing? zzzzzzzzzzzz

Winter/Static Orb, Nether Void, Tanglewire, Armgeddon, and other such mana-hosing cards also at the top of my list.

As for the Abyss discussion above, at least this is a card on the board rather than a bunch of "draw-go" BS. It can be dealt with in a number of ways if one's deck has sufficient versatility.

By Rico Jones, Elfman Extraordinaire (Rico) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 08:24 pm:

While I generally don't really like playing against counters because they ruin my attempts at playing wacky style decks I don't mind playing against counters when my deck has a chance and I want to excercise my mind. Playing against counters is like playing chess: good for certain moods but boring most of the time. :)


By CrazyCarlWinter AKA IH8Obliterate on Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 11:31 pm:

Counters are just fine. Normally horrible people just complain about them when they can't figure out how to get past them. It really isn't that difficult if you work at it. Counters keep the game balanced in that you can't just go nutty with a combo or something and win w/o any disruption. But my most annoying card list starts off with

O B L I T E R A T E >_<
I hate this card with a burning passion.
It has ruined me sooooooo many times =) Ah well

Mana Drain is also kind of a downer(Though I LOVE playing it =) Expensive spell gets countered, my opponent can now Geyser/Stroke for that many cards, or Mind Twist my hand for next to nothing hhehe i don't do that....

But, Obliterate is the MOST annoying card of all time. There's just no way to stop it, you can Ertai's Meddling it, but that only delays the awful, impending doom that is sure to come as soon as those delay counters are gone...

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 03:25 am:

That gives you turns in which you can find MORE Meddlings! Woohoo!

By Curses/Foiled on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 04:28 am:

HengeWolf: Read my original post. I'm not anti-'Monger because the card's too good - it *isn't* (hell, people hardly bother to use it - even in Type Screw). I'm against the 'Monger because it breaks some of the unwritten rules of what cards should cost. My Serra/Shivan -calibrated fat-for-mana meter says that five mana buys you a 5/5 non-Legend at most - definitely not a 6/6 with THREE beneficial abilities! I'm not talking about balance issues here - this is far more abstract.
Let's just put it this way: If the 'Monger cost, say, 2BBGG and was a Legend, it could have trample/evasion for all I care.

Fireblast, OTOH, is quite a bit more painful to be in the receiving end of, but I can take it, as I don't get the feeling that the card itself is *cheating* in some arbitrary way. What in the world would FB be strictly better of? Kamahl's Sledge? ;)

By Curses/Foiled on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 05:06 am:

...And before anyone gets a chance to misinterpret that, I basically meant that FB is off the hook simply because there's precious little you can reasonably compare it to. Plus, I maintain that it is NOT broken - just fits great in one specific archetype.

By Henge Wolf (Wolf) on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 11:53 am:

I understand your argument about the monger, I guess I just don't agree. The fact that it's not too good should speak for itself. IMO it's amazing that WotC didn't make it worse just to fulfill some 'unwritten rule', that is so like them. At least they brought back the Serra/Shivan/etc, I can remember when they thought THOSE were too good. I think I quit for a year or two around that time. My attitude is, they have to start making big creatures follow a different mana curve if they ever want them to be competitive. I hate the fact that stupid little goblins, orcs and hounds are "good creatures" in tier1 decks, but then it'll blow people's minds to see a "good" deck running something like a Dragon. IMO, Spiritmonger is a step in the right direction, although I somehow doubt we'll see it's like again for a very long time. I'm just amazed they made it at all.

To interject another point, I also really like the fact that Monger doesn't have any drawbacks, because I see them making so many cards with drawbacks, only to see the deckbuilders either a) only include them in decks in which the drawback in negligible or b) combo with another card to turn the drawback into an advantage. The other option, 'c)' if you will: the card's drawback is so severe and/or unbreakable that it isn't played at all.

I like it when cards break the game. I don't mean in a donate/combo "broken" way (I hate that stuff), I mean I like it when cards are just weird. Spiritmonger is cool because it's so unlike any other creature in the game in terms of cost. It is a special case in a class by itself, and it throws card parity out the window without being all that gamebreaking. If it'd been a legend with higher CC, I would've looked at it, said "hmm . . . another one" and probably never even bothered to play with it. That's just the way I see it, but as I've mentioned numerous times, I'm mainly looking to play with large creatures that are actually cost-efficient. WotC doesn't realize that at least 50% of it's cards could have a reduced CC and still be fair, and that really pains me. Spiritmonger almost looks like the kind of card that R&D just let slip, and the fact that it's not really defining any formats should be a wakeup call. It's okay to make big creatures that follow a different cost- pattern than the smaller ones. I guess I'm of the mindset that if they'll let Wrath of God stand at 4 mana, for the same amount I'd better get a creature that's going to wreak some havoc.

Anyone remember when they said that serra angel should cost 7 because it had two abilities and no drawback? Anyone remember how many years it's been since Serra Angel was even a good card? Last I checked, no one serious was even using Shivan Dragon in top-class decks circa 1996. I've always thought that if tournament play gave me the option to play with creatures that didn't have to be 2/1 for 1 to be competitive, I'd probably be more interested in competing.

As far as Fireblast, yes there is nothing to compare it to. I kind of see it as being "broken" in the same way as the donate combo, although not nearly as bad. There's nothing to compare donate/illusions to either, but that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it. Fireblast is ridiculous (to me) because it basically allows that damned sligh deck an extra turn, and a potent extra turn at that. They get to play as many spells as they want up to and including the 4th turn, and then (when the draw is right) they can burn you for an extra EIGHT when they've already tapped out. BTW, this is so much more annoying if you don't play blue. FB is really only good in a sligh deck, but then donate/illusions is really only good in that one deck as well. In a way, I guess I'd rather see cards that are moderately strong in any deck, than cards that are either useless or too good, depending on which deck runs them.

Then again, to me the Sligh concept is broken in general, in that esoteric sense of "what's right in magic." It uses crap creatures and crap spells (although I won't call incinerate 'crap'), and it just kills an opponent in an almost completely non-reactive way. The deck contains precisely two kinds of cards, it basically wishes it was 21 Jackal Pups, 21 Lightning Bolts, 18 mountains. For the record, I don't like most Stompy builds either, for the same reason. So maybe it's not Fireblast that I dislike so much as sligh in general. My two favorite extended decks (Monger/'Rock' and Secret Force) tear it apart, but I still don't like it. There's just something dirty about the way it plays.

After 7 years in the game, I guess I'm still naive enough to want big creature builds to win.
If I could make Spiritmonger work in Type2 (in a G/B deck without red, no way am I going to try to trade for Urza's Rage), I'd even think about building a Screw deck for the first time in . . . well, ever. At least I'd think about it until I realize it needs 16 more rares that cost $12 each but are no good in any other format. :)

Just some random thoughts, all in good fun.


By Curses/Foiled on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 01:57 pm:

Hmm. Point taken. I wouldn't mind a competitive, effective fat-creatures-with-enchantments-on-them build existing myself (mostly because the very thought is something *bIzArRe*) - I just don't want it to happen via a couple of sets flooded with 4cc untargetable, uncounterable Serra-clones. I'd much rather have a reason to use Panther Warriors than a creature that's Panther Warriors except it costs 2 colorless less.

By Henge Wolf (Wolf) on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 11:18 pm:

Yes, I see what you mean. I'm not suggesting that they make the bigger creatures so good that they are strictly better than smaller ones (although that would definitely make for a weirder game). 4-5 CC should basically get you something that has previously been reserved for costs like 6 and 7, because I just can't envision a format in which a 7 CC is ever playable; to me it'd mean no one was doing anything at all in the first few turns. Well, either that, or some wicked mana acceleration was present. :)

They also shouldn't be afraid to hand out trivial abilities, basically for "free". The monger is a good example, just how often is that color-change ability useful? The pluses are basically there to lure the "I win more" power-gamer people . . . although I guess if you can block one guy right after summoning, that'll mean it only takes three swings to kill your opponent. Then again, he might've been smarter to save his guy to block, since it's not really evasion to take a +1 +1 every time you fail to deal damage. Not exactly counterproductive, but not exactly gamebreaking. In most cases what you're actually looking at is a 6/6 regenerates for 3BG. The other abilities are flavor, and I think you'll agree that flavor is always good. Have you read the original monger description? The writing is, well, juvenile, but it's pretty cool that they took a big paragraph of creature description and actually turned the entire concept into a card. I wish they'd do more stuff like that. What I think makes that card so weird is that it was designed from a fresh perspective, with nothing more in mind than to create an interesting creature, rather than some R&D guy saying 'let's make a new juzam that'll probably combo with card x and y . . . possibly forming deck archetype z. We'll tweak this card 63 times right before printing, and then of course we'll make the card more broken when we meant to make it less. Well, either that or we will "fix" it into complete mediocrity.'

I guess Fires was kind of a fat-enchantment kind of deck. I didn't really like to play it though. Although I didn't mind abusing Blastoderm, that Saproling Burst was just downright wrong. Cheap, to use another term.


By Curses/Foiled on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 06:28 pm:

Quote: "Well, either that, or some wicked mana acceleration was present."

Y'know, I've been thinking about that. Now, I know people hate fantasy cards - hell, I hate them myself whenever they're not by me - but here's something sw33t straight from Fantasy Fantasy League:

Hunting Trail (cycle of five)
T: Add 1GG to your mana pool. Use this mana only to play a *single* creature spell.

...And suddenly every P.O.S fattie in the world looks quite a bit more appealing. Just imagine the possibilities:

1P: "Mountain, Pup, go."
2P: "Mountaintop Hideout. Go."
1P: "Mountain, attack for 2, another Pup, Cadets, go."
2P: "Grisly Grotto, Shivan, go."
1P: "Err... Double-bolt your Shivan. Attack for 6. Go."
2P: "Another Grotto. Spirit of the Night. Go."
1P: "Uh... I'm attacking with everything. Fireblast your SotN after the Pup you blocked dealt damage. You're at 8, I'm 14."
2P: "Another Hideout. I'm playing Hypnox raw, taking one point of mana burn. Kiss your hand goodbye, weenie boy."

Hey 'Wolf, help me win 5 Invitationals and I've got your fat solution right here. :)

By Racer X on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 12:35 pm:

Tradewind Rider and Urza's Rage

By Puschkin, Defiant Vanguard Against The Phyrexian Invasion (Puschkin) on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 09:53 am:

Abyss, the:1
Back to Basics :5
Balance :2
Black Vise :1
Chaos Orb:1
CoP:Red :1
Counterspell :1
Donate :1
Duress :1
Energy Field:1
Force of Will :2
Humility :1
Hymn to Tourach :1
Island :1
Mana Drain :1
Mindtwist :1
Morphling :6
Necropotence: 1
Rancor :1
Rhystic Study :1
Rishadan Port :1
(Scaled Wurm :1)
Spiritmonger: 2
Stasis :3
Static Orb :1
Story Circle: 1
Tangle Wire: 2
Tinker: 1
Tolarian Academy :1
Tradewind Rider: 1
Urza´s Rage: 1

General concepts/cycles
Landdestructuion :1
Flip cards :1
Laces :1
Counterspells :4
Chronicles :1

Blue is still outnumbering all other colours TOGETHER.

Hengewolf, dear Hengewolf, Wielder of the Fat, Selfproclaimed Owner of the Rumor Mill and Offical Nemesis of the Reserved List,
Generally I would go with Curses/Foiled´s opinion. It´s exact what I want to address with my Balanced Environment Project. Spiritmonger puts every "normal" fat of that cc in existance to shame and, colour requirements aside, makes many creatures obsolete.
On the other hand you are right in that even this clearly undercosted Spiritmonger does not see much play.
The problem isn´t the creatures or it´s general cc scheme. It´s that R&D, "Restrict&Dumbify" how they are called now, still underestimates alice effects. All the years of card creation and the whole history of B/R lists didn´t tell them a lesson.
Making creatures just better for the same mana would mean "fixing" a problem while creating another. Much like they did with green years ago. They should istead think twice whenever they create an alice effect.
But, they are on the right way. If you haven´t noticed, Type Screw (I claim to be the creator of that term, using it over a year now) has slowed tremendously down. Sure, you have got a lot of control now. But there are fat creatures around that see play: Mahamoti for example or some of the Dragon Legends. Make the new non-creature-related cards just a nuance weaker and you are fine. This time they just got overboard with bounce and cousins.

BTW, Wrath of God is a perfectly balanced and fair card. First off, it´s symmetrical. Secondly, it´s white! White can´t really win other than with (lots of small)creatures. Wrath definately hurts white a lot.
You dislike Wrath when played in creatureless control. Well, again, problem are the alice effects, not the cards they recurse or tutor for. Besides of that, the first Wrath may be strong but from that on a creatureless deck is threatened by every single creature the opponent plays. That means you have to pay 2WW to destroy the next 2/2.

Oh, and that colourchanging of Monger isn´t that bad: Stops Terror-like effects (though not Terminate), gets around Washout and other colour-hosers and is great against protection:from strategies. My Mother of Runes looked bad against Mongers and Kavu Chamelions.

By Curses/Foiled mimicks Nordom on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 03:02 pm:

Attention, Puschkin: Requesting definition of term "alice effect(s)".

By BWM on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 03:14 pm:

Spiritmonger already gets around Terror since it's black...

By Puschkin, Defiant Vanguard Against The Phyrexian Invasion (Puschkin) on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 03:24 pm:

Alice effects are effects that alter the game mechanics, the game itself or how it is played.
I Lightning Bolt does kill a creature or hurt a player (a wizard, remember?): No alice effect. A Stasis skipd an entire phase and thus it is an alice effect in it´s purest form. Tutors are alice effects cause you are searching for cards, that is you are altering what you will draw. Looking at opponents hands, drawing extra cards, playing more than one land per turn, attacking twice and taking extra turns are all alice effects.

Alice as in "Alice in Wonderland".

By Superman on dope (Dope) on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 03:53 pm:

Back to Basics, Back to Basics, and Back to F***ing Basics. I should get three votes for this. :)

I used and abused this card last year so much that I feel sorry the card was ever printed.

By Nathan C on Tuesday, February 12, 2002 - 06:26 pm:

Well, i'm probably going to get hated for this..but i love Stasis. You want a cheap a** card to hate? HOW ABOUT CURSED SCROLL? I am a control player and I have died to cursed scroll at least fourty times. Stasis was one of my better decks, and the last tourney I was eliminated in the semis when my opponet went Plains, Mox, Cursed Scroll, Cursed Scroll for an opening turn. (I only own 1 Force of Will, and I didn't have it.) My SINGLE disenchant in hand doesn't do any good against TWO of those pieces of crap, do they?

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