I just dicovered that 6th and 7th ed contain no single card with upkeep. Can that be true? Please don´t tell me that upkeep is too complicate for "advanced" players! I mean, they just skipped a whole phase! Sigh.
What garbage! I'm also a critic of their getting rid of trample . . . it's so much better than that mindless Thorn Elemental-style ability. IMO it's much more fun (and more fair) to kill their creatures, with some extra player damage, rather than just running straight through their side like it doesn't exist. Where's the strategy in that?
They don't give new players enough credit, I remember when I was new, it was harder to learn stuff like the order of the phases and 'last in first out' than it was to understand what the upkeep phase did, or even how trample worked. I think the point they are missing is that if new players like the game, they will just play it wrong until someone tells them otherwise. In that way, there's no real sense in dumbing it down. I'll admit that it probably took me several months of playing to actually get a solid feel for the rules, and even longer to start thinking about solid strategies. I actually remember how even after playing for a year, I'd still just cast my best cards right into counterspells; and then I'd get mad when they were countered. Later, I learned to bait the blue mage, or destroy his land, or at the very least wait until he's tapped out. I really think that if I'd come fresh into the game in it's current state, I'd probably find it boring. There is something about 7th that is just . . . dull. Even though it's better than 6th, and maybe even 5th, it's just . . . weak. Kind of like Portal with artifacts and enchantments.
On a similar note, someone recently forwarded me a letter from Wizards outlining their 'official' stance on dual lands. Their reasoning:
'They are better than a basic land with no drawback.' Try telling that to a guy who's hit with Back to Basics, etc, etc, etc. Then try telling me, and a million other oldschoolers, where they get off with such an arbitrary decision? I'm insulted . . . You know, I think we can handle the "overpowering" nature of duals. I think that's been proven sufficiently.
'By counting as additional land types, they are too confusing.' When I read that, I wanted to just throw all my cards in a blender. Seriously. If it's too confusing and too good to make a land that counts as basic land types in addition to it's own type, then this is obviously a game for 14 year olds, and not for me.
In short, here's hoping they wise up one of these days. Until then, I'm going to be playing less and less. I might just start another thread about this whole thing with the dual lands. They are so out of touch!
Could you post that email you got about the duals? I was having a conversation about those last night; I'd love to see what lame-ass excuses WotC comes up with...
oh yeah... and reprint Benalish Hero and Timber Wolves!
That´s right, I miss banding. What was wrong with it? And is there any reason to not make banding a block-ability or something? Printing some banding-dudes isn´t too complicated for "expert-level", no?
Here it is about the dual lands:
>Basically, those were removed from production
>due to their high power level in relation to >basic lands and the
>confusion with how they were to be handled in >play. They are non-basic lands yet they count >as the two lands that correspond to the colors >they produce. They are too powerful with no >drawback whatsoever.
>Wizards of the Coast - Game Support
>Game Support E-Mail: v***t@r***z.com
>Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496
>Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 7 PM PST
>Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500
>Online Store Phone: 1-800-250-7589
>Online Store Email: d***u@r***w.com
>Please quote this e-mail in any reply.
Thanks to Andy T. for emailing me that.
That's the same stupid thing they've said since they got rid of them. All the players know that by their virtue of being non-basic, they are vulnerable. Do you really think that Painlands would even be viable in extended, with all it's non-basic hosing you're hurting yourself, and getting metagamed! As for the land types being confusing, I've never met a single newbie who was confused by that. A perfect example of a 'corporate excuse', as long as it appears to make sense on the surface, it doesn't even matter how off-base it is.
Well, I must be off before I write 10 more pages. Oh yeah, and bring back banding! It hurts my head to try to think of the mindset required to get confused about dual lands and banding. They think we're morons. I'm insulted. Many of my non-magic friends think I'M a moron for even bothering with this messed up game.
I think the real reason is that they wouldn't be able to think of anything else to do for non-basic lands in future sets... If duals were still in the basic set, they wouldn't have been able to print any of the other 3847298347234 lame ass dual land wannabe cards. They ran out of imagination, so they had to get rid of them.
and yes, give us back banding... and Rampage while they're at it! I miss the old mechanics... just seeing one or two creatures with some of the old-school abilities would be great.
but seriously how good were those abilities? for nostalgia i can agree, but for serious play i'd rather have stuff like flanking and shadow back. it's a shame those block abilities never get the time to get established...it would be really nice to see some new buyback cards for example.
on a side note i finished my proxied legends set today (with professional printers and stuff), and I had a good time going over all the multicolored legends again. they are SO bad i mean who pays a ton of mana (requiring different colors) to bring out some ugly 5/5 vanilla dude? i mean they are supposed to be legends for gods sake...if the casting costs would have been cut in half we would be talking ;)
rasputin for 3 mana...mmmm
Rampage and banding? Depends on how large the creature is and - of course - it´s cc. Think of all those creatures that are a bit too weak, by about half a mana. Add rampage or banding and it´s a nice creature.
Not all of the Legends-legends are bad. Sol´Kanar and Gwendolyn are quite powerful and reasonably priced.
Tetsuo, Ragnar, Angus and Sunastian Falconer are good in multi/casual.
The real reason they're dumbing everything down is that they're gearing Magic towards 9-year-olds.
With the advent of Pokemon, they decided Magic needed to be graded so people could "graduate" from Pokemon to magic. This is also why artifacts are now colorless enchantments. This is why they want to avoid confusing anybody.
That and liberals are running everything nowadays, and liberals think everything can be simplified with more words.
When you wonder why Magic is going to pot, blame Pokemon and left-wingers.
Disclaimer: This post is not meant to insult any actual liberals out there, but the comic image conservatives have of liberals.
Pushkin...well that's kind of what i mean. The casting costs of the legends are just so totally inconsequent. On one hand you have guys like Dakkon and Rasputin that have powerful abilities that match their casting costs, and then next to them you see something like Torsten von Ursus (5/5 vanilla for 3WGG) or Gosta Dirk (4/4 first strike removes islandwalk, for 3WWUU). If it would have been a standalone like they intended the Legends would have been cool to use, but compared to creatures outside of the expansion they really suck. Cutting the cost in half would be too drastic, but imagine if they would have been in the Arabian Nights range...
And General Talon...I'd rather say that the process of dumbing down/removing alternative stuff is a hall-mark of conservatism if anything. If WotC would take a "liberal" approach it would mean encouraging more diverse playing techniques instead of the "portal"-isation that is called type2, at least by the classic definition of the word "liberal". Now let's keep the politics out of thread, shall we?
Wow. I always thought that people said that 12/13 year olds were stupid. I figured I'd stop being the butt of jokes when I turned 14.
Guess I was wrong, Henge Wolf .
I can't believe they actually said that. If it had merely been: "They are too powerful in Type 2 given the current environment...," it would almost make sense, but to say they have no drawback...
How many non-basic land hosers are there in T2, anyway. Don't count Tsavoc's Web; it only affects non-many abilities
Okay, okay, we all know that all this beginners, advanced BS stuff is just a gimmick to rip some dough off the kiddies.
Erik, check out "The Balanced Environment Project" in the Type I Mill. I am reediting all spoiler lists and the legends are quite playable now. In fact, these original Legends partly inspired me to run this project !
About dumbing down - "destroyed without the possability to regenerate" instead of "bury", anyone? (On the other hand they created "Haste", or does this come from Portal?).
The more I think of it: Is there any card in 6th or 7th that removes card from the game? That uses sacrifices? I mean, the meaning of the basic set is mostly to act like a base for Type Screw. I´d expected a graveyard-removing artifact in a basic set for so long cause it would make sense. They should have reprinted useful but not overpowered cards like Quicksand, Dissipate or Phyrexian Furnace. But they don´t do it because of this dumbing-down factor? That´s really dumb! And, isn´t a whole basic set - over 300 cards - that is also meant to be for starters, isn´t such a BASIC set incomplete with colours like black without dangerous upkeep costs? Green without tramplers? Bah.
R&D...Restrict & Dumbify
I tell you...it's all about selling boosters...Magic was fun when WoTC wasn't run by big Corp. minded yuppies (my assumption, of course). When the good Dr. Garfield and his couple of friends created the game...they were simply trying to make a fun game. Now, they are using the same strategic logical thought processes to a different goal; selling product.
However, I do have a few thoughts...
If their marketing research (ALL corp. THRIVE on it)indicated the best money maker was to reprint...maybe they would.
Or, if there research stated that preteens (their current target market) won't get into the game unless WoTC followed a reprint type of option....maybe they would.
The key is to find out how to manipulate their marketing research to suggest meeting their corp. goals by way of OUR desires (reprint of misc. cards).
Andy T.---reprint duals---
P.S. They live and die by the dollar...it will guide and direct thier decisions...that's what we all love about capitalism, isn't it?
Please don´t hijack this thread. As you should know I am against reprints.
On the other hand "Restrict and Dumbify" was quite funny
Puschkin, what do you think about reprinting dual lands? Please don't tell me you'd be against that, as I think an argument for a dual land reprint is as watertight as they come.
What's this 'balanced environment project', it sounds interesting. Maybe I'll check it out later.
I wholeheartedly agree about 7th, it ticked me off that they wouldn't put in Child of Gaea, which was clearly made as a better replacement for Force of Nature, just because it happens to have Trample. I think what I hate about the game more than anything else, is the arbitrary way in which they decide what gets printed and what doesn't.
Child of Gaea is a perfect example. It's a new Force of Nature, it would've been a perfect card in a basic set. Oops, it has trample, so it can't be included NO MATTER WHAT. Oops, now that it's not included, it can't EVER be included due to the reserved list. Is Child of Gaea ever going to be worth more than $3, regardless of whether it's ever reprinted? Clearly not. I am against their reprint and basic set policies period. My attitude toward type1 is only a very small part of that. In all honesty I'd never (or at least very rarely ever ) use a mox again if they'd just bring back real dual lands.
"Restrict & Dumbify" indeed.
Basically I am against reprinting duals for the same reason as all other cards - but I must admit that dual lands are a special case. Maybe it would be okay. But if Wizards starts reprinting it on demand, one thing leads to another.
Yeah, check it out, I wondered why you didn´t looked in yet, anyway.
Oh c'mon, they could totally reprint duals without even leaving the option for anything else. They can do whatever they want really, and the fact that duals are such a special case, particularly relating to extended, argues that they just don't even categorize with the rest of the Type1 cards.
You aren't actually in favor of the reserved list are you? It hurts way more than it helps, perhaps it keeps 20 overpowered cards from coming back, but then it ruins the chances of anyone ever playing with several hundred that are just fine. Of course I'm not saying they should just reprint everything that's OOP, I just think it's stupid that they can't include certain cards in newer sets, and it's a decision that's already set in stone before things like game balance are even considered.
I started looking at the spoiler you sent me, I like some of what you did, but I think you should beef up more of the creature enchantments. For example, Aspect of Wolf is just weak.
I've not been spending nearly as much time here as I used to. School is back in, for one. Added to that load is the fact that I'm actually trying to expand my social life, which has been pretty stunted for awhile now. To put it another way, I'm trying to get a girl I know to go out with me. And you know, I'd sometimes rather deal with 100 savage anti-reprint zealots than the stress of not always knowing whether my conversation skills lean more toward 'cool' or 'creepy'. Then again, no way is magic better than . . . well, you know.
As if that wasn't enough, I also recently signed up for an everquest account. That should speak for itself.
The funniest part is that despite my constantly telling myself I haven't got time for this, I almost always still manage to post something once a day. What can I say, it's a habit. I should be playing everquest right now, but instead I'm still writing about magic. Priorities are funny like that.
Ahhh, but MTG can be sold to your buddies when your done with it...try that with your girlfiend...I got slapped.
Andy T.--reprint duals--
Two more words: your mom.
Dos palabras más:
Dude, you could at least temper that comment with a smiley face.
HengeWolf, personally I have no problems with the reserved list. The cards on it are either too powerful in which case they belong to the reserved list (my view, we discussed this) or they are ... still easy to get. Come on, Child of Gaea? Basically, cards from the reserved list, that is, cards that are NOT Type II, are easy to get, BECAUSE everybody plays Type II and limited. There are exceptions of course but still.
It gets back to opponents. Since everyone's playing Type2 and limited, that means I won't ever see a Child of Gaea on my opponents side, and 3/4ths of the people I play with will complain when I use it. There's a reason you can buy it for $1, no one uses it and (basically) there's an unspoken "Type2 rule" that no one's ALLOWED to use it. I don't have a personally groomed-to-my-taste playgroup in which I can make my own sets and formats, and in all liklihood the odds are more in favor of me just quitting (again), than that ever happening. So when I waltz down to the store and play against someone's Type2 deck, they sneer when I win "Your deck's not legal", and they sneer when I lost "I beat your illegal deck." Then I serve them a serious beating with Dragon-Troll, but it somehow feels empty. I can't even get anyone to play anything other than draft anymore, and I refuse to spend $12 to draft cards I don't want against guys who've been doing it 3 times a week since the format came out.
I still hate the reserved list, because it dictates what cards can be reprinted arbitrarily, and therefore directs the sheep that are most magic players to NOT EVER play with (or against) so many cool cards. I can buy CE dual lands for $8, and that means I own them in Black Border. That's great for me, but who else will have them? If I really want to, I can go to a friend's house and run off my 'fixed' Pine Barrens from the CCGMaker, but again . . . who's going to play against me without a sneering "your deck's not legal". I have the cards I want, that's not even an issue. I did have to BUY most of them though, because no one has old stuff to trade anymore. It's the fact that when something goes out of Type2, it is shunned by 95% of the magic community. When they put a cap on 95% of the cards that are taken OOP (and they only cap the rares, yet another arbitrary decision), they are basically telling me that I can't ever hope to see most of those cards again.
I used Child of Gaea as an example because it's basically a dead card. In a few more years people won't even know what it is. I'll NEVER see a foil version, or a version with alternate art. NEVER, NO MATTER WHAT. Insert your favorite card on the reserved list into this statement (not that Child is my favorite or anything).
So basically, although I own all the power cards I really want to own, and most of the 'non-power' old cards I really want to own, that doesn't help me one bit when I can't get a decent game with any of it. I'm building an extended Spiritmonger deck just so I can play more than 1 game before random tourney guy decides I'm not worth the time since he'll never see my deck at the tournament anyway.
Right now, I'm basically through with magic. I still like it (I guess), I'm still building my monger deck, and I still waste copious amounts of time writing about it. But, I really don't play it anymore. I haven't played a game in at least 2-3 weeks. The way I see it, they aren't printing the kinds of cards I want to see, I mean I literally am about to quit because I don't want to play a game in which a card like a dual land is considered too good. I can't support a company that makes those kind of decisions. They have constantly loused up this game for years, they've warped newer players to fit the 'new' magic, and you know what, I'm an outsider. I don't want to waste money on 'draft'. I don't want to spend $200 on Type2 just so I can't trade half those cards away next year. It's better to buy original duals than Type2 rares because their value will be more stable, but to me it's just stupid in principal to have a popular series of cards that define a format yet ARE NOT IN PRINT. I want to play extended, but for longer than that one week when they have the PTQ. I want to play Type1, but I'd also like to play it casually, and no one does that EVER. Casual play has basically been reduced to playing with the 12 year olds who don't even know what they're doing. How many good friends of mine still play? Zero. I don't know how many more times Wizards, and Magic in general, needs to kick me in the testicles before I just quit . . . but right now I'm feeling mighty nauseous. I spend a lot more energy on this game trying to make it something more enjoyable, but I seriously question whether it's even worth it.
This is not a personal attack on anyone, I'm just . . . reassessing why I even bother with the game. All these discussions I've been involved in really are colored by how magic is in my area. I swear, if I wasn't 51% collector I wouldn't bother. If I didn't think the cards looked good, that is I really like the (older) art and graphic design, I'd have no use for this game at all. It's cool because of it's presentation, and even that isn't too cool anymore. I don't get wrapped up in the rules, I get wrapped up in the art and the concepts. I like moxes because I like the idea of mana-gems. I don't like diamonds because they're not good; I've tried using them stylistically but they don't help me win at all. Not only do cards like diamonds NOT help me win, they are usually a wasted slot period, and the army of netdeckers are more than willing to exploit anything suboptimal you might bring to the table. I wouldn't own a Lotus if I didn't like the coloration of the artwork. I like dual lands because they have better names and they count as basic land types. They are better than painlands, but I like them at least 60% based on style, and 40% based on power. Magic has always been more than the sum of it's parts for me, but the more I think about it, the more I do not see myself being involved in this game at all in 5 years.
And BTW, if you read this website, you're probably not the magic "sheep" I was talking about. We're mostly progressives here, aren't we?
Well, probably you should move! It is disgusting how many people out there refuse to play anything but Type Screw and Draft but I know no single place where it is so bad like in your area! It is hard to find someone to play Type I, even for casual, that´s right. But it´s no problem to play extended games, pro tour or not. And there are many players who just don´t care about formats.
Maybe your local card shop is the wrong place to look for players. card shops tend to be Type II and limited-infested, nothing unusual cause the owner makes money out of it. Try to find new players at larger tournamnets, on conventions, via online databases.
BTW, my playgroup isn´t sculped to my taste yet. I try hard but every new expansion screws my attempts! Last month I had to endure several Haunting Echoes decks and next month I have to handle various stupid Radiate nonsense !
The card sets I made will probably never see play, I just do this for myself.
Sigh, I wish you lived here, You would fit perfecly in our group and I believe that you would have the fun of your life!
Puschkin: Man I thought Radiate was fantastic. Where else can you pull off some extremely retarded nonsense like that.
Hengewolf: It'd be funny if someone from Wizards read this site and decided that they'd reprint Child of Gaea just to tick you off. Sadly I also find myself with a serious lack of opponents. I'm trying to get some neighborhood kids to come over and play with my brother once a week or so. My hope is that I can eventually cultivate them into long-term players instead of one of the many 6-8th graders that I see pick up the game and drop it six months later.
My above comment was directed at Gzeiger btw.
I ditto HengeWolf.
I have no reason to go to the card shop. Ever. All the old/T1 cards are overpriced. ($15-$18 is insane for a played Dual) And there's no one to play with.
We have three guys who come in randomly and test their latest 50% proxy netdecks. Then there's a 12 year old who came in once and asked for Frozen Shades, and a mildly retarded guy who's real nice, but simply is not a challenging player.
Even at the college, I've found only three people to play with, two of which only played one time and with my cards. The third was simply too irritating to be around.
So I still pick up random cards at times, and build a deck a week for the monthly weekend I go home from college and play my one consistant magic buddy (and his painintheass Spiritmonger deck).
Aside from that, I've no reason to be involvedd in Magic at all. No thanks to WizCo, of course.
Yeah, the worst part is that I actually have TWO card stores close by, and they are both almost identical in terms of what I wrote above. Then again, they have many of the same regulars. Magic for these people is just not the magic I play, and that's not an exaggeration.
It's funny you should mention moving, Pusckin. I do plan to move out of here eventually, because part of what's wrong with magic around here is also kind of typical of the area I live in. But that's nothing to talk about . . .
Rico: I play with my younger brother and his friends sometimes. Unfortunately most of them are either terminal 'new players' or the '6 months and out' types. It's weird, but a lot of kids I've met think they know the game well, when they don't. Some of them will even argue against sound strategy, which is kind of funny. Everyone once in awhile one of them will 'graduate' into a terminal netdecker, it's like there's no middle ground with players today. They go from knowing nothing, to copying all the latest fads with very little creative input. Weird . . .
I have studying to do, so I can't make this another marathon typing session.
Pity, I was looking forward to one.
My brother happens to be the funniest almost twelve year old I know so playing with him is almost always entertaining. Around here he coined the terms 'Emperor Cockadile' and 'Rishadan Pornshop'. Not bad for a then eleven year old.
Though the over-all play level tends to be on the lower side we play with the 'Racist Deck', the 'Mexican Deck' (red, white, and green all foil like the Mexican flag), and the 'African Deck' (using many of the cards from Mirage) to make things interesting. Our games get funnier as the night wears on. Oh ya, my brother made a 'KKK' card and is in the process of making a 'Black Panther' card.
-Rico is reminiscing on Magic games past
Btw we aren't racist or anything. We merely find racists funny. Gotta clear that up.
What does the "racist" deck do? Torbo-Engineered Plague?
HengeWolf is moving? Actually I am looking for someone who rents one room of my flat ...
Naw, it just has all the cards that say stuff like Black Night, Light of Day, etc. Anything that affects black or white stuff.
Puschkin, is that an offer? Don't you live in Germany? I noticed in the spoiler you sent that it had German notations . . . Incidentally one of my friends is over there right now "studying abroad", probably playing magic as we speak, with some kid shouting "Meine Eichornchen!"
Rico, if you want a racist card, you need the Legends rare Invoke Prejudice. It's even got KKK guys in the picture. Seriously.
*** HengeWolf does not in any way endorse racism. In fact, he sees it as a way for useless people to try to define some way in which they can be superior. 'Gee, I've got an IQ of 65 and I work at McDonalds, but at least I'm melanin recessive.'
Having said that, I'm not politically correct, so as far as I'm concerned anything and everything is fair game to make fun of. A 'racist' magic deck . . . it's just silly.
Yup pretty much. Gotta enjoy yourself somehow though. I am proud to say that my family derives great enjoyment from all things whitetrash, especially mullets. That being said, you haven't seen a mullet until you've seen a Meximullet. They're fairly prominent in the Los Angeles area. For an idea of what I'm talking about go to www.mulletsgalore.com. It's a fantastic sight.
-Rico's brother even owns a book about mullets
It's 'site', not 'sight'.
Well, technically he could have been referring to the appearance of so many mullets and how they appealed to him. In that case, it *would* be a "fantastic sight." More than likely though, he was referring to the quality of the site rather than its contents, in which case you are correct, the term needed is "site." :D
Yes, yes and it is spelled Eichhörnchen" (squirrel). I live in Elmshorn, that´s 30km away from Hamburg.
Argghh. I continue to mispell things. And that was one of the mistakes the guy I corrected made. Sad, sad stuff.
-Ashamed Rico is kicking himself in the ass
I wanna see that!