http://www.bdominia.com/discus/messages/9/15126.shtml
Smith: 161.57.220.67
Jandor: 161.57.220.67
Would you mind sticking to just one alias in defending your opinions, please? It speaks poorly of someone who makes it appear that there are more people agreeing with Matt Smith than there really are.
Would you stick to not making ASSumptions please. I stay at the same dorm he does. And that is the comp in the lab. It runs off a T3 connection, in case you wanted to stick your nose in any other of my business.
tks so much for raising our awareness, (although I don't see why this needed its own forum)
Wow !!! Straight into a T3, that's on the backbone of one of the ISP's... Righ college kids nowadays...
yup... that's true some guys are connected right through a networked T3 8(
and the IP seems to fit...I'd say he goes to michigan university or something like that 8)
(though i have to understand why it says fsu.mich.net 8)
I'd like to repeat that I still find it a little disturbing that disagreeing with Rasco gets your ip posted. I don't think that it's any of the random public's buisness where people are posting from.
Additionally, 5 posts in a row in an unthreaded forum? Since when was spamming acceptable here?
not disagreeing...posting like what seems to be 2 nicks, maybe in order to make it seem like you have more support than you really have.
If it's FSU.MICH.NET, it probably represents Ferris State University. Sylvester, if the lab is hooked up through a Proxy server, every machine would have the same IP address as far as the outside world could tell. As a matter of fact, we use IP masquerading here. All 20+ PCs have the same IP address, as far as the outside world knows.
JBkramer: Because we've had people post obscenties to themselves under different aliases before, to attract attention to their posts. I believe Urza216 was the last guy to try it, and it looked really fishy.
So? It dosen't take you exposing private information about them to everyone for *IT* to look really fishy.
What it looked like to me was a witch hunt that the author wanted to participate in, but not as one of the hunted.
You prevented that, and that was wrong. Pretty much every time you come down with the godlike hand of moderation, you get it wrong. I don't like posts being deleted for being repetative (I'm good at skipping things.) I don't like kids being harassed out of deckbuilding by your "Warning, Deleteheads posts too much" messages and I generally don't like the conduct of people who see themselves as above the community.
I think you should stop.
your IP number is hardly private.
I have absolutely NO problem with moderation, for a simple reason, I don't flame, I try to post polite messages and don't dump crap... If you think no moderation is better go check mtgnews.com and look at the quality of the posts there...
Cheers,
Goldfish
Meh - without using knowledge you don't have, tell me my IP number.
My address is private between me and those I connect to, which do not include you.
I do not have a problem with moderation - I don't think that what was done to our topic and to Deletehead were "moderation" as much as "dick swinging madness."
Don't put words in my mouth again, please.
you are asserting your privacy with no legal leg to stand on.
moral arguments on whether it's "right" or "wrong" are less than worthless. your values mean nothing to me, and i don't care what you think is right or wrong.
Ahh, you changed your tune. Now you don't care if it's moral or not, you only care if it's legal.
That's the kind of good wholesome americanism I expect to hear. "Damn Should, Can I?"
care to explain where i changed my tune, or are you just going to continue to masturbate your ego?
BREAK IT UP, boys. Please.
And to address the points...
"I don't like posts being deleted for being repetative (I'm good at skipping things.)"
--> Well, sorry, but a lot of new visitors may not be as smart as you, genius. ;)
--> And we don't kill posts just for being repetitive.
"I don't like kids being harassed out of deckbuilding by your "Warning, Deleteheads posts too much" messages"
--> And I don't like receiving persistent complaints about a specific poster "spamming" the Mill with a steady stream of decklists they feel were hardly given any thought, or much explanation for that matter.
--> Name another instance of your so-called "harrassment" then.
"and I generally don't like the conduct of people who see themselves as above the community."
--> And who claim to be?
Again, we try to keep posts tight over here. So far, we feel it's worked quite well.
And Goldfish, I hear Mtgnews.com's Type I area isn't so bad.
Meh - Your first statement was that my IP was not private. You changed that by saying that revealing my IP was not illegal, which insinuates that, pre-revealed, my IP is private, as it is not revealed.
Rasco - You kill posts for being inflamatory, or disagreeing emotionally with you (you don't kill posts for aggreeing emotionally with you). You deleted things Negator had to say (which were wrong) because he was yelling at your friend. You deleted what Deletehead had to say because your friend yelled at him. I'm willing to bet it's the same person both times. This is all conduct that is not moral. It is TRIVIAL for people to just ignore what they don't want to hear, unless it's repeated many many times. Deletehead posted what, 2 decks a day? Negator whined in 2 threads. Ignorable, all of it.
You certainly do not keep posts tight here - you do the same that every other isolated community on the internet attempts to do - you limit posters allowed any laxity to people you like. You are naught but the Just For Fun Club, the Malicious Hackers, Werewolves (NyAR!), Maryanne Kehoe or Elaine "Romath" Matthews. You are a two-bit dictator, using what limited power you have to increase your stature, and I call you on it. Stop picking on the newbies. You should have coddled deletehead, ignored negator and laughed at Smith. You failed all three. Shame.
What you need is a good trolling. Bow To Meow.
so i guess we're "wrong" because we don't agree with your moral bigotry?
yeah, you're just an ego-masturbator.
and no, i never changed by stance. i'll re-phrase it.
your IP number may be unknown, but it's certainly not private. it can be sniffed and spoofed by third parties.
you should probably learn to argue better before you finish high school.
and this is the last i have to say about this. your posts speak for themselves.
Clearly, sir, you have proven me wrong, though I have attempted nothing of the sort with you.
You are an immoral person for having a values system that allows you to disclose what others would have private.
You are an immoral person for regressing to arguments against the man in what was previously a civil debate.
Without going too far into network management, it would be extremely difficult for you to determine my IP address without either getting that info from BDominia or myself, because you are not located along the transit path between us.
In actuality, the ability to "spoof" (A word which means something different than what you believe it means) any IP address in no way compromises the fact that you don't know my IP address.
The fact that it would be difficult, if not impossible, for you to "sniff" (A word which means something different than what you believe it means) my IP address from bulk information passed over the backbone network makes me fairly secure that this conversation between you and I, though not between myself and bdominia, which I voluntarily disclose my IP address to when I connect to it, is generally anonymous to the point I desire.
Additionally, I would note that you can find independent verification that I have graduated both High School and College.
Actually, I believe that my posts do speak for themselves, and that your degradation to attempting to attack my education (or were you attacking my intelligence - I'm not really clear) shows that, in fact, I have learned to argue far better than you would imagine.
In closing, I would merely like to state that I think your use of terms that you do not understand and your ad hominem attacks against my character demonstrate that you are, in fact, highly emotionally invested in this - something I would find unhealthy if I were you. Perhaps you need a break.
Having ignored similar threads the last times, I'd like to say something now:
I understand both, Rakso's concerns and jpkramer's concerns. One problem is, that different topics (posting IPs, the "witch hunt") are mixed up in this thread. I'll try to present my points of view.
Rakso: It is good that you intervened, I am just not sure whether a new thread is the appropriate medium for such an intervention. Maybe an e-mail to the corresponding person is sufficient in such cases? The problem is really, that an IP adress is not neccessarily equivalent with some person posting here. And although revealing an IP adress really reveals nothing essential, some people might have Big-Brother feelings about it. And regarding the Matt Smith-thread, I admit that the analogy to a witch-hunt is maybe not far from the truth. At least for an outsider it might reveal too much local patriotism.
jpkramer: High quality discussion needs to be peer-reviewed (unfortunately - this seems to be human nature). Of course, it would be better, if the moderator would not be involved personally in discussions, much like it is good that a judge should not participate at a tournament. Alas, this would have to be a paid job, or else nobody would do it. Rakso is making an excellent job, IMO, and trying to be as objective as reasonably achievable, but after all he is human
And this thread does not exist, because Jandor disagreed with Rakso, but because Rakso assumed that Jandor was identical with Smith.
Goldfish: I agree that moderation is good. But who decides, what is crap and what not? A new deck may look like crap to you, before you comprehend its subtle points. Apart from the moderator also the community decides, whether they are interested in a posted deck or not - if there are many replies, the community is obviously interested, if there are none, obviously not.
meh: I am sorry, but I must say that I have little sympathy for the increasing aggresive flavour of your posts in this thread.
Look, about privacy of IP addresses.
Point one, most companies have a firewall and use NAT (Network Address translation) to tunnel the private IP's to 1 single Public IP (the private Ip address everyone seems to be making such a big deal about). So most of the time these public IP's have 100's, 1000's of internal IP's (PC's) behind them, all being represented by this one Public IP.
Point two, it is all to easy to find out someone's IpP address, just send me an E-mail and I'll tell you your IP... That's how simple it is... and that's just one way to find out.
For the rest I agree with big blue that sending an e-mail to the concerned parties might have been more appropriate than starting a thread, but the whole discussion about the privacy of a public IP address is silly since it is owned by the university and not MR. Kramer anyhow...
Goldfish
Network Security Engineer
it all started over a semantic issue dealing with personal connotations of the word "privacy."
i don't see it ending until all parties come to an agreed-upon definition of "privacy."
Wow, I'm sure glad people are getting really worked up about this. Just shows how much we care. Thank God for such vigilence. Those accusations are really putting people in their place (and stay there!). Everything is back at peace now, I hope?
-Ted
mtgnews.com's T1 forum is pretty good. I give advice there all the time.
http://www.mtgnews.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=37c1ec6788f279691ecd21bd307a495f&forumid=39
Who gives a flip? So what if Mr. Smith is in such dire need of stroking (ego stroking that is) and attention that he used two names. So what if his roommate uses the same computer as he. So what if he lives in his own Type One world with his “adoring woman” (she has kaleidoscope eyes and her name is Lucy I think).
The amount of energy put into these pick at people or topic threads could power a medium sized New England town for the Month of January. With all the egos in here you'd think that we were in a hospital bruise triage unit and there is short supply of Bacteen and lollipops.
The efforts placed in here are getting as distasteful as watching Bella Lagosi parade around in pink spandex from the Jr. miss department of JC Penny in Miami in the middle of July.
The article written by Mr. Smith was a waste of good post space. Even I have better use for bad punctuation and lousy grammar. However, he can write what he wants. We should be able to agree or disagree and debate our points... but come on folks, even Roy Rogers eventually let Trigger die... but I don't think any of us will be taking Mr. Smith's article to a taxidermist to have it stuffed and mounted anytime soon.
Again, so what if he used a second alias, everyone needs at least one friend and who can blame a guy for being his own advocate. Posting people’s IP address is REALY not cool. My in-laws had someone poking around their computer like it was a two-bit nickelodeon. When my mom-in-law saw them perusing my wedding pics when she finally pulled the plug and got a new IP address. Posting an IP address is like helping someone into a place they should not go cause you never know what they might find on your machine... I mean if you are going to run for President some day, you would not want then to know about that incident you were involved in with the 40 pounds of tapioca pudding, 3 live moray eels, a spool of 40-pound test, a pair of fuzzy thumb-cuffs, six bags of quick-drying cement, a yo-yo, a box of saran wrap, two hair-nets and an young adult male sheep named Clyde.
Privacy as defined by Webster is "the quality of state of being apart form the company or observation of others". Posting on the Internet is about as private as a high school assembly. If you post something, even the weather report for your local area, someone is going to take it personally for some reason or another that you posted that. The IP address and information like that should not be posted, even to make a point about someone who deserves a bit of ranting in their direction, but he will rename nameless, right Mr. Smith. That information should remain out of the observation of others, but nothing prevents someone from saying that the address are the same, just don't post them.
As far as getting along goes, I try to be an even minded individual that tries to see things from every point of view. I have seen more bipartisanship and respect for another’s differing beliefs in that ass and elephant show we in the US call Congress. I don't think Watergate got this much attention, let alone the chick with the Oval Office kneepads... Monicowlinksi.
Now I know Hell has not froze over or anything yet, so I don't expect to see Malcolm X and Woody Allen walking hand in hand down a candy lane with rainbows flowing everywhere as we wait for the nightly world news report with Pamela Anderson and Cindy Crawford cause were in the middle of a Sally Struthers info-help-the-food-less commercial where she actually says "Stop sending money for, I can't eat anymore!" But can we as a group of Magic loving Type One-ists just discuss our differences in an orderly fashion and make sure that each of us takes turns being the better ego instead of trying to be the bigger ego by just agreeing to disagree. Letting something go as agreeing to disagree does not ever require posting.
Lets all just agree to disagree about the article and ethics and such and get back to what we all like doing… Making T1 decks.
I’ll even make the Tang.
Goldfish - what are you offering me to prove you wrong regarding the email/IP address? How about my Mox Sapphire against your Mox Jet?
Meh - Privacy is the ability maintain control over information. Untill Rasco started blatently violating privacy here, most users had it. Now I'm going to start browsing this forum through something that hides my IP.
Again, You can't find my IP unless I let you. When I connect to your machine, I imply consent. I do not consent for you to give it out to anyone, like Rasco does to people he dosen't like.
I'm not offering anything just send me and unless your firewall filters out that specific header you'll find the IP address in the mail, Peon.
Assuming you are not running unix/linux and spoofing some IP-address.
go to www.privacyfoundation.org and see how much privacy you really have. if you're worried about a stupid ip address being public, then you're in for a real shock.
Goldfish - You aren't a security consultant, are you? Be honest now. Firewalls don't filter mail.
I note that you've clarified one part of the whole picture - now I'm not allowed to spoof my ip. Here, I'll give you another go, if you'd like.
Think dyndns, switching the target of the dns, and having a mailserver (like sendmail 8) that converts the ip's on the recieved to the dns entry.
Or, open relays (sendmail 5). Or, anonymous remailers. Or, free stripper relays. Or, IPF?
I know it's all hard to believe, but mail, since it's not direct, does not id. When I get home, I'll show you.
Meh - Since I connect to privacyfoundation when I open their website, I clearly allow them to get information (and not much information, at all, actually) from me. I have not consented to have them give my information to others. I don't think you are reading what I write, are you?
Not to follow up on the same thing, but.
Privacyfoundation was not the sight I thought they were. They are a bitchandmoan about webbugs and cookies.
I have cookies disabled and do not accept images from most sources. Doubleclick is firewalled at my router. Most of privacyfoundation's info does not apply to me.
Yes I am,
And yes firewalls can do that... You can configure a SMTP-Proxy which basically can check anything (Mime-types, content, extensions)... If I for example don't want to get mails in my company that have the word "magic" in them, I can simply configure my SMTP-Proxy to deny those E-mails... same for attachments etc etc... That's what firewalls do for a big part...
Even when using open relays, your e-mail will tell me the host that initiated the mail, the mailserver used etc.etc... unless you are spoofing it will give me the IP...
Believe it or not I'm a certified Firewall specialist...
But I'll be the first to admit that when you're good, you can get away with anything... simply surfing anonymously (through a proxy) to a yahoo mailbox will pretty much do the trick...
just wondering... how can a post like this turn out to be this long
Because people like you and me keep adding to it?
"Rakso: It is good that you intervened, I am just not sure whether a new thread is the appropriate medium for such an intervention. Maybe an e-mail to the corresponding person is sufficient in such cases? The problem is really, that an IP adress is not neccessarily equivalent with some person posting here. And although revealing an IP adress really reveals nothing essential, some people might have Big-Brother feelings about it. And regarding the Matt Smith-thread, I admit that the analogy to a witch-hunt is maybe not far from the truth. At least for an outsider it might reveal too much local patriotism."
--> Just to get some objective feedback here.
--> I routinely post the IPs of offenders to show that something fishy may be going on and as deterrence. You guys know this is what I do.
--> In this case, I felt it was a bit public because if Smith and Jandor were one and the same, then I felt it would be unfair for the people talking with Smith on the other thread. Certainly not illegal, but I felt it was unfair.
--> There's no witch hunt, of course, but I can't control how people react and whether or not they spontaneously react in similar ways to something. I told him to post here, and we would've gladly debated any points he wanted to. (We did.)
"Goldfish: I agree that moderation is good. But who decides, what is crap and what not? A new deck may look like crap to you, before you comprehend its subtle points. Apart from the moderator also the community decides, whether they are interested in a posted deck or not - if there are many replies, the community is obviously interested, if there are none, obviously not."
--> We don't delete threads because we feel they're crap.
--> I think it is fair enough to delete threads that look like spam or are in weird formatting.
As usual, this thread gets the axe if it goes out of hand.
peon:
WRONG! If one really wants to, s/he can use the firewall/proxy box to filter SMTP too.
Where do you think your packets go through before reaching the SMTP server?
Ouch, its amazing the little things people get worked up about.
"I may not agree with a word you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"-Votaire
Peon, please try to spell names correctly (Rakso), and let's all try to have a little common coutesy. It's not worth getting truely upset over.
Personally, I think Rakso does a fair and just job keeping these mills clean. Why are we all getting so worked up when a person who lies gets exposed?
Peon: If you dislike the way the mill is run, go play on another site. Rakso may not be the fairest/most democratic mod around; but I'll take a capable mod who keeps everything flowing over that any day. Rakso, just 1984 the thread already.
Since the packets SMTP sends over IP are of arbitrary length and size, it would be a monumental task to filter based on them, especially when it would be significantly easier to just set up a relay server for all outgoing transit. I find it amusing that people are so desperate to remove the entire thread.
And, of course, the last cry of the conservative without future argument - "If you don't like it, go away."
No.
Peon,
You are wrong... I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about, a relay server is not a proxy server. And if you have a decent firewall it will be able to to Proxing and Stateful inspection, has nothing to do with the length of the packets or anything else... Enabling a proxy on your firewall has just a small impact on the performance...
But hey, you seem to be the expert ...
Goldfish
It is common practice on many forums to post the IP address of people who have broken the rules of the forum (or appear to have broken the rules of the forum. Moderators are, after all, normal people and aren't omniscient). What Rakso did really wasn't all that out of the ordinary.
Jeff may want to read this.