Az, how many Responses do you run now? The Philippine National champ sold me a couple for a buck apiece.
May try this OSE, though it'd pain me to cut white out of my control deck.
I've been thinking more and more lately about ditching the Academy from my Keeper deck.
The mana base of my Keeper deck is as follows...
1 Academy
1 Lotus
1 Sol
5 Moxen
4 Wastes
4 City
4 Sea
4 Tundra
2 Tropical
1 Library
1 Strip
The mana base of the 5 color (and still using sylvan) version I've been toying with lately is...
1 Academy
1 Lotus
1 Sol
5 Moxen
4 Wastes
4 City
4 Sea
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic
1 Library
1 Strip
The only other maindeck artifact I have other than moxen is a lone Z. Orb I think.
Now in many mirror matchups when I'm pressed for space the 4 color version sides out the mox ruby (no red) and the Zorb (sucks against control). That's two less sources of artifacts to power the acsdemy. Now take inot account that a lot of the contro ldecs are using 2 Gorilla Shamans. I wonder if perhaps it would be better to forego using academy altogether?
It does tend to get wasted on sight, but it's real saving grae, for me, is that when I yawgwill I bring it back (along with killed moxen) and use it like a huge blue ritual to go nuts.
--Matt
I was actually thinking of this as well. Do you run ANY X-spells anymore? Stroke? Do you run D-Blows or Disenchants or Vindicates.
If you have Stroke or D-Blows, I would suggest keeping the Academy in. It makes it much easier to make them effective. If you don't run either, I say go ahead and drop it. Put a *gasp* basic land in there. See how it works.
With the Sylvan though, you can keep it on the top of your library until it is useful, just draw around it, or time your shuffling effects to avoid it. If you're doing that, it may be time to let it go.
There's no need to make Keeper's already Fragile Mana Base even more shaky. If you think it will make the deck's mana more stable, go for it.
The Maxx
I still use Stroke and I use Dismantling Blow. Sometimes I think I want to put my Geyser back in.
It seems mono-U is the only matchup I really want FoF and not Geyser...
--Matt
I don't use Tolarian Academy at all anymore, even when OSE had 4 Moxen with all the other artifacts. It doesn't add much speed (in Keeper!) and it's a bit unsteady outside of combo.
I really, really enjoy Academy in control. Many times Willing it out of the grave with a bunch of other artifact mana let me just go nuts rather than merely ancestral and walk. Also I love just tapping academy to hard cast a FoW...
The problem I have is really what to do with it in the ever prevalent in my area mirror match. Siding out Zorb and maybe a Mox hurts it and shamans can finish it off.
I DO think, if I go back to 4 color control, that Ruby and Academy will become a pair of Mishra's.
--Matt
I think that academy is really valuable when using yag will. Its also nice for the extra mana, to cast force of will or stroke, I used to run torch, took it out for the online torney for a shaman tho cause well online everyone have mox. IRL tho not everyone have mox. I really like the boast in mana that it can give u, I play all 5 colors and I wouldn't cut academy its good more often then it is bad. Usually u have a mox or two at least so it provide 2 blue at least so it good. I disagree on siding out mox tho. Often I will side out a waste cause I have miners coming in.
Matt, u so should run mishras, I been runing them ever since urza block and my switch over to beauty and the beast build of morphling masticore, instead of serra angel moat, sacred messa. needed something to replace messa kinda. mishras are SOOOO good, uncorunterable critter that doesn't go into the hole, strip and wastes often are used on LoA, academy and mana denial so alot of times they live and do damage.
It allows u to win with out fighting that big counterwar over morphling. and I've seen countless people edict me with morphling on the table and in response anime mishra sack it XD hahahha.
Oh make sure u get spring ones they the pretties picture, fall and winter are like blah and well spring is better then summer
Mako Satou
Winter are the best! But OSE will run all four for the year round beat down. :P
I like my Mishra's Factories in this order: Winter, Summer, Fall, Spring.
Yeah, I enjoy having the four variations, as rare as alternate art on good cards is.
Az, how many Responses do you run now? The Philippine National champ sold me a couple for a buck apiece.
May try this OSE, though it'd pain me to cut white out of my control deck.
That's funny, because I excluded Academy a couple of months ago after some horrible Nether Void experience, and now it is back (maybe because I've been playing your Academy deck lately ;)).
Academy seems to be a bit like those cards which are excellent when you are already winning, but bad when you are on the edge. But it is not quite true. E.g. against BBS Academy is quite good. Or against POX it can be VERY helpful.
And against Keepers with Mox Monkeys you could side it out, since with blasts 27 mana sources should be sufficient. I'd still keep the Ruby, though. I mean, REBs? Or is it a red-less version?!
But of course, if your area is full of Keeper, Academy is not worth the MD slot.
>>>Often I will side out a waste cause I have miners coming in.
Not really a good idea--Miners and Wastes go together. Miner has a certain window of time when he's effective. If you put him on the table when he's got like 40 sources of maa he sucks--you need to strip/Waste him along the way (unless you run like three miners and can guarantee an early one). Also an early library is game if you don't deal with it.
>>>Matt, u so should run mishras, I been runing them ever since urza block and
I used to run them and cut them out. If I go back to 4 color they are in 100% guaranteed. If I stay red with Shamans I'm using 5 strips not 4 and 2 Mishra's (a 5 color control deck just can't support 5 strips and 2 Mishra's--it just doesn't work) because if I'm running Shamans I want as much landkill as possible to combo with them.
I will say this though...in YOUR beauty and Beast Keeper I _wouldn't_ run two Morphlings--ditch him for Shaman #2. 2 Mishra's, 2 Shamans, 1 Morph is really plenty--PLUS you have the 'Core.
>>>I'd still keep the Ruby, though. I mean, REBs? Or is it a red-less version?!
Yes, the Keeper I've played for the last 2 years cut out Red entirely (the second Urza's came out I was like...Pyros OUT, Duress IN). I miss Pyros, but the 4 colors works smoother than five. It really is an amazingly noticeable difference.
HOWEVER, I think I might need the 2 Shamans back (and not one, one isn't enough--I don't want to have to tutor for the stupid thing).
My area is about as Keeper-heavy as it gets--about 50% stock 2 Mox Monkeys maindeck. This is my reason for thinking about dropping my Academy.
--Matt
P.S. Az and Mako, I AM a huge fan of Dwarven Miner in the mirror, but all the control decks here are heavily prepared for the little buggers. My friend Eric and I used them for a couple of weeks and just wrecked everyone with them--then people started siding in 3 Hydros and 2 Teferi's Responses or sometimes Sacred Ground.
Just one Response Rakso, in the T1 version. Cut out white and your deck just gets better. ;)
Yeah, Rakso. I've even been playing a powerless U/B and think its absolutly fabulous. The only think you really lose is Balance and Dismantling Blow, but you get Kegs instead (Well, personally I run 4 Disks, but I play casual/multiplayer usually). And not only does the maindeck get better with Duresses and whatnot, but so does the mana. More often than not, my Mishra's win me games rather than my Morphling does. And they are great for defense.
-Eric
Matt: You do have a point about siding out waste my bad, I kinda suck at sideboarding stuff which was why before I was trying to establish like a predetermined what to side in / out against certain decks in my other post.
I don't think I would cut the 2nd morphling tho. Way back I read in article that why there are 2 serra angels in the deck, and well so if one dies or if you need to plow one for life. Well now days its if one morph dies or u need to pitch a morph to force of will or lose one to a FoF where there is a 4 card pile and then a 1 pile with morph. My Old build had 2 Serra Angel, Sacred Messa as kill so I'm now 2 morphling, masticore
2 is morph is a good number cause of the ability to ditch one to force if u have to and its easier to get one.
I think red is really strong for REB and Miner. Miner just wrecks other control decks which is why I have sacred grounds. My bfs ld deck uses miners I HATE them, Shaman's less so, My RL version of beauty and the beast doesn't run shaman I just put him in for the online tourney and I'll see how it works. the IRL version runs a deathgrasp testing to replace torch which I got misdirected in my face at the last tourney when I went for the kill when they at like 6 life from mishra beating. I think Torch is better still might cut it for the monkey I'll see how it works online. There are hardly any mox to eat irl so I think monkey irl isn't all that good but online everyone can have mox.
Azhrei: I disagree with cutting white, balance saves u ALOT, cop red just wins against sligh, Sacred ground is just good against LD and miners in the mirror, and moat saves the day against aggro, but it could work masticore and kegs do the job against sligh and agro but what saves u against LD and miners?
Eric: I agree that Mishras win as many games as morphling which is why I run mishras too.
Mako Satou
What saves me against LD and Miners? Misdirection, Teferi's Response, and a whole lotta BASIC LAND.
Mis-D and Response are gameswinging situational plays, but a single Sacred Ground is such permanent card advantage -- every Wasteland, Miner, Stone Rain, or Sinkhole they draw is dead. And in my experience, Keeper mirrors want to save their Blow for something else.
The other bonus of having academy, however, is that it precludes your opponent from playing one. Just a consideration.
academy imo isn't worth it, in a generic keeper deck you have like what 5-6 artifacts in general, chances are you won't see many of them and you rarely see the academy anyway unless you tutor for it. I had been playing my keeper deck without the academy for awhile now, I prefer to have a more solid mana base to having potential more mana which may not appear that often.
Dunno,
Academy seems to my like a cards that's best when you make a deck around it that breaks it... Turboland (gush, trade routes, fastbond, Spiral) or Twisterdecks... Maybe in control decks you're better of with a basic Island, face it you want to CONTROL the game, not go off ASAP or generate huge amounts of mana (what would you do with them anyhow?)... Academy gets wasted/stripped almost immediately anyhow... And as stated above in most control decks you don't run that many artifacts anyhow...
Cheers
Goldfish
Sacred Ground is also ONLY good against an LD deck, so whoop de do. Response is good against anything that might want to kill Factories or LoA, is BLUE, and is a surprise card. Misdirection is awesome against counters, Stroke, Hymn, LD, Fireblast... Sacred who?
I can't bring myself to drop the Academy. In my new environment, there is SO much sligh and stompy, that hardcasting that Force instead of pitching it makes a whole lot of difference. Plus, I had a bad experience with t2+Sol Ring Opposition deck. He had removed both Morphlings with Rootwater thief before I could Kill it. If it weren't for the Academy, I wouldn't have been able to draw into theose extra lands I needed to cast Twister for the alternate kill.(Yes, I still MD Crypt )
The Maxx
>>>What saves me against LD and Miners? Misdirection, Teferi's Response, and a whole lotta BASIC LAND.
Basic lands IMO are best used for proxying dual lands. Basic land what? I don't own any....maybe the head judges at NG will let me use Tolarias as basic islands?
Seriously though I don't think I would be able to be happy playing any deck that is less than three colors (mono-black excluded). Magic, is still essentially about having fun and I get really bored if I don't have lots of options.
BtW, I think Academy has to say (unless I add Mishra's). Once against it proved it's use to me (it wass about the only thing in my deck that wasn't ass this weekend) as as a huge blue dark ritual with Yawgwill. So many times a Yawgwill would be almost worthelss or just stop me from losing--but the sudden burst of moxen and academy turns it into an absolute game winner. If I ever add those Misrha's Academy get's ditched.
BtW I also thing Spring look best--Winter have the highest trade value by far though.
>>>academy imo isn't worth it, in a generic keeper deck you have like what 5-6 artifacts in general, chances are you won't see many of them and you rarely see the academy anyway unless you tutor for it.
The average Keeper deck has 8 artifacts maindeck. 8 to 1 is a pretty good ratio. I dunno, I tend to see academy at some point every single game and I've only tutored for it once in my life. We do draw a lot of extra cards...
>>>I don't think I would cut the 2nd morphling tho. Way back I read in article that why there are 2 serra angels in the deck, and well so if one dies or if you need to plow one for life
Yeah, but the point is that Serra is a hell of a lot more fragile than a Morph--even so most diehard control players only play morph after the game i locked up (except in emergencies).
For my current build I need two Morphs, because as you said, sometimes you want to pitch them to FoW. However, you also have Shaman, Masticore, and 2 Misrha's to win with--plus Stroke is need be. That's more than enough ways to win IMO. BtW how is Vindicate working for you?
--Matt
"Just one Response Rakso, in the T1 version. Cut out white and your deck just gets better. ;)"
--> I know, I know. But since I don't play the same opposition and don't sideboard, white makes for more fun games with certain of the tricks.
Azhrei: I disagree with that sacred ground is only good against LD decks, against any deck where they side in miner, sacred ground is really good.
Matt:I agree with you that more colors give you more options and I'm a fan of 5 color myself. I had absolutely had to play 1 or 2 colors respectively I would either play mono blue. two colors would be blue black. Its just irresistable to splash Sylvan and Regrowth off Cities, Emerald and Lotus. Vulnerability is of multi color only really is exploited by red or blue.
Waaai someone else likes spring mishras winter onres are like all dead and uggly
I definately think that Academy is really good with Yawgwill, providing lots of mana for Yawgwill. I also like the Academy cause you can hard cast force with it and it provides lots of mana for shooting things with Masticore. I disagree with cutting Academy if you use Mishras, cause Mishras are an excellent sink for Extra Academy mana or mana drain mana so why cut academy?
I don't really count Shaman since beats for 1 aren't very effective and I don't have a Shaman in my IRL deck I just put it there for the online tourney. IRL I just tested Death Grasp and got it misdirected in my face I'm thinking going back to torch or droping the X spell all together. It suits my agressive kill them faster style tho. OFten burn them out after some mishra beatings.
Also you have to consider that Masticore gets sided out versus most control matchups, if I KNOW they have miners coming in sometimes masticore stays in but I'd rather have sacred ground. I don't really think that I could play with 1 morph, I like getting one so I can kill my opponent as soon as I have counterback up. I find that if I wait I run out of counters and they pull of a yawgwill or something to make me lose.
Vindicate works pretty nicely sometimes as a replacement for blow I dunno blow is easier to cast and it goes out for the seal alot. I have mysticalled for it to blow up a library before tho and I've used it to kill critters where a blow wouldn't have helped me. Other times it sits in my hand and I wonder where all my white or black mana went, also it is big time misdirection bait since u can misdirect it to like anything. I've had opponents misdirect my vindicate to blow up my library. With blow they can only misdirect to enchantment and artifact and seal not at all.
Mako Satou
If Death Grasp gets Misdirected don't you just gain the lifeback anyways as long as you aren't dead?
Right now I'm keeping my D. Blow in (I really like the drawing power against control, especially BBS)--although once in a while I really wish it was a Vindicate to blow up some annoying creeature.
True Shamans aren't great beatings, but control decks don't run much critter elim nowadays--I've had Shamans chop off 11 points of life or more before they fell in the Abyss or something. Plus Mishra's are no joke! 2 damage a turn is not bad (considering you don't have to cast them though counters) and if it gets wasted it can come out later with Yawgwill. Playing against Mike Pustilnik, I think every tie I've lost to him it was Mishra beatdown (and msaybe a shaman joining in) not Morph that did me it. Against aggro it's all pretty irrelevant--'Core is in and there aren't many key spells to force (thus you aren't chucking Morph.
The truth is I would rather run one Morph than two, but I have to because it's my only kill source and I DO chuck it to Force sometimes (actually, since I know there are two I chuck Morph quite often). Control mirrors are generally decided by cards drawn and mana--not damage. Thus I'd rather see a counter or something else to help me gain control than a Morph in my opening hand. Hey I wonder if Az will let me back into the old-school for saying that.
--Matt
yes, you just gain the life back. you won't even die to SBEs.
Misdirected Death Grasps do nothing, because both the damage and life gain happen before either player gets priority and state-based effects are checked.
I beat for 20 damage once with a miner. For online, he's great. He gets sided out a bunch, but many times he has won me the first game in match against combo or control.
Matt: True u get your life back if u don't die from isdirected death grasp but its still annoying to have it misdirected when the blue player was at 6 from mishra beats. I don't play mox monkey irl not enough people have mox to make him worth wile, online mox monkey good he eat lots of stuff yum yum. I've played with 2 morph for so long that I'm quite used to being able to pitch it to force or not take a morph when I fof early in favor of counters or osmething else. It is true that I win alot of control versus control matches with mishra beats. I think it will stay in for now theres nothing I really need the slot for over right now. I understand that you want the slot for something else but I think having another kill is always good, blue mage drops a rootwater thief, it will take u a couple turns to toast him, first smack morphling one gone, (if you only play 1 morph as kill u go OOOOH NO I lose) second smack morph two is gone (now most control players say OH no I lose), U see what I mean, me I'm like ok that makes it ALOT harder to win but whatever also jesters cap but I never been caped before so I don't fear that but thieves I've seen both in mono blue and bad fish decks.
npa: really? so if I am at 3 life and I deathgraps for 5 to kill juzam and they playing blue black and misdirect it to me I wouldn't die?
manic:
20 damage with miner waaaaai I've done that before, no lands on table
Mako Satou
Mako - you can only die when a player has priority. Since Death Grasp resolves "all at once," a misdirected Death Grasp (under normal circumstances) cannot kill you. You will gain and lose the life before any player gains priority.
Mako: Correct, you can never be killed by your own death grasp. Well. Not unless there is a forsaken wastes out or something.
The reason is that SBE (state-based effects, which are what kill players and creatures, and do a few other odd jobs) are only every checked (and are always checked) whenever any player would gain priority. No player ever has priority during the resolution of a spell.