Keeper Kernels... Side out Mystical Tutor and Vampiric Tutor vs Control?
Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Archived threads of the Beyond Dominia Type I Mill: Keeper Kernels... Side out Mystical Tutor and Vampiric Tutor vs Control?

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By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 05:51 am:

Okay... I just went 2-1 against PsychoCid's mono blue with my reconstructed rough Keeper list.

Game 1, with no boards, Sylvan Library won the game by itself, btw.

I sided in 4 REBs and 4 Rootwater Thief. I noticed that the first thing I found myself siding out was the Mystical/Vampiric Tutor duo, with Merchant Scroll a close third.

Do other people do this? Playing BSB myself, I found that the control vs control here was a question of topdecking more than your opponent does. Everything you draw better be a counter or something on the scale of Will. Thus, you trim evrey source of card disadvantage you have.

People agree?

I wasn't siding out Ancestral or Mind Twist, though. :)

By meh on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 09:00 am:

i've been doing that for years. you'll hear a lot of disagreement from people who sideboard in a more traditional manner, though.

By Begbie on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 09:37 am:

I've done the same thing at times. I think the logic goes that in the Keeper vs BSB, it's not about the one of a kind silver bullets for keeper; it's eventually outrunning BSB with REBs, Drains, Sylvans, and, most importantly, Yawgmoth's broken ass Will.

Begbie

By Lava on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 10:17 am:

since control is i beleve your hardest matchup why not drop them and side them in when sutable?

By mepersonthing on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 10:27 am:

I do the same thing.
Another way to look at it is that in an aggro matchup drawing that one moat in your deck early is crucial. In the control mirror, it matters more that each card you draw helps than drawing a specific threat, because if you draw enough counters, etc. you're likely to draw that threat eventually anyway.

They belong in the main because while not optimal vs. control they are certainly good, and without them you would lose horribly to an aggro deck.

By Acolytec (Acolytec) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 07:05 pm:

Mystical should definitely go. Vampiric is actually a card that I will always counter when I am playing blue for the simple reason that unless I happen to be saving a wasteland, Library is the absolute last thing that I want to see a keeper deck play. Red Elemental Blast is definitely the second worst card that they can play. Pyroblast would be the third. Keeper can beat blue- they just need to be a little bit more absurd in making their sideboards than they presently are.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 01:06 am:

How do YOU think Keeper should SB against mono-U?

For example, should Abyss be left in?

By meh on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 01:10 am:

eh, why would you leave abyss in?

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 02:08 am:

Sideboarded creatures?

By meh on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 02:12 am:

what are they going bring in? masticore? morphling? unless the build is very rogue (which you really shouldn't assume unless there are indications otherwise.), the abyss will be useless.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 02:35 am:

Rootwater Thief?

By Nameless, the Mysterious Man of Signed Anonymous Posts (Nameless) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 07:53 am:

Well, I think you remember how I SB'ed vs. almost everyone... My tutors are the SB card of choice in most cases. Unless I'm siding in a specific hoser against a deck I'll side out all the tutors, with the exception to the tutors that can actually get the hoser I just put in directly. I don't like the 'delay' Vampiric and Mystical give you otherwise. Sure you get the card of your choice, but you give up tempo advantage and technically put yourself a whole draw phase behind the opponent. In some matchups you simply cannot afford to do this...

By meh on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 08:58 am:

in the case of rootwater thief, will you still have an abyss to cast by the time you can?

By Acolytec (Acolytec) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 02:08 pm:

How would I sideboard keeper? I would probably be running a U/B/r (maybe a balance too) version with 3 duress maindeck. Thus, I would sideboard 6 Red blasts and the 4th duress. This would put me at 6 blasts, 4 duress, 4 force, 4 mana drain, and 1-2 misdirection. I might keep in the demonic tutor in. I would basically side out anything (including wastelands) that seemed unuseful.Will and Edicts would probably stay.Then again, I don't play keeper...

By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 08:33 pm:

I support the decision to sideboard out Vampiric, but not Mystical. It provides you with a way to grab Will/Twsit/etc. when the timely opportunity arrives, but most importantly....it's a blue card and vamp isn't. If anything Regrowth is something better for a 5 color deck to side out since it's harder to cast (most of them don't run trops) and requires something good being in the gravetard first to make it not a dead card.

I also don't like transformational sideboards in control. I try to sideboard cards that will help my deck do what it does better as opposed to changing the focus entirely.

--Matt

P.S. I also don't support duress main unles you play some sort of U/B or U/B/x redux version. Duress is great as a sideboard card but it's not as good against non-control decks and puts heavier burden on your manabase by not being blue.

By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 08:34 pm:

Oh and I never, ever side out Merchant Scroll.

I would highly recommend you take out a Wsteland against mono-U though.

--Matt

By Liam (Liam) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 09:06 pm:

yes. I would side out first a wsteland, and then The Abyss, and then Moat in older versions.

By Spin13 (Spin13) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 10:50 pm:

Why don't you ever side out Merchant Scroll? I'm curious as to your reasoning...I question its presence maindeck (in OSE this is), and never thought twice about sideboarding it out. Mystical/Vampiric and Response/Misdirection got more consideration for leaving in than Scroll did. I really don't like the card at all. It doesn't get me a Masticore, Abyss, or Library, and I can either play another FoF or Counter rather than spend 2 mana to cast Scroll to get one of those or Ancestral, especially when I am strapped for mana (as I'm feeding a Masticore, and oh...winning...)

-Eric

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Monday, August 27, 2001 - 04:48 am:

You know, I was always thinking of siding out the Regrowth... never thought it'd occur to someone else.

Magic question Matt... what do you do with Sylvan? :)

By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Monday, August 27, 2001 - 09:52 am:

Merchant Scroll never goes because A) it's a blue card B) gives you a non-card disadvantage way to get ancestral (or stroke, or FoF). The most easy way to lose tempo in a control mirror is to mystical/vamp for something and then get it countered. Scroll (and demonic) has no such risk. Scroll also find mystical tutor (another reaosn to leave mystical in--it makes Scroll stronger) to grab the Yawgwill or other card (i.e. Balance) you need in an emergency.

If you play control mirror and are topdecking the whole game and the other guy is able to find exactly what he needs as soon as he senses a weakness in your counterwall who do you think is going to win?

Nameless is able to do it simply because, after siding he is no longer a control deck. Aggro decks don't want to tutor for things usually--they want to spend their mana and time playings stuff not tutor for stuff to play and then play it a turn after--it's a loss of tempo and gives your opponent extra time to find an answer to your threats.

You know how I know Merchant Scroll is the s--t? I know that every time, EVERY time I've ever drawn it I was hapy to see it. Seriously--if it ever came down to cutting Merchant Scroll or cutting Sylvan from my deck, SYLVAN would get the boot first. And we all know Sylvan ain't going anywhere.

Also, I can't believe people don't side out Masticore against control. *ducks* Yes, he's 4 damage a turn, but control mirrors are generally decided by cards and mana, not damage. You still have 2 Morphs and 3-4 Factories in OSE--that's plenty of offense.

Um...I do believe he's poking fun at me, but I think it's worth saying that Sylvan stays in. It is green (the off-off-off color), but generally wins if it resolves. The fact that it only costs 2 (easy to slip by) and isn't misdirectionable (or pyroable) is big. The only time I'll ever, ever side it out is against Sligh or something that hits me with lots of burn so I can't draw cards. Even then I only do it if I'm totally pressed for one more thing to remove. It stays in versus Stompy--stompy is very easy to sideboard against because so many god cards (i.e. Mindtwist) are so bad against them.


--Matt

By Big Blue on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 11:19 am:

I never side out a Tutor, and definitely not the Vamp one - just one acronym: LoA!

Usually I side out:
1 Abyss
1 StoP
1 Zorb
1 Keg (I play 1 main)
and in
4 REB

If I have won the first game and most of the time has gone I side a bit differently (Twister+Crypt for 2 Morphlings).

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 11:38 am:

Quote:

Merchant Scroll never goes because A) it's a blue card B) gives you a non-card disadvantage way to get ancestral (or stroke, or FoF). The most easy way to lose tempo in a control mirror is to mystical/vamp for something and then get it countered. Scroll (and demonic) has no such risk. Scroll also find mystical tutor (another reaosn to leave mystical in--it makes Scroll stronger) to grab the Yawgwill or other card (i.e. Balance) you need in an emergency.



Matt... why is it that we end up being on the same mental track, so Meridian and Az can diss us together? :)

By Spooktor Spocktor on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 12:45 am:

I would side out vampiric tutor but not mystical tutor. Mystical tutor is blue and can be chucked to force of will.

Against Keeper I side out

1 Abyss
1 Cop Red/Zuran Orb
1 Masticore
1 Timetwister
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Stroke of Genius (I hate misdirections)

for

4 Red elemental blast
2 Duress

If I am playing mono blue
I also take out

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Wasteland

for
2 Aura Fracture

Rakso I just tried out Merchant scroll recently cause Matt kept nagging me too and I think its the bomb. Much better then the monkey I nixed for it. Fetching Ancestral, FOF or a counter is good so that makes 3 of us :)

Spooktor Spocktor

By Stephen Michael Menendian (Smmenen) on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 12:19 pm:

I used to play Scroll -- it is much better than the monkey, but impulse is even better :). Particulary if you have 12 counters so you are virtually assured to snag one with it.

Stephen Menendian

By Cooberp, the Aura Fracturer of B2Bs (Cooberp) on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 12:25 pm:

Vinny -- no Miners? You absolutely reamed me with Miners the last time we played.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 03:15 pm:

Meridian and I were talking about Impulse over a few of the other things that gel your draws. Might actually be worth it.

By Spin13 (Spin13) on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 03:53 pm:

I decided that I didn't really like Merchant Scroll in my deck. For me, playing OSE, it was the number one choice to be sided out in most matchups. Often, it just didn't get a particular hoser, and its a slow way of getting counters, in which case, why not play more? Already playing 11 counters, I was thinking that I cut could my Zuran Orb (never really needed it) and my Merchant Scroll for 2 Impulse. Would 2 Impulse be better than just playing 2 more counters, or would the Impulses still be better because they can find anything? I'm not sold on Merchant Scroll, but I really dont' want to play just 1 Impulse... Any help?

-Eric

By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 07:14 am:

I can answer that question Cooberp. Vinny stopped using Miners because, we've all basically said, "Look mono-U is the problem deck and any mono-U hate is all decent Keeper hate so screw Keeper hate." Too, bad....Miners are amazing.

I just can't imagine a person not liking Merchant Scroll. It just doens't compute. I dunno, to each their own, but it really boggles me. I think it's really important for every type I control deck to have potential access to ancestral in the easly game. Besides a Scrolled for Ancestral is 3 for 1....a vamp/mysticaled for one is 2-1. It just tastes sweeter...

Rakso, when/where are Meridian/Az (Mirraz/Mirrors?) dissing us? What did they say? They said Sylvan sucks didn't they? *sniffle* Don't lie...I can handle it.

--Matt

By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 09:11 am:

"Matt... why is it that we end up being on the same mental track, so Meridian and Az can diss us together?"

What the HELL are you jabbering about this time? I use Merchant Scroll too!

Matt: Masticore stays in because OSE goes for a threat overload SB versus BBS: "Can you stop this? Well, how about this? This? HOW... ABOUT... THIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSS?!?!?"

By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 09:50 am:

I really don't know whats good to side out I would suppose tutors are bad to side out since they get you a card you need. I always have a problem deciding what to side out. Matt and Spooktor Spocktor's reasoning of Vampiric tutor not being blue seem to make sense. Vampiric does get morphling but in a control match up the key game winning cards are mindtwist, and yawgmoth's will so I guess you can lose vampiric. I wouldn't side out stroke unless I knew the opponent was playing more then 1 misdirection. Stroke for 4 or more if it gets cast is very good.

Miners aren't just keeper hate they beat random other decks too that pack all dual lands. Some silly combo decks, sliver decks, survival decks. I still play miners but there really hasn't been much monoblue presence where I am. There is this new guy who plays monoblue which is kinda scarry and the old singleton. new guy who plays monoblue thought I was playing the stompy deck I was playing for pickup games and mulliganed down to get a keg and a force of will in hand silly goose. beat him game 1 heheh.

so I agree that if it comes down to it vampiric goes but not mystical.

By Liam (Liam) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 11:52 am:

i find merchant scroll to be one of "those" cards. It's great, buit there are more optimal choices. To a much lesser degree it's like Sealed Fate, it would work wonders vs control but there's so much that does better.

i think Scroll and Vamp go out, but not mystical. An EoT mystical may as well read "untap up to one U source. Instead of drawing a card from the top of your library this turn, draw any instant or sorcery in your library". Vamp wouldn't go out either if it was blue.
-Liam

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 12:11 pm:

Quote:

Rakso, when/where are Meridian/Az (Mirraz/Mirrors?) dissing us? What did they say? They said Sylvan sucks didn't they? *sniffle* Don't lie...I can handle it.



Every time Az e-mails to 4-5 guys?


Quote:

There is this new guy who plays monoblue which is kinda scarry and the old singleton. new guy who plays monoblue thought I was playing the stompy deck I was playing for pickup games and mulliganed down to get a keg and a force of will in hand silly goose. beat him game 1 heheh.



Ever catch a Keeper player do that?

Now... ever catch a mono-U player do that?

Heh...

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