It's that time again. About every 6 months I bring this up. The faces are fresh and crowd is younger here at BD.
It's time to do it Wizards. It's time to fix type one. It's time to rebalance the field. It's time to restrict Berserk.
What would unrestricted Berserk do for Green? It would give it a full turn earlier in it's kill average. The fastest Green deck I have been privy too, undisrupted inflicts 20+ on an average of 3.6 turns with the current restricted list out of 100 games. And that was the best.
Berserk would lower that average to around 3.2 ish or a little lower. And so what I say. So what. That is UNDISRUPTED. If you didn't touch Kai Budde's trix deck it would win sooner than that.
So you're like, "how can he say so what?." I'll tell you why. Unrestricted Berserk would rebalance the field -- it would FORCE Keeper and OSE to have better spot removal (STP!!) and faster countermagic FOW and Leak.
The net result would be the weakening of X-lu and OSE and the rebirth of Keeper -- but a more creature concious one at that. Ask me how many stp's/ edicts I play right now and you'll see none.
Do the right thing. Unrestrict this -- oh and while your at it unrestrict Fork and Recall too.
Stephen Menendian
and i absolutely disagree for the reasons that i have posted about a million times. why not write directly to the DCI about this instead of starting yet-another-unrestrict-this-thread.
(and the freudian slip at the end of sentence seven is great.)
unrestricting berserk is retarded.
Yeah, OSE's Kegs totally suck vs Stompy, and Stompy should beat BBS already.
Stompy does NOT beat BBS. It's nearly hopeless even with 4 Rushwood Legate and Ghazban Ogres in place of Skyshroud Elite.
BBS can afford to be hyper-aggressive with its counters, especially if it has a keg. The pump spells end up being dead cards, because there is enough countermagic to keep creatures off the table for a turn or two.
Well at the least Stompy has a better chance at beating BBS than an OSE. OSE runs main deck masticores, kegs, disk, edicts, abyss, and mishras factorys. How exactly does stompy get around the little 3/3 bitches anyways? Tradeing a land for a creature is a pretty big advantage.
OSE is probebly stompys worst matchup, but I think a good stompy deck could beat BBS at 50-50 average.
Unrestricted Berserk is nasty. It then becomes far to consistant, and every once in awhile you get a broken hand of 2-3 berserks that is too difficult to stop.
Azhrei, if Keg is soooo effective against Stompy, not to mention OSE and BBS in general, than aren't these good reasons in themselves to unrestrict Berserk?
Stephen Menendian
erhm...raven:we have pump. I'd be trading a card for a mana source(or two if he blocks with 2 mishras, and I had Bounty/played it 8). THAT is pretty good
No, they're not. In a game based on math, exponential growth is the most dangerous and abusive mechanic available.
At least it's not factorials.
-Matt, bringing you only the finest hand-crafted silver linings since 1873.
Azhrei said
"In a game based on math, exponential growth is the most dangerous and abusive mechanic available. "
That's just silly. First of all you make a very broad statement, one that is so absolute as it would be difficult to defend under tough scrutiny.
Magic is heavy math, but it's not all math. And while exponential growth is very good, it does require multiples of a card limited to four per deck.
Also we are talking about increasing a creatures power -- it's not even CLOSE to as good as say, Necro, or even Bargain. This is type one after all. Just becuase a card is good doesn't mean it should be restricted.
Ok, Azhrei, then answer this question - if Berserk was unrestricte would you quit OSE and play a four Berserk deck? What portion of the metagame would become aggro Berserk decks? I don't think it's half as bad as first turn dark rit --> Necro.
Do you think unrestricted Berserk would dominate? If not, than I don't see why not unrestrict it.
Stephen Menendian
I don't think 4 Beserk decks would neccesarily dominate the way, say, a 4 Balance deck would. However, 4 Beserks is just well, for the thak of a better term, stupid. Beserk is the kind of card that is fun to have one, but is sick in mulitples. If it cost GGG or something, maybe we could get away with it, but as it is, a dumb hand where a Stompy deck could kill you first turn is just no fun. Then Stompy plays less like aggro and more like combo, and I just think 4 of them is too much. Actually, i've been thinking about it, and I think that the b/r list is fine where it is right now.
However (not to stray too far off topic) if I were the DCI, here's what I'd do. I'd allow *2* copies of: Black Vise, Beserk, and FoF. But, sadly, I'm not the DCI, (well, I could always play the Unglued card) and a 2 card restriction will probably never happen, but I figured I'd throw my opinon in anyway.
Um.. you DO realize why the card was restricted, no?
It combos with itself.
"I'll attack with my scryb sprite. I'll giant growth it, berserk it twice. Take 16."
That's very likely (but without the scryb of course).
If it were 4 zerks, thats 64 damage. That's slightly.. insane.
-Marcial-
just my cent and a half.
Erhm erhm.
It comboes with creatures, upmp and itself.
In your own example, you sued 1 creature, 1 pump spell, and 2 of itself.
Also, note that if i needed to have says 1 supporting cards and 2x a card to combo for the win, i'd rpefer to play with something where i'D ahve to have 1x2 different cards or even 1x3.
The odss are better that way. WAY better.
Note that morphling is a one card combo. No need to get two. Just have one, and it's easily protected for a 4 turn kill.
Also, ntoe that drawing 2x berserk even if you have 4 of them isn't that likely.
Marcial: a 4 card combo that requires a creature to be in play without summoning sickness better damn well kill your opponent, and if you are attempting to get all 4 berserks in your hand at once in addition, then it better damn well win you the entire match.
lol..same point. one has 7 lines, the other one two ^_^
sorry, i took my time writing that, so i didnt know you posted a reply before me.
and i said it better, so there. :p
dunno..I actually showed how not only it wasn't a good combo, but how it was bad compared to tohers 8p
well, arent you mr.smarty pants.
This is a tough one.. I'd like to playtest a deck with four of them to determine whether or not it can be unrestricted. If berzerk was unrestricted, we would probably see more STP, which would gain card advantage over stompy whenever they used rancor or berzerk. And I would like to see this stompy deck that kills on an average of turn 3.6
>>>Stompy does NOT beat BBS. It's nearly hopeless even with 4 Rushwood Legate and Ghazban Ogres in place of Skyshroud Elite.
I don't understand this. In playtesting my Stompy deck trashed BBS--and this is despite maindeck Elite, Lyricist, Herds, and no Rods or Legates. I really don't see how you could loose on a regular basis with Nullrods and Legates.
Honestly I htink this would just further weaken Keeper and increase BBS' lead. KEeper would run stps (more deadcards) and mono-U would continue to run 4 Kegs and just stock something silly like Hibernation in the side if stompy got popular.
--Matt
Like WOTC is gonna UNrestrict it,sheesh
Yep, I've been trashed by Stompy sometimes, and that was with Impulse and Kegs.
OK..
T-less-than-4 goldfish stompy(my older versions, basically).
12 Forest
1 Black
1 emerald
4 ESG
4 Quirion
4 Rogue
4 Hidden Herd
4 Sk. Elite
4 Sk. Ridgeback
4 Vine Dryad
1 Ghazban
4 GG
4 Rancor
4 Bounty
4 Briar Shield
1 Berserk
You could probably cut some forest for some more pump/ghazban(no, NO DOGS ^_^), but that would elad to slightly less consistency.
I say unrestrict it. With cards like rancor and gaea's might, berserk really isn't very unique anylonger. Unrestricting it would infact give green a fighting chance. Infact, I'd take it one step further. I'd unrestrict Regrowth. Regrowth is nolonger unique, so why not? Sure, 4x Gaea's Blessing, 4x Regrowth and 4x Berserk is broken, but isn't most any blue deck that pushes 4x FoF? Same difference the way I see it. Not that this response will make a dimes' difference, but hey, I have 23 Berserks to sell
how much for one, zen?
Your msot beat up one ^_^
I think the DCI should take a more LIBERTARIAN approach to the restricted list. This means that cards should not be restricted unless they are the KEY, and only the key, not a cog, in a dominant deck.
Evidence that the DCI is taking a more libertarian approach is that 1) the bannning of cards simply on the basis that they are too powerful, and 2) that they are ignoring the mindless call for the restriction of Fact or Fiction. I think Fact or Fiction could be restricted, but NOT for the reasons that have been given so far -- I have a very strong argument for it's restriction, but it differs totally from the arguments presented previous.
I think that restrict to two idea is stupid. In keeping with the libertarian themes, it's like allowing the govenment to tax away 20% of your money when it should be restricted to taking away 10%. Why give the DCI more leverage in taking away cards that DON'T really need to be restricted. Giving the DCI the ability to restrict to two cards will open the floodgates to help just any deck that they want to do well by taking away it's competitors.
Fork -- unrestrict it
Berserk - unrestrict
Recall - unrestrict
Notice that I make calls for no cards to be restricted (while I could make arguments for some to be, that doesn't mean I do), only unrestrictions.
I basically have three criteria for restrictions:
1) Too much mana too fast -- Moxen, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Academy, Channel
2) Too many cards too fast -- Necropotence, Ancestral Recall, Wheel, Twister,
3) Cards that take away 1 & 2 too fast -- Mind Twist, Strip Mine, Balance,
Notice none of my criteria WAS TOO MUCH POWER!!
Stephen Menendian
Fishonmyplane:
I didn't say the stompy deck wins on turn 3.6. I said that, non disrupted it would win on the mean if 3.6 turns!! Please PAY ATTENTION.
Four Berserks is insanely powerful, but analogous to why I don't think Clinton should not have been impeached, it just doesn't rise to the level of that needed for restriction.
Stephen Menendian
matt said
"I don't understand this. In playtesting my Stompy deck trashed BBS--and this is despite maindeck Elite, Lyricist, Herds, and no Rods or Legates. I really don't see how you could loose on a regular basis with Nullrods and Legates.
Honestly I htink this would just further weaken Keeper and increase BBS' lead. KEeper would run stps (more deadcards) and mono-U would continue to run 4 Kegs and just stock something silly like Hibernation in the side if stompy got popular. "
Matt, you're contradicting yourself here: you said that Stompy beats BBS, so with four berserks, wouldnt' stompy become a major player in the field? And if so, then how would that in anyway increace BBS' lead if it's losing to stompy pretty consistantly?
Stephen Menendian
Stompu with 4 berserks murders everything, with one exception. That exception is BBS (and maybe OSE). If BBS is played right it just wins this matchup - counter every damn thing and get kegs. Win. Rinse, wash. 4 berserks, BTW, gives an average kill of faster than turn 3.anything; it's just under three turns. turn 2 kills are not uncommon (it requires a good hand and a tuned deck - you must run lotus, both black and petal, to get that speed.)
probably ditch the quirions for something more aggro.
lol....Am I the only one who finds it funny that people are saying BBS is better than Keeper against an aggro deck? If stompy wants to get around tons of Powder kegs, it can afford to main deck Crumbles.....or, run a different mana curve with slightly more land (Including River Boas....Yum). A first turn River Boa is game 9 out of 10 times against BBS, the other time is when they have a FoW plus morphling in hand.
you forgot legates.
btw, null rod would be better for keg ^_^
"Fishonmyplane:
I didn't say the stompy deck wins on turn 3.6. I said that, non disrupted it would win on the mean if 3.6
turns!! Please PAY ATTENTION."
I know exactly what you meant, jackass. No need for shouting.
Can someone give me an example of a stompy deck winning on turn 3 with berserk restricted? And with it unrestricted? Thanks.
see above.
With bersekr unrestricted, lemme psot soemthing tomorrow afternoon ^_^
Probaly fullartifact XL.
Stompy winning turn 2:
turn 1: Rogue, sacc forest
turn 2: lotus, any pump berserk *2.
Or, more rationally:
turn one: ghazban, pitch esg for briar shield
turn 2: rancor, swing for 5
turn 3: forest, gg, berserk.
Note that that turn 3 kill requires doubles of only forest, and no restricted cards (bar berserk). It also has a large number of redundant cards (all the pump stuff, pretty much, and the critter). Not uncommon at all.
Also: this should all boil down to two simple rules, rather than three:
1) Win to fast - fast mana, fast cards or just dead opponent all do this.
2) Single cards which wreck any opponent, especially in multiples: - such as mindtwist and strip
Ok, its simple folks. First turn Wild Dogs, second turn GG-berserk-berserk=game. You can replace the Dogs with any 2 power for one mana critter and replace the GG with Briar Shield. All you have to do is draw an ESG, Mox, Petal along with a Berserk, will this happen every game? No, but it will happen WAY to often for my tastes, and third and fourth turn kills will become very easy. They restricted it for a reason you know.
erhm...
Most toher comboes have better odds than berserk.
I have to agree with sylvester about berserk speed vs other decks, especially combo.
I go off 2nd and third turn with pandeburst all the time, and my deck is control-combo- not search-combo. Often it takes longer, but I still think on average im at least as fast as a powered red/green berserk deck, and probably more reliable.
Im not comparing either of these decks to academy or necro-trix, but berserk would probably not unsettle the environment too much. On the other hand, it would probably raise the price of berserks a lot.
Two questions:
Smmnenen: According to your guidelines you wouldn´t restrict Y.Will? MoM? Dream Halls? Tutors? Doomsday? Regrowth? Black Vise?
To all the Stompy players: Why does no Stompy include the one Berzerk allowed?
One statement:
Berzerk is broken, period. You say don´t restrict just because it´s powerful? I say don´t unrestrict just because it´s green or just because creatures (-strategy) are inferior to control (-strategy). You don´t unrestrict Balance just because it´s the only white restricted card, don´t you? Perhaps Berzerk would level the field a bit. But it can only do it if it is broken. That means you´ll have to play it or screw it. Remembers me of the Urza era when green sucked beyond believe. Then they printed Rancor, Cradle and less than 8 other cards and green was da bomb. Due to this few cards only. Same goes for unrestricting Vise. It would be a stupid move, replacing Superman-season with Vise Age II.
Brokenness is irrelevant if the field is balanced and interactive.
1 berserk isn't reliable enough.
And, it is only good in the opening hand+frist 1 or 2 turns.
Puschkin, please see criteria number four for MOM, will, tutors, etc. But, yes, this would mean I would unrestrict Vise because it doesn't fall in my four criteria.
By the way - if you could play four Wills, would you? Even if I was playing Mono black I don't think I would add one above 3, in Keeper maybe I would play two -- but definately not 3. Just because a card is sickingly broken doesn't mean it warrants four automatically.
Fishonmyplane:
"I know exactly what you meant. No need for shouting. "
If you knew what I meant than why did you ask me that?
Stephen Menendian
Sylvester:
What? All that matters are the first few turns!? If you draw it - great, if you don´t - play as normal!
Smmenen:
Sorry, you posted no fourth criteria.
No, I wouldn´t play four Wills. Didn´t said said. But I would play 2-3. Given that Will essentially wins the game most times it resolves this is not what we want. And, if unrestricted, you could build a deck centered around Will and play 4.
"If you knew what I meant than why did you ask me that?"
Because I wanted to see the deck. I still think a turn 3.6 average is a little too optimistic.
I posted it in the Unrestriction thread:
4) Cards that get other cards that apply into criteria 1,2, and 3 -- these cards are tutors, and recursion such as Will and Regrowth.
Stephen Menendian