Off Topic - ALL NEW YORK BD REGULARS REQUESTED TO REPORT IN NOW (MATT D'AVANZO, FOR ONCE WE CARE ABOUT YOU)

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Archived threads of the Beyond Dominia Type I Mill: Off Topic - ALL NEW YORK BD REGULARS REQUESTED TO REPORT IN NOW (MATT D'AVANZO, FOR ONCE WE CARE ABOUT YOU)

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By Stephen Michael Menendian (Smmenen) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:22 am:

The South World Trade Center building was hit with a 747 Jumbo Jet --- and the other building was hit with another plane and has callapsed.

The Pentagon has been attacked with two distinct explosions. The main government buildings are being evacuated -- and so is the Sears Tower in Chicago.

This is the 21st Century,, 10:23 am EST.


Stephen Menendian


By Stephen Michael Menendian (Smmenen) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:39 am:

Gentlemen, the World Trade Center is gone. I'm crying right now.

Stephen Menendian


By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:51 am:

Ai ya, those terrorist bastards, both towers collapsed who knows how many died, I don't wanna think about it. I'm crying too I have friends who work down at WTC and Wall street I hope they are ok I haven't heard from any of them. I hope they are ok. Well at least I'm ok.

Mako Satou


By Stephen Michael Menendian (Smmenen) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:02 am:

Good to hear from you Mako -- I'm glad you're ok -- please, if you're from NYC or Wash -- let us know how you are. JP -- I know you're from NYC -- we are praying for you and you're family.

Stephen Menendian


By Natural Born Masta, The enchantress PiMp on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:02 am:

I came here to say he same thing. I live in Canada and I'm scared out of my mind. Thinkin of this makes me want to cry.

Whoa, this is serious.... I'm shaking... Lets hope this wont happen again.

My condolences to all that lost their lives today in those terrorist attacks. Some people are just really sick.

-Natural Born Masta-


By SliverKing on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:17 am:

hope wont stop anything. This was an act of war on par with Pearl Harbor and anything less than a full military response will only provoke more of them. The time for proportional responses,half measures, and diplomacy is over.


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:18 am:

No need to worry about me everyone--I live on Long Island


By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:23 am:

My sympathies go out to all in new York and surrounding area.

Has anymore been heard about the one that crashed in pittsburg area, or the suspected one still in the air??.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:24 am:

SliverKing: If you guys plan to nuke anyone, kindly make sure you hit the right guys, though. That attitude doesn't help any. My city was burned to the ground after the Americans liberated it from the Japs, so please don't talk about war right now.


By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:28 am:

Don't worry, I dont think sliverking has the authority to authorize a nuclear launch.

But these next few days are going to get very divisive and crazy until we get a good idea who did this.


By Stephen Michael Menendian (Smmenen) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:29 am:

What about Matt and Robb?? Who else lives in NYC?

Stephen Menendian`


By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:33 am:

Will ,the walking dude as well I think.


By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:41 am:

I don't live in the city but my office is in the city and I got a problem tonight if I can't go home cause they not letting anyone in and out. I guess I could stay in my office. Not a good idea cause I don't have a change of clothes but I could just stay here I guess. I am like so like out of it right now. Don't wanna think of my friends right now I hope they are all ok doing what I can to keep my mind off that. :( waaaaaaah
this ain't fair.

Mako Satou


By LordLamneth on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:46 am:

LordLamneth here, BDominia wallflower, from East Rutherford, New Jersey, USA:

From what I've heard, an unknown amount of planes were hijacked from Massachusetts, 2 were crashed into the Towers, and from what I understand, 2 are still unaccounted for. I don't know if this is true or not, but I head that 2 planes were stolen from Teterboro Aiport not long ago. I've also heard that there are riots in the streets of Paterson, New Jersey, against people of Arabic background, I've also heard that a hotel in NYC has been bombed (unconfirmed), and God only knows what the hell else is gonna happen.

My beautiful home city has been attacked, and New Jersey is in a state of emergency.

LordLamneth, from East Rutherford, New Jersey, about 10-15 minutes away from what used to be a complete New York City.


By Nix (Nix) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:38 pm:

im not from newyork, but i was sitting in chemistry when my teacher broke down to tell us about it. once again, my condolances go out to anyone that may have been near this bs.

i do have confidence in GWB's ability to retaliate, and i hope to god that he does.


By Dr. Hannibal Lecter on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:55 pm:

i am from south of pittsburgh... a 757 crashed in somerset county killing all 35 on board... flight 175 from pittsburgh to nellis VA has reportedly crashed with somewhere near 65 on board... i havent heard of anymore flights yet unresponsive... the crash in somerset is minutes from my home... my prayers go out to everyone in these united states... but please, do not direct hostilities at our arab neighbors here in the states... this was an act perpetrated by a miniscule number of fucking bastards... good day


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:06 pm:

CooberP is also from NYC, but he's in Boston right now. My uncle works on Wall Street, but he's OK.

They cancelled class today.

It is time to act like Israel. Bomb everything, assassinate leaders, and show them not to fuck with the United States.


By Big Blue on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:15 pm:

I just read it and I did not believe it at first! That's horrible!

I cannot even imagine how you guys must feel right now, so I don't know what to say, except wishing you, your friends and your families good luck.

And its also sad that there are riots against Arabs in the street - I hope people do not overreact.

Unfortunately, I do not share the confidence in GWB - I just hope the people controlling him do not plan to play war games now...

@SilverKing: You know, it is not unlikely that Pearl Harbour was sacrificed on purpose (that's actually one of the more realistic conspiracy theories), because it provided an excellent opportunity to enter the war. So... Against whom would you like to respond military? If the terrorists were on the plane they are likely to be dead. And saying "diplomacy is over" is a very stupid thing, although I can quite understand that you react emotional to these terroristic acts. But these kind of emotions have lead to 2 great Wars in the last century and I really hope they have no bigger successor.


By Nikodemus (Nikodemus) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:20 pm:

Let's just make sure we get the RIGHT bastards. I'm all in favor of an overwhelming response ... but I want to send the love letters to the right address.

Also, I too have heard some rather nasty comments regarding residents of arabic and palestinian decent. Go calmly folks, these people are most likely not involved, and I fear for my friends in those communities.


By Dante (Dante) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:38 pm:

The even sadder part is that ABC was showing live feeds from the West Bank (palestinian territory) showing people's reaction to the news. People were CHEERING, small children like 6-8 years old were giving the victory sign....I wonder if they actually realized that thousands of non-military people just died.

What you have to wonder is who orchestrated all of this....it's probably difficult enough to highjack one plane, but 4 at the same time..a small radical group might not have the people or savvy to pull that off.

Bill


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:43 pm:

dante: those people are surpressed, manipulated and are used to civilians dying. you can't compare them to your country, so don't hate them, please.


By SliverKing on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:58 pm:

Its probably a good thing I dont have the authority, because Palistine and Afganistan would be smoldering craters unable to support life for the rest of time if I did. I know we dont full information on who did this, but when we do I dont think diplomacy or limited strikes are teh answer. All that will do is force these bastards to hide for a while and then come right back and strike again. The response needs to be overwhelming, so much so that the rest of the world cringes and says we went to far. SO awful that no one ever thinks of attacking us again. I know we've had 2 world wars already, but if it takes another one to bring an end to hijacked planes used as weapons against innocent civilians then so be it.

on a lighter note, I'm very relieved to hear that you NY guys are ok


By potatofloss on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:03 pm:

Yeah I was in English class when we heard the news. I live in Queens New York, which is 15 minutes from the World Trade Center and this scared the crap out of me. I can see the smoke from my house.


By Big Blue on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:05 pm:

@dante: And definitely not all people in Palestina were cheering. Many of them are as shocked as we are.

The question is: Cui bono?

Definitely NOT palestina - the chances of peace in Israel are now even lower than before (and that says something, in view of the fact that they were not high under Sharon even before).

So you have to find other victims for a conspiracy theory - mad terrorists? Bin Laden? weapon industry? american patriots?

But lets save analysis for a different occasion, when we all have some distance from what happened today. Because right now statements tend to appear radical to outsiders and cynical to insiders.

Raoul is right, please don't project your understandable emotions on certain people - till now nothing is known about the origin of todays incidents.

My cousin lives in NY, BTW.


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:11 pm:

I can't believe I forgot about this before:

Matt is most likely OK. He lives in Queens, NOT Manhattan.


By Big Blue on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:17 pm:

Oh, ok. Thanx JP - that clarifies already half of my question. And Legend?


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:23 pm:

Okay, why always jump to nukes? Shit IS going to go down, but it's going to be an a less grandiose scale-- there is going to be a LOT of killing when this is over, but it doesn't automatically have to be done with atomic weapons. Bullets still work.


By Big Blue on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:25 pm:

Well, ok.

Still haven't heard of my cousin, though :(

Good night then - I hope you can sleep (I know, it's too early - but I'm going to bed soon)


By SliverKing on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:31 pm:

Not to sound callous, but none of the nuclear powers are involved... so whoever we choose to nuke is squarely out of luck. It will not start WW3. And quite frankly I'm not talking about an Eye for an Eye, I'm talking about a Life for an Eye. Wars arent decided by using equal force or equivelent measures. The United States of America is under attack and the only choices that make sense are full and overwhelming response, or to surrender and remove ourselves from the world stage. Anything else is just half-assed.


By White Knight (White_Knight) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:37 pm:

I hope your cousin is fine Big Blue...
*hug*


By Dante (Dante) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:38 pm:

Raoul said "dante: those people are surpressed, manipulated and are used to civilians dying. you can't compare them to your country, so don't hate them, please"

That's why I was wondering if they got the whole story...or just manipulated parts of it.

on another note, just because they may be used to people dying or they are suppressed doesn't make it right to be happy that innocents died. It's not about hate (or it shouldn't be anyway). If it becomes about hate and anger on the US's part, then even worse things will happen.

Big Blue - I understand that...I guess what I left out of the first post was why would ABC choose to show that, knowing that it will stir the anger in the USA even more. Calm sense of purpose is called for, not anger. Poor taste is the the least of what we could call it...


By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:46 pm:

That may be the dumbest thing I ever heard.


a) "none of the nuclear powers are involved"

- if you know this, you know more than the us government does at this time. Afghanistan is the nation most closely associated and while it does not have a confirmed nuclear arsenal it may have one. Certainly several neighboring nations do. If you nuke a small country and the fallout affects neighbours, you could inadvertantly provoke a nuclear attack on your own country.

b) "And quite frankly I'm not talking about an Eye for an Eye, I'm talking about a Life for an Eye"

- okay ..................... I really hope you mean a life for a life

c) "The United States of America is under attack and the only choices that make sense are full and overwhelming response, or to surrender and remove ourselves from the world stage. Anything else is just half-assed. "

If an army were to declare war and perform a deliberate attack , I suppose you could argue that such were your options, but as of now you DONT EVEN KNOW WHO DID IT. It was almost certainly not the direct action of a governmental body, so even if you do want an extreme reaction you would be attacking a country you couldnt even be sure was involved. Such an act would make you even more despicable than the people who did this.


Fine, your mad, and you want someone to pay. Chances are someone will. Lets not talk nukes or wars here, however. If you truly want to be a bastion of freedom and civilization, that means not leaping to wild conclusions or wallowing in the muck with your enemies. I am sure the eventual response ought to be sufficienty brutal to satisfy your need for vengeance, but please accept that some of us dont consider that a good thing.


By Will, the walking dude on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:51 pm:

Hi all. I'm in college in Mass and my family is out of town so we are ok.


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:56 pm:

And CooberP told me his family is OK.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:08 pm:

1) Why bother with nukes when saturation bombing does the same thing without half the dangers?

2) No, a life for an eye was intended-- striking back with maximum force for lesser transgressions.

3) The leaders are where to hit, IMO (and my opinion means nothing)-- civilians don't need to be involved.


By Littlesaltz (Saltz) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:12 pm:

Ok, I'm watching CNN, and here's what is confirmed right now (3:01 EST). Two hi-jacked planes hit the World Trade Center towers, and both have collapsed. At least 650 "walking injured" have been removed from Manhatten.

A third hi-jacked plane has crashed into the Pentagon; for our foreign friends who may not know, the center of American military operations. it basically destroyed fifth of the building or so...it's a pentagon with a courtyard in the middle. I think the fire is still being fought as I write.

A fourth plane crashed outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and it is unclear as to whether it was hi-jacked or not.

I have heard nothing about any unaccounted planes.

A London-based Arab newpaper said that it recieved letters from Ben-Laden threatening to do something like this, but didn't take them seriously. No one knows if they actually did recieve such letters.

F-16s are ready in New Jersey, Washington, and the New York area, and they are currently patroling the Pentagon area.

I live in Philadelphia, and all train lines running through 30th St. Station (big station) are not running. The Liberty Bell complex is closed, as are some malls.

I think we can't make an attack when we don't know who we are attacking. And Nuking is a bad idea in general.

Saltz


By Rico Suave on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:17 pm:

The plane down near Pittsburgh was supposedly headed for the White House/Capitol. Apparently the terrorist flying it screwed up.

What's really freaky was seeing the second plane hit live...


By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:21 pm:

"2) No, a life for an eye was intended-- striking back with maximum force for lesser transgressions."


The world will support you in seeking justice, not indulging in bloodlust to satisfy your anger. The US will do a it pleases , but having an army doesnt make you right. Someone should be held accountable for this and someone should die. But when you talk life for an eye when the eye part is anywhere from 1-20 thousand lives, you are talking about being more evil than any of the men involved in this attack. It is natural to be angry, and to want a strong response, but another country didnt plan this. Even if a foreign goverment were involved, they are the people least likely to be affected by an american retaliation.


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:24 pm:

Geeze, it's pretty sad to use planes full of businessmen (the likely travelers that time of the morning) to seek blood.

I hope the New York, DC and Pennsylvania (There, I spelled it out once, Rakso) gang here is alright. I live in PA but quite a long way from Somerset County.

I don't mean to spread undue romors (so don't go tell 80 people) but a bunch of people in my choir class (this was an hour after I had last seen anything on TV) said that SIX planes are still unaccounted for. That scares me a bit.....


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:34 pm:

But, Nevyn, for millenia having an army and the political will to use it made you right. It's only over the last two centuries or so that the idea that might doesn't determine who is right has come about.

While I don't exactly want to nuke more than one city (I wouldn't really mind denting one of our bombs in such a way), you have to remember that our conventional superiority is such that it's about the equivalent of a nuke.

And Azhrei, saturation bombing costs more bomber crews and bombers. If you're looking to flatten places, show up with a Stealth or two and plaster single buildings. Rapier thrust rather than shotgun blast.


By JPBronsin on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:47 pm:

Like all of you, I feel just as terrible. I have relatives in New York that coudl've easily been affected by this . . . frankly, I'm horrified. It's going to be crazy. Bush is pro-military so I think we'll actually see some good come out of him.

Does anyone know of any suspects? If they are Americans (which I doubt), it'll be sad to see America blame this incident on movies and media and even things like Magic.


By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:02 pm:

But the whole reason that the government talks about holding other governments responsible is that it honestly doesnt know where to start in terms of hunting terrorists. Whether the attackers are supported by friendly governments or not, they will be very hard to find and bring to justice. It's just easier to point a finger and press a button.


And dont kid yourself, 'might is right' is still the way of the world. Only the nature of the might has somewhat changed.


By Begbie on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:03 pm:

Just checking in. Saw the first plane go overhead at 8:45. Sick shit.


By Zherbus (Zherbus) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:06 pm:

Stephen Menendian, you beat me to my post. Although this post was originally designed to make sure our friends here at BD are all ok, its gotten malignant. Lets not start a discussion about war etc, and if someone posts something out of rage or sadness(which we are all feeling) Let it go. I dont think a pissing contest about war and whats right and wrong is what we need right now.


Hoping everyone is ok,

Zherbus


By Max, the Mana Drainer (Max) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:18 pm:

I live in Italy but I was shocked by this criminal action. I am really worried for the people who live in the New York area. I feel really sad. I am praying for the victims and for their families.
The point is: we must get those crazy bastards, but the Eye for an Eye mentality will lead us to WW3. This is not Eye for an Eye, this is Evil for Evil: nuking one city making other innocent die is wrong as well. On the other hand those fucking bastards MUST pay for their action or terrorists will do whatever they like. It is a very complicated situation.
And I cannot understand people who are happy of this. It's not human to be happy for thousands of innocent victims.

Max


By JBayDragon (Jbaydragon) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:26 pm:

I live in Jersey City, right next to manhattan. I didn't get hurt, but school is cancelled for tomorrow. Hope everyone is alright. This is a tragic, horrible happening, and there had never been anything as severe as this. Pray for everyone. God has a reason.

Peace,
JBay


By MetaMage on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:30 pm:

My first post didn't show up :(

One of the flights that crashed into the WTC was the same flight I take every year to LA. Same time, same number!

A person in a high school in the next town over got called by one of the people aboard. He was a friend from Otis AFB that was going to LA to teach a military flight school. He just kept saying that everything would be OK...and then the line went dead as the plane crashed. :(

Otis AFB near here scrambled a bunch of F-15's that are now flying overhead and over New York City. Every high rise in Boston has been evacuated. It feels like a state of war over here.


The annoying X10 adds have also changed to support the Red cross and to give donations. Many companies that send me email for their software are demanding war.


By MetaMage on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:36 pm:

Also, just a fifth of the above ground portion of the Pentagon is destroyed. It is reported to go at least 15 stories under (and up to 30 depending on the source). Just like many of the command posts in Colorado.


By Psycho, the Horned God (Psycho) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:14 pm:

I know this may sound very rude or strange but they're also some WESTERN people (I'm from Belgium) who feel that the US had this coming. A LOT of my friends and me hate the things America stands for (not where it should stand for). Of course it is really horrible al those innocent people died but the same was done by the US in the past.
I don't want a big argument about this or want to accuse people on this site but the opinion on America in my "neighboorhood" is this: It's just an imprialistic state that tries to intervene everywhere under the disguise of "peacekeeping. Often me and my friends have protested against this but we just got beaten up by the police. Many of us see the US as an very hypocritic, almost fascistic state (see the death penalty) and Bush as the new Hitler (in a lot of pubs where I go out they've got posters of Bush with the words: "Wanted dead or alive".

Again, I want to say I think it's horrible innocent have died but now you know how some Western people think about America (I know this isn'true for the majority of the Belgian people)

And Sliverking: your reaction makes me sick, I'm sorry. I think that's typical American: "Just nuke them because we're the BIG Super US" Just disgusting.


By CooberP, the Aura Fracturer of B2Bs (Cooberp) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:16 pm:

My family, and everyone I know directly, is OK. But stories are already trickling in...
This is the single most awful thing that has occurred in my lifetime.


By JPBronsin on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:45 pm:

Psycho, the Horned God --

I agree with what you're saying, maybe not emotionally, but logically. I'm an American citizen and I feel like we had this coming for a very long time. Under the Clinton administration, we managed to keep our foreign relationships civil for the most part, but Bush is considered the "bully" by many other countries, even by Americans.

I just wish this incident didn't involve people. Our problems with other countries could've been solved and this tragedy could've been averted if we had been "nicer" with our policies. I don't think any of us has seen any major terrorist bombings while Clinton was President.

The people in charge of this act have the manpower and probably always had the manpower to carry out such an enormous act of terrorism . . . all they needed was a reason. I shouldn't blame this on Bush or our own country, but like I said, this is the plain and simple truth -- we had it coming. Think of other countries in other parts of the world that have suffered countless deaths because of American intervention . . . just because we're a big super power doesn't make us any safer than them. Look at the events today and it shows how vulerable and helpless we really are.

I feel terrible for the friends and families of this horrible tragedy. I have family in New York as well, and they're currently unaccounted for. I just pray that they're all right. We will all mourn, but it is our actions after we recover that will determine our fate as a country. As cliche as this sounds, retaliating with war and bombs and all that won't help anything. I could be wrong, but I feel as though many of you are young in this discussion board, perhaps still in school, and to have a justice mentality is of course the immediate reaction. Be careful, because you don't know what you're saying . . . you might be at war one day and realize that fighting back, even for your own country, is completely not worth it. My father is a Vietnam War veteran, and he tells me this every other day.

Again, I'm sorry for everyone, and I offer no easy solutions . . . just be careful about your actions, because heated emotions lead to catastrophes like this one and continue to perpetuate them.


By Unbreakable on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:45 pm:

I'm from Oregon, Ohio and everything here is fine but I would still like to offer my condolences for anyone in the NYC or DC areas. I think that these terrorists attacks are the single most disgusting thing that has ever happened. God bless.


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:54 pm:

Psycho, being a political conservative, I could get really ugly. But I won't. We may be 'the Big Super US' to most of the rest of the world, but how many people do you think deserve to die for the United States' actions? Justice should be served, as no country deserves this.

A third building has collapsed in New York City, btw. We should all remember who really matters here... the innocents that this happened to. Retribution will be savage, but that is in the future. I urge all who can to donate blood in response to this tragedy.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:56 pm:

Same here.

It definitely is very sad that civilians died today in tens of thousands.

Howver, the actions, on a more abstract level are something that we somewhat celebrated at school(Canada). There ARE reasons for this act of terrorism, let's not forget that.

Also, note that none of the strikes were on completely randomly chosen sites! The WTC,the Pentagon, Camp David, etc...Except for that summerset county. WTH IS in there?

They were all aimed at places that would not only do spycholigical damages, but also probably maim the state's economy.

The operation itself was beautifullky orchestrated.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise if this attack weren't qualified as terrorism, but as a aprt of some war in the relatively near future....

I wish you luck, and i think that Canada will be more or less ok with welcoming you here.


By Sssmwc (Sssmwc) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:56 pm:

What needs to happen? Retribution, simple as that by what ever means necessary. This easily could ignite a major conflageration depending on how it goes but there has never been peace in the Middle East and there never will be. Only the naive mind believes otherwise.

Anyone who thinks "the US had it coming" clearly doesn't understand the devestation involved when thousands are destroyed. I don't think anyone on this (seemingly) insignificant board does.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:58 pm:

....
Kirdape:Hasn't it ever occured to you that the same question about innocent could be asked to the States about several of their actions?

Surgical strikes, clean wars, etc are a fantasy.

Stop playing with yourself!


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:09 pm:

ss:PLEASE!!!

There are several levels on which to see this event. Please get away from the primary one(people died...yes it is infinitely sad, but get over it...), and try to see it on other levels.

IE, get more rational(ugh..hate that word)


By Nikodemus (Nikodemus) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:09 pm:

Psycho: If your opinion is that of the majority of your countrymen, I have only this to say: It can't always have been so, twice in this century Belgium would have ceased to exist had the US not gotten involved in a EUROPEAN conflict. Your nation was certainly glad to accept our help in maintaining the peace in Europe throughout the Cold War. Remember that our government can change dramaticaly in the space of 4 years and just blame the leader, not the nation. If the US truly does take this incident as a reason to remove itself from the world stage, then Belgium, France and the UK will have to handle the next European War on their own. We will have had enough and be thumbing our noses just as you are now.

As for Sliverking's statements and your reactions: If a bomb is dropped on Brussels, killing or wounding 50,000 people, what would you like your government to do about it? Verbally condemn it? Or shoot back?

Americans are upset right now, with cause. This was an act of war, against civilian targets. Even if the perpetrators and planners are not themselves leaders of sovereign nations, it is still and act of war and must be treated as such.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:17 pm:

erhm....

Past is past ok? Things change. Don't you think that the US had nothing to gain by going to war? Think the US actually made a very big aprt of the forces?

The way america in general acted in the last decades isn't too good for your PR.


By Andrew, the Sphinx Slayer (Andrew) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:19 pm:

JP, Matt, everyone: My heart goes out to all you guys, for all the heart rending horror that happened. I hope you didn't loose any close friends in this horrific act of terror.

That's all that can be said right now.


By JPBronsin on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:26 pm:

Well just because I think "we had it coming" doesn't mean we deserve this. It was bound to happen -- it doesn't mean that it should. And of course there's no peace over there; I don't think there ever will be. We could all discuss the political and personal issues of this thing forever, but as long as we're all alive and unharmed and typing on this board, none of us really will understand the devastation . . . we can only hope to learn from it.

For now, giving blood is the best thing we can do. We can talk about war and retribution and what's right and wrong and whatever, but none of us as individuals has any influence on what the country decides. If we decide to go to war, we'll have to go whether we want to or not. If we decide to bomb some city, we'll have to deal with the results whether we want to or not. We can argue all day but it doesn't change anything. Especially not for those who lost their lives.

I'm not sure why people would celebrate such a thing, but I can see how we had it coming. Everyone will see, maybe not now, but eventually, the US will grow stronger and people will grow together because of this. Nationalism will be crazy here, and people will have a cause to fight over. After we heal, the US is going to have a field day. Look at how the media's swallowing this up . . . imagine how much the military will love it if it all goes their way. Personally, I think some of us Americans been waiting for an event like this. Now we have a reason to unite, as sick and disgusting as that reason might be. It's sad, but it's the truth.

Anyway, this will be my last post in here. I'm sorry if I offended anybody, but we're all entitled to our opinions as different and as insignificant as they might be. I really think that in a few days, this will all be over and settled. If not, then a lot more people are going to die.


By Robb on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:28 pm:

I thought that this post was to spread a feeling of compassion, caring and brotherhood amongst members of BD all over the world. After reading posts by Psycho, "The horned god" and later by hyper emotion monster (sylvester) I am almost ashamed to be a part of this community. My name is Robb and I am a 34 year old living in New York City. I assume that there are a number of really young folks here as evidenced by a couple posts. To even begin to say that ANYONE "had this coming" before the bodies of thousands of innocents are dug from the rubble is unforgiveable. I am embarrassed to even be a part of a group (BD) that would say this hours after we have had friends and loved ones blown to bloody shreds while at work.
And HYper Emotion Monster...your name is at least athird correct. To use the word "beautiful" to describe this act of horror is beneath contempt. Save those thoughts for later when we can view this event without the smoking ruins of thousands of lives right here in our midst. And thank you for letting us know that " you think Canada will be more or less ok with welcoming us here." How noble and generous of you. This is exactly the level of sympathy what the victims' families really want to hear right now.
Choose your words with some care and feeling for others. This is the time for support and Psycho, you make me ill inside.
The rest of ya'll on BD, Thanks for looking out for each other. Thanks for asking Steven...I'm trying to find Matt, now.
Robb


By The Undertaker, the Mighty Phoenom (Undertaker) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:32 pm:

To all the people who lives in the New York Area: I have seen today my greatest fear of all, and LIVE. Cant express the sadness, dizziness and soul pain I had this morning when I came out of the bathroom and turned on the TV. Is this why live in society? A great hug from Chile, a distant country that had its own reason to hate Sept. 11th, and now has more important things to look at. Take care of the people, children specially, who are still alive. Its just horrible. Rebuild your city, but more important, rebuild your future, dont nuke it.


By upror on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:39 pm:

I don't live in NY, but nevertheless I'd like to offer my condolences to anyone affected by this tragedy.


By Raven (Raven) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:46 pm:

Ok, to clear up some things.

The main suspect is a Terrorist Leader in Afghanistan (can't spell). Although he is denying (who wouldn't?) these acusations. He is the number 1 suspect for the leader of this act.

I don't think "nukeing" is an answer to anything, if we nuke, then we are not any better than the faggots who attacked us.

And stateing that "America had it comming" is a horrible, horrible thing to say. I can't believe anyone in the world would say that. That is just as bad as saying "The Jew's deserved what they got in WW2". This is very Raceist and ignorant. You obviously have no idea how much lives were lost. People were raining, literally. There were ton's of bodies falling from the sky to avoid burning to death. I think the toll will reach well over 2,000 dead. And this is not military personelle, these are civillians for crists sakes.

The US never deliberatly attacks innocent civilians, and to say that ANY country in the world would of had this comming is just a very very stupid thing to say. I sure hope you didn't post in the registration thread Psyco.

What need's to be done is we need tighter security on our airlines, and now the US is going to completly regect any form of immigration to the US from anywere. Now they will close there borders and it will be impossible to come to the US.

I don't think a full scale war is needed (mainly because I don't want to get drafted), and because an entire race of people, or an entire country should not be punished for a few actions of some stupid terrorists. The terrorists groups will now be totally hunted down, and exterminated. And for once the US has good cause to go into foreign countrys to terminate terrorists.

I feel for everyone in the NY area, and jumping to concluseions never lead to anything. And stateing that "we had it comming" is very very stupid. Think before you speak or just don't speak.

@ Rakso, burning down a village building and killing 2,000+ civilians are two totally different things all together.


By TracerBullet on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:03 pm:

Thank you Raven for sparing me the anger.....That was a despicable act that no person on earth should "have coming". Has anybody talked to Matt?


By fl!p on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:12 pm:

first of all, my colandences to anyone affected by this tragedy as well.

@ raven: I find it interesting that you can use the word faggot while talking about racism and ignorance. And Rakso said his city was burned down not a village building, I'm sure someone's loved ones were lost there too, so don't be such an ass!


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:35 pm:

as i said, it happened.

People died... People die every day,b ut this one is especially shocking.

However, let's not get too emotional, unlike what your current adminitstration seems to want.

If they get you all emotional and screaming for revenge/in a state of shock, they'll get to do the H*ll they want VS whoever they choose to design as guilty.


By Neth on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:36 pm:

Hey Psycho, I guess you really are, eh? The US does keep peace, and saves alot of lives doing so.

And thinking of the US as a facist state and Bush as the new Hitler is just lunacy. The US is probably one of the most free countries around, and Bush certainly hasn't resorted to genocided and invading Poland to enforce his political opinion. The death penalty is not an American invention, just so you know. American just has more reason to use it than other countries, probably because cops simply kill criminals in other countries, instead of just bringing them to trial.

It is people like you that make me wonder why the US still bothers dealing with other countries. Get your facts straight. Sheesh.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:47 pm:

Good. I *hope* the US takes this opportunity to eliminate terrorists. So what if they didn't do *this*? They're in need of mother earth's cold embrace anyway.

If you want to complain about US involvement in foreign nations, then I guess genocide is okay with you and civil rights aren't, am I right? "Had it coming"-- FUCK YOU.


By Raven (Raven) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:48 pm:

@ Fl!p: I find it interesting that you can appear to speak so refined yet you resort to calling someone an ass. This is hardly a time for name calling, this is a horrible tradgedy and you are mocking it by resorting to immature posts. Please do not take this lightly just because you do not live in the US, or because you have no national pride.

Once again my deepest sympathys for all those effected by this tragedy. If I lived in the NY area, I would volunteer to help those ingured.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:49 pm:

Also do note that there actually WERE civilians who died int he several wars in which the states participated. I'm sure americans didn't cheer when spomething good for their side happened, right?

Bin Ladden, btw. Trained by the CIA.

Also, how can you compare dearths and say that this one evnt was worse bc more died? People died. period!


By Sssmwc (Sssmwc) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:58 pm:

Hyper, you aren't worth words.

Glad to hear everyone in the NYC area on here is ok as far as we know.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:01 pm:

thank you....

jsut TRY to see the other side of this event.

It's infinitely sad, but don't go around pointing at the people cheering without trying to understand, etc.


By actionmandeluxe on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:15 pm:

Okay, a few things. Psycho was right in bringing his opinions up, even if it wasn't probably the right way of doing it. The Palestinian rejoice is mostly due to their low approval of the US because of our involvement in siding with Israel over the West Bank and other related disputes there. That hatred for us has been there, and in most Palestinian eyes this is a victory.
Osama Bin Ladin should be linked with this, and the thing about an Arab newspaper warning this was viewed to minorly. It was reported to Reuters office in London by an Arab contact of Bin Ladin. That same contact is how we get almost *all* information that goes to press from Bin Ladin. If you are unfamiliar with Reuters, that's where everyone else gets their news. When you read abcnews.com, and Reuters is in parenthesis, that's because they got it there. Reuters isn't a small source, and is the most reliable news source. Yes, that was accurate though, Bin Ladin warned of this threat about 3 weeks ago, and no attention was paid, just like in the past to what he's said. It's sad.
I can agree with some part of every argument her in some way, but I am saddened by any loss of life whatsoever, and my prayers go out to all those victims and their families, along with every other person who is impacted, and that's the whole world.
a/x


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:27 pm:

SYlvester, Somerset COunty PA is only about 80 miles from Camp David, so it wasn't random. My guess (just my interpretation of what I see and hear) is that the pilot, after hearing what he was going to be forced to do, dumped all the jet's fuel. This forced the plave to crash land well short of it's target. I am just guessing this since it didn't hit the target, and because the plane didn't burst into flame like the other three.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:30 pm:

elrond:i don't think i said it was random attacks.

Could seme like ti though, but it wasn't my point.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:46 pm:

There is no other side. Innocent people are dead and others cheered for it. I hope that anyone, anywhere, who thinks this is okay burns in the worst Hell imaginable. Everyone involved in causing this tragedy will deserve whatever comes to them.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:55 pm:

yes there are other sides.

If you wish to not see them, your choice, but people don't jsut go and kill themselves and other human beings just for the heck of it.


By Matt The Great on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:11 pm:

"I could be wrong, but I feel as though many of you are young in this discussion board, perhaps still in school, and to have a justice mentality is of course the immediate reaction. Be careful, because you don't know what you're saying . . . you might be at war one day and realize that fighting back, even for your own country, is completely not worth it. My father is a Vietnam War veteran, and he tells me this every other day."

Your father is wise. And I get that same feeling, that most of the people here are very young. When I was younger, I was in favor of the death penalty. I thought it seemed the most expedient solution to a number of problems, and bandied about phrases like "they don't deserve to live" often.
Since then I have lost my best friend. His death opened my eyes. And I would have given anything to end the pain I felt. And I would give anything to prevent someone else from ever feeling that pain again. It is unthinkable to anyone who has ever experienced death to wish it upon even the most "deserving" of people. It takes a great sense of maturity and understanding to realize that murder is NEVER right, and NEVER justified. I'm sorry it took a war for your father to realize that, and I'm sorry it took the loss of my best friend for me to see that.

"Not to sound callous, but none of the nuclear powers are involved... so whoever we choose to nuke is squarely out of luck. It will not start WW3."
Please consider: World War I began with a single death. Between two of the smallest countries to be involved in that war. Think before you speak - do you honestly think that the rest of the world would sit idly by as the USA detonates the first nuclear weapon ever used in warfare? (technically the bombs dropped on Japan were atomic, not nuclear)
No. A nuclear weapon is not a thing to be used.

"And quite frankly I'm not talking about an Eye for an Eye, I'm talking about a Life for an Eye. Wars arent decided by using equal force or equivelent measures. The United States of America is under attack and the only choices that make sense are full and overwhelming response, or to surrender and remove ourselves from the world stage. Anything else is just half-assed."

Wars should never be decided. Death is never right. Death is never justice. And death never is sensible. And "overkill" is in the English language for a reason. I pray that everyone who calls for any type of retaliation can have the intelligence, maturity, and sense to realize that violence is not the answer to any problem. Ever.

As a side note, after just having seen President Bush's national address, I hope that he will realize that the best way to demonstrate the invulnerability of "America's Spirit" is to NOT retaliate in any way, shape, or form. To acknowledge the terrorists of the world is to give them what they most need: attention. Deny them that, and they have lost. While it is impossible to ignore the events of Sepetember 11, 2001, rest assured that the terrorist groups would absolutely LOVE to see the US devote money and resources toward them. Entirely seperate from the MORAL reasons for not retaliating, aside from the threat (however likely or not you may see it), this is the LOGICAL reason for not retaliating.


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:18 pm:

I was replying to this...


Quote:

Also, note that none of the strikes were on completely randomly chosen sites! The WTC,the Pentagon, Camp David, etc...Except for that
summerset county. WTH IS in there?



By Neth on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:22 pm:

Hyper, go to hell. I mean it. Go burn.

Matt: Destroy them. Infinatly better than denial.

To everyone who suggests the Palestinians have even AN OUNCE of right in cheering. You are wrong.

No one I know cheers over mass murder. All the people on this forum who thinks this attack was justified are plain wrong, and should be banned from this site for even suggesting such a thing. Last time I checked, when the US attack foreign targets, it hit military targets. It doesn't hit civilians. It doesn't kill thousands. It doesn't attack without justification. It's citizens don't cheer when they hear the death toll.

The real solution to this problem is to kill every single known terrorist, topple the governments that shelter them, and give aid money to people such as the Palestinians. But of course the US will solve the problem with a few cruise missiles instead, maybe kill a few terrorists, and cultivate a whole new crop of anti-US sentiment and the terrorists that come with it.


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:30 pm:

Az put it best regarding Sylvester in #bdchat today.

"Sylvester, I want to see you say that Canada deserved it if exactly same thing kills 20,000 innocent Canadians some day."


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:34 pm:

lol..ok, thx elrond.

JP:I replied to that one.

And i'm having a quite ncie conversation w/ az right atm about he same topic.

i'd _FEEL_ like killing them, very probably.

FEEL... nothing rational in there. I'D probably try tog et over the 100% feeling thing ASAP, but obviously it's gonna take longer than for me atm.


By Littlesaltz (Saltz) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:46 pm:

>

Bleh...if you don't think these people are ban-material before, they probably aren't now. Moving on...

Has the US government ever destroyed buildings, without any warning, and then denied that we had done it? Whatever the US does or supports, people will say that we are wrong. If we assassinate the terrorists, we will not be giving them due process. We will most likely not be able to simply capture them. We cannot simply ignore them. If we attack the countries that harbor them, their neighbors won't like us.

Also, please recognize that the Pentagon is a military target, and while not all attacks were against it, one was.

I agree with Azh...US involvement may not be great, but it saves peoples lives. Remember that the US is part of NATO, so any attack on a NATO nation is an attack on the US. I guess we extend that logic to "peacekeeping."

Psycho, you said that you got beaten by police. Police brutality is reported in America too...maybe the two countries are similar in that they're not perfect.

Somehow, I don't see the US as Fascist...

Hitler was a power hungry anti-semetic rascist who is responsible for the death of millions. Please tell your friends not to compare him to Hitler...it just doesn't make sense. I don't like Bush as a president, but that doesn't mean he's Hitler.

Saltz


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:49 pm:

tihnk hitler was seen as a "power hungry anti-semetic (sic) rascist" by the majority of germans?

It's easy to look back and say that xyz was wrong...

OK, anyway, maybe the analogy is a bit exaggerated, though ^_^


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:53 pm:

As to the present situation:

I'm currently not in NY, but away at school, so I'm ok, as is my immediate family. I haven't spoke dirctly to my mom, who was a few miles away, working at the airport, however she saw it happen, and was quite involved in the ensuing chaos, and is quite shaken up by all this. I have heard that some people I know were in the World Trade Center at the time, and I haven't heard any word from them.

This whole time I keep thinking to myself how unreal this all seems. Stories of my parents friends walking out of the city over the bridges several miles to train stations and such seems like something out of a book or movie.

It is really impossible to fully grasp, especially in this country. I simply cannot fathom that the proud skyline of that city will forever be changed, and that so many innocent people have died.

My prayers are with all those hurt by this, and with their families and loved ones. These sorts of acts really should have been banished a long time ago.

As to the surrounding discussion:

I personally beleive that the taking of life for any reason is fundamentally wrong. A overpowering retalitory effort by my country is soething I fear greatly, especially when the targets of that retaliation are so elusive and so cowardly. I cannot undedrstand anyone who could commit an act of atocity, then go hide behind civilians.

What's worse, in this case, these terrorists are hiding not behind their own people, but behind those of their enemy. That is perhaps the most frightening aspect of this whole situation. And the main statement of whoever is responsibe for this. Think about it. Had we known that a plane carrying 100 people was about to crash somewher, casuing greater loss of life, how difficult must it be to make the decision to shoot down that plane and kill 100 innocents to save others. The knowledge of a city saved is small consolation to those vitctims.

What's more, this group, whoever they are, managed to hit the Pentagon. Why is that more important than taking out the White House, or the Capitol? Becasue the Pentagon is the one that should know about these thigs first. They are the ones that will inform the rest of the government. All of this is so well constructed, it's amazing. I mean, were I to launch an attack against a much more conventionally powerful nation, and wanted to drive home a stinging lesson, how wold I go about it?

1) I would pick a date signifcant to my cause and to the nation I am attacking (Anniversary of Camp David Accords)

2) I would use that nations own infrastructure against it (Hijack passenger jets)

3) I would strike a target that while highly visible and in the psychological heart of that nation (NYC) one that proves my superiority, for example one that has already been supposedly "protected" due to previous attacks (WTC)

4) I would strike a target of important governmental significance that is somehow directly connected with this nations supposed defense aganist the very attack I am staging. (Pentagon)

Anyway, to those who say that the US "had it coming" you are in some ways right, however, that is by no means an excuse for what happened. This sort of thing was going to happen a t some point, almost certainly. However, the government chose to prepare for the worst case scenario (rogue nukes or bio weapons) and passed by those thing of a saller scale. One can not really fault the US gov't for that. There was little that could be done...this was just an exaple of the risk that we run being a free society that attempts to show this freedom to other states. We are open to this attack not becasue of a fundamental failure of our policy, but because of it's success. Americans choose to be a free and open people, to come to the aid of other nations; and today, we payed the price for that. In this way, yes, we "had it coming."

However, the message to us now is clear. It's been said many times before, more subtly, for sure, but this world is chaging at its very foundations, not just overarching strategies, but the very concepts that we hold central. Those who can take best advantage of this paradigm shift will survive. My fear is that current administration is reponding to new threats with old policy, the results of which can be nothing short of disatrous, as we have already seen. Despite my dislike of the way this goven'tment is run, now is the time to trust the leader elected by the system I have vowed to support.

I only pray that this horrible act will serve as an impeutus for peace and new thinking rather than violence and decent into barabarism. Take care, all of you, wherever you are, because worse things may be in store.

Though I hope my fears are unfounded, these coming weeks could well decide the fate of the world for not just years, but centuries to come.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:56 pm:

redman:centuries to come..

please

Yes it is important, but elt's nto blow it REALLY out of proportions ^_^


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:05 pm:

Perhaps you are right Sylvester, and a part of me would like to agree with you.

Far smaller events have decided the fates of millions, while things greater than this have not dramatically changed the course of history as much.

I don't intend to worry anyone, as I'm sure plenty of that is being done.

All I want to do is talk about the fundamental shifts that are undergoing RIGHT NOW. It's happenening already...today is just a snapshot, a pinpoint moment in time that we can identify with this change. We just have to make sure our leaders are aware and capable enough to deal with it...and as of yet, they have shown themselves woefully short.


By Me on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:05 pm:

Can't someone counter the attack? We should've STPed the planes, that way everyone goes and tends the fields and even gain life out of it.


By mepersonthing on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:10 pm:

I can't concieve of this attack, have no real way of understanding the order of magnitude. I can offer sympathy, but can't pretend to understand what it feels like.

I should be able to end my response there. However, this thread seems to have turned into a commentary on the correct response to this aggression.

Firstly, I would like to say that Psycho is completely wrong: the US did not 'have this coming.' They may have done some pretty terrible things, and there is no difference to my eyes between ramming planes into buildings and napalming villages, but there can be no justifacation for an offence of this magnitude.

That said, it's no reason for the US not to become a country prone to these attacks for decades to come.

JP Meyer, I think, suggested that this is the time to 'act like Israel.' That is the worst thing I can possibly see being done in the circumstances, and perhaps sadly the most likely.

What has happened in Israel, like in Northern Ireland and similar places around the world? Brutal unjust attack has been met with equally unjust retaliation over and over.

There is no difference between ramming planes into buildings and napalming villages.

Certainly the US is capable of massive retaliation, be it with nukes, with intense bombing, with whatever. This would serve only to inflame people who have at most a mild dislike of America into outright hatred. The American Army ought not to recruit for Bin Laden, which is what a retaliation against innocent targets would be equivalent.

However, it is equally important to return fire, to do so decisively and with vigor. There are people out there who are responsible for this, and they ought to be pitilessly hunted down. Just as it is crucial to use no more force than is necessary, that the blow be precise and directed at those responsible alone, it is crucial that the blow be struck swiftly and accurately. To let the murderers responsible for this would not only be a grotesque travesty of justice, it would be a signal that the US is weak and cannot defend itself. This impression must be annihilated completely.

There are two extremes to be avoided at all costs: to be hated, and not to be feared. Fear, unlike in Machiavelli's Italy, is not enough: there is little that can be done to prevent such assaults if they should be common. America must earn respect, if it cannot earn love, from the Palistinians who cheered the collapse of the World Trade Center and those like them. If the most fervent anti-Americans are reduced to a respectful distaste, such as might be felt for the police by a petty criminal, then all will be well.

P.S. There are many people here who seem to have faith in W's competence to appropriately handle this. To strike with sufficient but not excessive force, to be precise but swift, is an incredibly intricate balancing act. I think W has as much brains as Gore has charisma. While people may say that he has advisers, he needs them to help him brush his teeth and tie his shoelaces in the morning. This is the time when America needs a visionary, a great president. Lamentably it has the most incompetent fool to serve as a blot on the history of the country.

P.P.S. I am aware of three invasions of Afghanistan by major powers: twice by the Brits, once by the USSR. The first British invasion was a notorious debacle, from which I believe one soldier (a doctor whose name I forget) of the significant army sent returned to India with news of the massacre. The second invasion I am not well-versed in: I believe it ended in an unconvincing British victory. In any case General 'Bobs'of the Boer War extricated himself, so it could not have been so bad. Lastly, the prolonged Soviet invasion was much like Chechnya, but on a grander scale and for a longer duration: a complete nightmare and whirlpool that dragged the country down for years. With these precedents I cannot find extensive retaliation against the Taliban feasible, even if it were advisable.


By mepersonthing on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:18 pm:

P.P.P.S: Someone who actually read my entire post and payed attention might notice the contradiction between. 'the US is capable of massive retaliation.' and the last sentence. I should clarify what I mean by feasible: while the American army is so obviously strong it is capable of almost anything, I cannot help but feel a real full-scale assault on the country- which I find even the execrable W unlikely to take on- would be an immense drain and tragedy, not only for the Afghans, but for the American troops sent to accomplish this mission


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:28 pm:

mpt:he seems to want to attack "the ones who harbor [the... terrorists]"


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:29 am:

hyper emotion monster:
of course there is another side, but americans are emotionally too affected at the moment to see this.
i talked to a palestinian student here last evening (CET), and he said it's possible that palestinina fanatics did this- for several reasons. as a revenge that the USA supports the Israeli regime against the arabs, or maybe to wake the US nation up about the powder keg middle east.
palestinians seem to think, that pictures on TV of palestinians (even kids) getting killed by israels army doesn't affect us people watching TV when they eat their potatoe chips or hamburgers while watching, caus it's so far away from their country. then i told him there are also pictures of suicide terrorists attacking israeli school busses, but he said, lots of palestinian think this is self defense.
that all is weird for a central european like me, but that middle east problem is complex.
and not every interference of the US is good, as someone above said. and it's done too often and for the wrong reasons i'm afraid.


By Andrew, the Sphinx Slayer (Andrew) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:38 am:

Sylvester and others: Today is not the day for this arguement. Lets just let things simmer down a little, and be glad that the BD'ers are alive, and well (as far as I know) and that we were not there. Today is a day for sorrow. Retribution and debate can wait.


By actionmandeluxe on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:39 am:

He simply doesn't know what to do, and he has to get the message that he does off pretty quick. No one can really blame him too much for that, he is our president, but he is still just a man. No one else has the right answer.
Also, I'm not real sure that due process works the same way outside of our country, like with dealing with terrorists. In the past it's been dealt with "outside of the laws".
I had more to say here, but after reading a couple of the lengthier posts and such, I've forgotten why I even came online in the first place.
It was interesting though.
a/x


By Darius69 on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:00 am:

well, I live on Long Island, but I have a lot of friends who work in the city. I'm grateful there all okay. Those bastards respnsible are gonna pay. Thee is crtainly going to be more than the usual slap on the wrist. This horror makes Pearl Harbor look like a drive by shooting.


By White Knight (White_Knight) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:41 am:

The issue is to not address the problem with mindless aggressive attitude. This is, as someone pointed out, the reason every nation, specially the US, that terrorist factions need to be hunted down on a zero-tolerance attack.

I don't think the palestinians who celebrated this tragedy are exactly to blame for as I'm syre most of the population isn't aware of the consequences. Even if they are the ones' to blame are those who brainwash these people into believing what happened is right.

For those saying that "the US had it coming" no matter how they do it: please people, think before you talk or write something like this. By saying you are neglecting the tragedy that was the loss of thousands.
Even if you aknowledge that but still keep at it remember that the repercussions that this will have may well affect your lives in some way or another (economical and political repercussions). So think before going on and spit against the wind.

To the one making use of what happened to say that he wouldn't mind one person with whom he has personal would have died: OH PLEASE, DO GROW UP!


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 05:26 am:


Quote:

THE US HAD IT COMING




Tell that to the next of kin of each and every person who died in those towers. Personally.

If you can do that, I'll consider the argument.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:37 am:

First off, i want to ask those that i offended by not doing the same as others in just saying that i was happy you were alive, that those who did it were complete monsters, etc....

I definitely FEEL the pain that you can feel... but i thought that we had gotten over the first wave of emotions... Obviously, as i have seen ehre and from myself(just watching summaries of the events were enough... it was awful), it wasn't the case. I WAS happy to see that you guys were alive. I WAS sad that people died. However, i don't think that pure anger, or jsut not trying to understand the other side is going to bring anything good to anyone.

WK and all others:Not really. I think that we can feel that the US "had it coming" by the way they act internationnally, while still feeling sad for the massive loss of lives.


By Barktooth Warbeard (Barktooth) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:02 am:

Just a note Brimstone is okay.

But some of his friends family is missing. If I were religious I would pray for you all right now and every1 who has suffered in this great tragedy either directly or indirectly.

Brim: I hope they r allright and please inform us as soon as you have ne news.

I know it's scary to shit knowing that people u know r missing as I have been affected 2.

Just keep on going people and whatever you do stop watching that footage over and over it just slips you into a deep depression don't do it. Keep yourself occupied.

DON'T WATCH TV MUCH!!!

Barktooth


By Milton (Milton) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:14 am:

This is for Psycho:

While you sit around with your friends going to bars that have pictures of George Bush with 'Wanted Dead or Alive' at the bottom, sipping your coffee and criticizing American Imperialism I want you to remember my great uncle. He died in Belgium in the fall of 1944. He was killed in action. He died, as did many Americans, preserving your freedom. He gave up his life so you could have the freedom to criticize our foreign and domestic policies. So as you sit on the Internet today (an American invention) and play a game or two of Magic (an American invention) and wear your American blue jeans and listen to American music, remember my Uncle, OK?

Also, is American Imperialism really that bad compared to Nazi or Soviet Imperialism? Don't bother thanking me and my tax dollars for your freedom, your welcome.

I would be very careful talking about American foreign policy in the comming days. You cannot possibly understand the pain that is ripping our country appart.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:19 am:

And we can thank the american "Victory" on a compeltely non-american invention..

So what?

Milton, that is EXACTLY th attitude we're talking about when we talk about american imperialism. Think that america went in to save the freedom of european countries? Think again. It was doing all it could in order not to have to jump into the fight.

American only came in WWII after Pearl Harbor, when they HAD to do it.

Tell me, are you thankful to the British for having protected their english colonies VS the french invasion?

The past is the past, and it is no reason for a nation to go around like it's the ruler of all that is, and bow down everyone.


By Psycho, the Horned God (Psycho) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:29 am:

I agree with Sylvester. I too feel very sorry for all the victims but that doesn't mean I agree with 'the US way'.

In my previous post the words "had it coming" were maybe wrongly chosen. I did't mean the US (and certainly all those innocent victims) deserved this. i just mean you could expected something like this was going to happen sooner or later.

Also, I just wanted to state that some Western people don't agree with some things the US seems to stand for. Actually this isn't directly related to this accident, just a general opinion.

I'm very sorry if I hurted someones feelings and i hope I won't get banned for just giving an opinion (otherwise the 1984 joke would be not that funny anymore), I mean this isn't flaming, just discussion.

I'm gonna shut up now I think because I love this site and like its people and don't want an argument.


By Big Blue on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:32 am:

I don't know how to react to these waves of emotions in these posts. The problem is, there are several layers which have to be considered. The first layer is purely personal and no post can help in this case: If you have lost a relative or a friend every single word in this thread becomes worthless and pointless. What is the short satisfaction of vengance as compared to an extinguished life? How can people analyse so rationally when somebody close to you has died?

But analysis is neccessary. Maybe not immediately, maybe not today or tomorrow, but it should be done. Because, in the words of Dumbledore you need to understand to be cured. And many people need to be cured of their loss, their anger and their hatred.

The second layer, however, is political. And some people were discussing in this layer, along the lines that it is no surprise that terrorists attacked US since US messed around with half the world in the last decades. Or a discussion about terrorism per se and the impossibility to counteract always unless you want a police dictatorship. And so on...

I think such a discussion is premature, for the reasons I mentioned above. But it should be done. Only later, when emotions have faded a bit.

And DONT WATCH TV is a really good suggestion - it only increases your emotions, and that's the least thing you need now.

And thank you, White Knight. You truly deserve to play the purest colour of Magic.

BTW, does anybody know the hotline-numbers? Because my cousin still has not responded, so I am kind of worried now.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:53 am:


Quote:

Also, I just wanted to state that some Western people don't agree with some things the US seems to stand for. Actually this isn't directly related to this accident, just a general opinion.

I'm very sorry if I hurted someones feelings and i hope I won't get banned for just giving an opinion (otherwise the 1984 joke would be not that funny anymore), I mean this isn't flaming, just discussion.




So long as the US doesn't stand for eating babies while singing hymns to Satan, I think all those people would agree that it doesn't stand for planes flying into buildings occupied by thousands.

Like I said on #bdchat, your opinions are all valid, but criticizing US foreign policy sounds callous right now, doesn't it?

Guys like Brim who don't know if they've lost loved ones sure don't need it, so please.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:54 am:

MATT D'AVANZO. CALLING MATT D'AVANZO...


By White Knight (White_Knight) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:29 am:

I still think that thoughts like "the US had it comming" are not called for. Why? Because it seems rather coward that some people only manifest these thoughts now that the US had a tragedy that it couldn't, or at least didn't avoid in time.

If the US had it comming it would have been for a long time and I wonder why people didn't tell that then. To take advantage of a tragedy that cost the lives of thousands, to say such things is to show no respect for those who died and those who lost their loved ones.

Hasn't Matt showed up yet?


By meh on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:35 am:

does he have a computer at home? i know he always talks about how he doesn't have a tv, etc.
lack of net access may well be why he hasn't shown up yet.


By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 09:39 am:

I think this is an appalling tragedy and is totally unwarranted. This can't be compared to p\Pearl h\Harbor because Pearl Harbor was a military installation and the people there knew their risks. This was thousands of civilians going about their daily work routine. The fact that the US let it happen also shows our vulnerability to the world. Those planes should have been dealt with before they got anywhere near the Twin Towers or the Pentagon. The Pentagon is supposed to be the military fortress of the US. You mean to tell me there was no ground based anti aircraft defenses? Those that say the US had it coming I really don't like that at all. This was an act of Terorism just to kill people. It didn't affect the US goverments ability to make decisions or military power. I hope that they make an example out of the people responsible because we can not let something like this happen again. It appalls me that it even happened at all. Just the gall of the Terrorists responsible as well as the vulnerability of the US.


By DicemanX on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:13 am:

You know, people that rag and bitch on the Americans, calling them imperialists and fascists, comparing GWB to Hitler, and preaching to the masses about how peace is the only answer, not war, are usually the same people that enjoy their freedom and standard of life BECAUSE of the tremendous sacrifice of those that fought for those very freedoms. Do you really think that, as a moral and just person, you can project your morality of the evil in this world (the terrorists today, or the Nazis, communists of times past?). You CANNOT reason with such monsters!!!! Do you so naively think that talks
are the answer? If the free world opted for peace
talks back in the 1930's we would be suffering under a Nazi regime. Don't you know your history? Talks were all the British and French were capable of when the Nazi tanks rolled into Poland, without lifting a finger to help. Yes, reasoning with Hitler helped quite a bit, as he annexed country after country. Or if US wasn't the military might after WWII, you would be suffering greatly under the degenerate communist system where you would be eliminated or sent to Siberia for any dissent you might show. The fact that you can have a negative opinion of America AND VOICE IT FREELY is a right and a priveledge you don't even appreciate.

And I want to mentioned another thing. The US was never ordained as the angelic protector of the world. To blame them for not perfectly resolving every conflict in this world totally detracts the blame and focus from the real oppressors, the real evil-doers. America does a lot of things wrong, and they are capable of a lot of wrongdoing themselves, but I don't think that you would find a single American that would justify or cheer for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians. Its probably because we have rights and freedoms for INDEPENDENT THOUGHT, than to have a bullshit religion to brainwash the masses and convince them that they can kill innocents because they are on the side of God (eg terrorists, suicide bombers). And if you don't believe or follow the dictates of your religion/culture, you suffer a terrible fate. Yes folks, that is the evil of Islam. Or any religion. It breeds fanaticism, it isolates people, it creates conflict. Look back on the tremendous human suffering in the past. How many have died because of religion? Even Cristianity has a very black spot in history, like the butchery during the crusades...

The answer to the attack on America? There are two ways to resolve this conflict as I see it. Option number one is to PULL OUT of the Middle-East. Don't get involved anymore. Stop backing Israel and stop massively funding those butchers
(do you people in the States know HOW MANY BILLIONS of dollars are sent there yearly?? How do you think Israel became armed to the teeth, using their military might to kill and torture Palestinians?). That is why America is the target of Middle-Eastern terrorist groups. Their foreign policy unfortunately cost their innocent civilians greatly - a disaster they were PRAYING wouldn't happen, but knew every day that someting like this might ultimately come to pass. The second option is to retaliate...but that will breed more hatred and lead to more assaults on the States, and they will live as a nation in perpetual fear.

I'm a Canadian, born in (communist)Poland, and while I don't agree with everything the US does, some of the things it stands for, or some of its Foreign policy (which is downright atrocious in some cases), I know that I owe my freedom and my right to free speech because of them. It only takes someone to realize what it is like to live in fear or terror or oppression. I (and you) enjoy this freedom because someone sacrificed their life for it. I don't believe in war or conflict, but you know, when you cannot reason with an enemy who doesn't recognize the value of your life and your right to freedom, and would kill you unhesitantly in the name of his God or his beliefs, tell me, how are you going to defend youself, your family, your neighbors??? By talking?

Well, I have talked too much, but I do want to say that my heart is with all that have suffered/died in the US. This is a tragedy unparalleled in this day and age by an unfeeling, immoral sickness.

Nobody ever deserves something like this.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:22 am:

sadly, i have to say that Poland never was a big consideration for the French, Brits, and even less for the Russians 8(

Also, it may be tru that armed response is the only way to deal with them... Does it make them any more wrong then we are?


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:23 am:

This just in from that bastard who forgot to e-mail ASAP:


Quote:

> Rakso & Co--
>
> Consider me accounted for. On a sidenote I just heard from the last of my
> friends. Apparently no one I know was injured or killed. The worst that
> happened to most of them apparently was a three hour walk to Brooklyn or
> Queens. Hope everyone else we know is as lucky.
>
>
> --Matt



By Punk on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:05 pm:

It's crazy, it's all gone, it just disappeared. When i first heard i thought it was a joke and still it is just worng what happened to us. It's so weird we didn't even have a thought of this happening before on 9-10 or 9-9. it had to happen on 9-11 (911 call for help).


By Big Blue on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:13 pm:

And I thought I had to play Sylvan in my Keeper for the rest of my life in honor of our fallen Librarian - Matt, next time you decide to attend a catastrophy please e-mail sooner :)


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:17 pm:

erhm....

Punk, that datation system isn't used internationnally, and is probably not used where the attacks come from.


By dicemanX on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:42 pm:

Sylvester,

Poland might not be viewed now as a big "consideration", but back then, Poland, Britain, and France were in a treaty after WWI, promising to help one another if one got invaded. The help from the French and Brits never came when Hitler invaded. Poland was betrayed this way, but I bet they never mention this in any history books - God forbid that the Allies are portrayed in any way less than heroic. The Poles were the only ones to actually defend their nation - everybody else in Europe gave up without a fight, including France. The betrayal paved the way to WWII, as Hitler was allowed the time and luxury he needed. The Poles, fighting on horseback against tanks, never had a chance without help. Another brilliant example of what talks do when you're confronted by crazy maniacs in this world who brainwash the people of their nation into justifying means to reach their end.

The second betrayal, came, of course, after Eastern Europe was left in the hands of a bigger butcher than Hitler, and fifty years of a system more terrifying than the Nazi regime would ever impose. The first thing Stalin did after the Soviets were left with Eastern Europe was to take every officer in the Polish army and kill them (as well as officers in armies from other nations). The Russians always feared the Poles' strong resolve and sense of identity; indeed, it took the bold and dangerous dissent of Polish workers forty years later to finally initiate the downfall of communist terror...


By mepersonthing on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:04 pm:

Irrelevant historical point:

Actually, the Poles fought very well: for a time the German forces were actually beaten back. If the French had advanced along the Rhine- where they outnumbered the Germans 4-to-1 according to German leaders- the war would have been over in a month.


By Marcial on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:07 pm:

I cannot believe that some of you can so easily say that the US deserved this, and that "we had it coming", etc. If you don't understand how serious this is, let's give you a mental picture.

Take the building you work in, or perhaps your school. You're working like you normally would, or you're listening to your teacher lecture. Suddenly, the building is rocked by an explosion. From your location, you have no idea what has happened, but it seems as though a bomb has went off. You run out of your part of the building to see that in reality, it is an airplane that has crashed through the building, or at least, you see the remains of it.

You see body parts, you see charred remains of people in the vicinity of the wreckage. You're fighting your way out admist crowds of panicked people, some with large cuts and gashes, and perhaps even some missing an arm. The stairways are packed, and time is passing onward, and before you can reach the bottom, you hear screaming and look up to see the stairways above you collapsing, and then you realize that the entire building is coming down, on top of YOU. You don't have time to react -- in less than 30 seconds, the entire building has crashed to the ground.

In a matter of seconds, you have seen your life flash before your eyes. Imagine if it were you and all of your friends in that scenario. Imagine if it were, in addition to that, thousands of other people?

Do you still think we deserved it?

If you think that retaliation is wrong, then imagine if you watched your parents, or if you're old enough, your children, get shot and killed. Would you be content to just sit there and live it out? or would you want to see the killer brought to justice?

This is our dilemma. Our parents, our children, our brothers and sisters were killed yesterday. These aren't just "random joe" people, these are people with faces, names, identities, and most importantly -- families.


To address one of the other issues, mainly, who did it, I have this to say, and this is the view of myself combined with at least 30 people I have talked to and had long conversations with throughout the course of yesterday and today.

Someone mentioned that it might be a domestic terrorist -- i.e. someone who is american, and based within our borders. One of the first rules of domestic terrorism is that you don't kill the people who you want on your side (the civilians). A domestic terrorist can't do a thing without support, and the only way to win support is to get the people to stand behind him, or at least enough to actually give him some pull in society.

Look at Bin Laden. He has the support of thousands of people. THOUSANDS. This isn't some guy who is intelligent, this is a leader who has followers willing to die in his service. He didn't get that kind of following by killing the people who have stood behind him.

Which brings me to my next point: I honestly think that Bin Laden is the only person who has:
The Financial Resources
The intelligence
The following
The professionals
and the ability to orchestrate such an attack.

Remember the embassy bombings? Two different buildings in different locales were bombed almost simultaneously. The attack and hijacking of airplanes yesterday was beautifully orchestrated, and only a couple of people in the entire world could have put such a major plan together. He is one of those people.

These were planes that were picked out because of their fuel loads, since more fuel will equal a much better explosive impact. Also, these are huge commercial planes. They have the maneuverability of a potato. It takes incredible skill and precision to fly one of them directly into a building. The terrorists could have easily clipped a wing on a building, and instead of hitting their target, spun wildly out of control and crashed somewhere else in manhattan. Again, I will emphasize that these hijackers were professionals. Bin Laden is the only one with the financial resources to hire/train these kind of people, and he seems to be the only one who could deliberately end so many lives without even a second thought.

These were not random targets that were picked, these were targets that the terrorists KNEW would make an impact. The World Trade Center? That disrupts lots of things, and as an added bonus, it disrupts pretty much the heart of manhattan for days, even weeks, as rubble is cleared and fires are quenched. The Pentagon? What better target than the symbol of the military power of the states? And the fourth plane? It could have easily been going to the White House, or perhaps Camp David, or any number of locations in the Washington area. If it had been going to the White House (which I personally believe) and had actually reached its target, imagine the kind of day we would be having today. The White House is our symbol. Destroying that is like taking the still-beating heart out of the chest of our country and squashing it in your fist.

Yesterday was a horrendous day, and I apologize if I really got long-winded there. I just needed to make a point, and get my views out into the open.

One more thing -- the Palestinians. They were celebrating because frankly, they don't like us. That's their problem if they want to celebrate out in the street because our society got disrupted and thousands lost their lives.


By Max, the Mana Drainer (Max) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:09 pm:

U.S. a fascist state? LOL.

We shouldn't forget that the U.S. preserves our freedom and peace.

Max


By Max, the Mana Drainer (Max) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:20 pm:

For DicemanX: Religion breeds fanaticism? Don't generalize. I agree with you if you are speaking of Islam but I disagree if you are speaking of Christianity.

Max


By Matt The Great on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:30 pm:

"If you think that retaliation is wrong, then imagine if you watched your parents, or if you're old enough, your children, get shot and killed. Would you be content to just sit there and live it out? or would you want to see the killer brought to justice?"

You're damn right I would want the killer brought to justice. But justice is NOT death. And retaliation is NOT justice. If I had lost a family member, there is nothing I would abhor more than to double those feelings of pain and loss by killing another human, no matter his/her crimes. I hope that someday, you and everyone else will understand that two wrongs do not make a right. No death penalty, no assassination will do anything to bring back a loved one, or to fill the void left in your heart by their passing. It's all too easy to hide vengeance under the guise of justice, and I hope with all my heart that someday you'll realize this.


By Matt The Great on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:34 pm:

Also, note that the people who say "the US had it coming" invariably were not taught English as their first language (typically being from other countries). So whenever you see that on these boards, instead read "the US brought this upon itself" instead of getting riled up. "Had it coming" is an opinion, and a glaringly ignorant one at that.


By Matt The Great on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:37 pm:

"Religion breeds fanaticism? Don't generalize. I agree with you if you are speaking of Islam but I disagree if you are speaking of Christianity."

Truly sir, your bigotry is awe-inspiring.
Or have you never heard of the Christian Coalition, Southern Baptists, Bible Belt, or Jerry Falwell? And that's just in America, and just in our times.

*Note: Nowhere in this post will you find me saying that Islam isn't similarly rife with fanaticism.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:44 pm:


Quote:

I agree with you if you are speaking of Islam but I disagree if you are speaking of Christianity.




Dude... that's as bigoted as it is ridiculous. What do you call the IRA?


By Marcial on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:50 pm:

well Matt, I don't think we're going to find Bin Laden (if it turns out to be him) and just lock him up in a holding cell for 25 years, slap him on the wrist, and let him go.

What you have to remember is that with people like him, or any other terrorist leaders, reason and understanding are things that are long gone in their minds.

The only response that will accomplish anything is to retaliate.

Slapping them on the wrist is not going to do anything.

The lack of action makes us look weak. Its like if your child breaks a vase and instead of sitting him in the corner, you tell him it's okay. He's not going to learn, he's going to think that it's alright.
The relation in that example is that if we do nothing, there's a good chance that more terrorist attacks will surface as a result. If we "send them into hell and beyond" (which I do not really believe.. but it seems to be a popular sentiment), a strong statement will be made that the rest of the world will hear.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:51 pm:

I don't know if this'll sound hollow but you can go back to St. Augustine. The only thing capable of defeating a human mind and bringing it down from its high position is itself.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:57 pm:


Quote:

The only response that will accomplish anything is to retaliate.




And like I said somewhere else, just make sure George W. Bush knows how to aim.

I dislike being hit by collateral damage.


By meh on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:01 pm:

oh, there will be retaliation. that's pretty obvious. the UN is pulling out of afghanistan RIGHT NOW. make your own conclusions.


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:06 pm:

quote:
"We shouldn't forget that the U.S. preserves our freedom and peace."

i'm still thinking, if i ever heard something more ridiculous than that (esp. for the period after 1945).
and for the guy who wants that belgium thanks him for his taxes: if your are younger than 70, that request is absurd. btw, do you americans ever thank europe, that a lot of people (in england i often heard only the useless, pilgrims and other weird people left to the new world) from england, poland, germany, ireland etc. emigrated to the US to make it the nation it is now? i guess you are not native americans.
and the basis of your state was european culture (but that's gone for a long time).
but that doesn't matter now.
i wanted to say, that those terrorists or villain countries have no way to declar war officially to the US, caus they would have no chance. so they make their terroristic war, their only way to hurt the US.
and why this happened in the US is obvious. belgium (for example) doesn't military interfer in every country where they like to (for what reasons ever), or support israel.
but those people who died didn't deserve it. they persons who were meant to be hurt are as healthy as alsways. george w.,ashcroft, dick cheney


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:06 pm:

quote:
"We shouldn't forget that the U.S. preserves our freedom and peace."

i'm still thinking, if i ever heard something more ridiculous than that (esp. for the period after 1945).
and for the guy who wants that belgium thanks him for his taxes: if your are younger than 70, that request is absurd. btw, do you americans ever thank europe, that a lot of people (in england i often heard only the useless, pilgrims and other weird people left to the new world) from england, poland, germany, ireland etc. emigrated to the US to make it the nation it is now? i guess you are not native americans.
and the basis of your state was european culture (but that's gone for a long time).
but that doesn't matter now.
i wanted to say, that those terrorists or villain countries have no way to declar war officially to the US, caus they would have no chance. so they make their terroristic war, their only way to hurt the US.
and why this happened in the US is obvious. belgium (for example) doesn't military interfer in every country where they like to (for what reasons ever), or support israel.
but those people who died didn't deserve it. they persons who were meant to be hurt are as healthy as alsways. george w.,ashcroft, dick cheney etc.


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:12 pm:

sorry for posting that twice.
was an accident.
rakso: you would be the collateral damage.
and that what makes me mad about US militars:
if they bomb a medicial supply factory (owned by a swiss company) in somalia (killing lots of innocent) or the chinese embassy in belgrad, it's collateral damage. (this are only two examples, list could be endless i guess).
if they get struck in their own country, they are running wild. are civilist casualities in other countries worth less than us people? is a US life supposed to be more important than a life in a 2nd or third world country? that's what i get to think when i read such posts like some of the above, and that also scares me (caus i think GWB is such a guy).


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:19 pm:

and if people think, that has to be payed back even harder than the attack was (more than full scale retaliation).
think of the nazis in yugoslavia in WW2:
for every german soldier killed by the partisans,
they would kill 100 yougoslavian civilians.
that was announced by the german occupiers mostly to threaten the partisans and keep them from action, i'm not sure that it was executed that way.
but what i want to say is, extincting afghanistan or iraq now (especially without any evidence) is no solution (even if it might restore the US pride a bit)


By SliverKing on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:28 pm:

It is the job of a government to protect the lives of its citizens above all else. SO yes, as mean and unjust as it is, a United States citizens life is worth more than anyone elses in our governments eyes. Just like a Brit's life is worth more to the UK than anyone else, etc... Its not racist or imperialist, its just the nature of national government. Your people and interests come first.
If Iraq and Afghanistan get removed from the Earth to insure this never happens again, its unfortunate, but the right of self-defense trumps everything else.


By Dante (Dante) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:37 pm:

On a couple of different points - the people that did this obviously have no regard for innocent human life (don't start on the differing views of "innocent", I think almost all cultures will agree the victims were innocent) and as such should be wiped out. Not for revenge or justice, but prevention. If they did it once w/ no regard for human life, they'll do it again. However, as Rasko says, making sure you get the right people is crucial, otherwise you become no better than they.

Raoul - yes it was European culture that was the basis for the foundation of the US, but it was the outcasts and outcast ideas of Europe, not mainstream culture. If the Puritans would have been accepted into mainstream European culture, they wouldn't have felt the need to come here and contributed the Puritan work ethic to society, which is probably one of the core values that has stuck in the American society from the beginning. (the belief that if one works hard, one can and should build a better life for themselves).

Dante


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:37 pm:

then it would be their right to react with terrorism, caus it's their only way of hurting the US and to defend?
btw, as fas as i know about the inner logic of fanatical islamists, they think that the war is on for a long time, and that it's their right to defend against the god(or allah)less americans, israelis, even with terroristic acts. or especially with terrorism, caus it's their only possibilty. so your argumentation is dangerous, silverking.
and don't begin this "they started first" thing, caus in their eyes, US started in the 60ies, when the began to support israel heavily.i forgot why the started in the 60ies and not earlier, but i read the reason for this once in a book of norman g. finkelstein.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:38 pm:


Quote:

If Iraq and Afghanistan get removed from the Earth to insure this never happens again, its unfortunate, but the right of self-defense trumps everything else.




Including those poor women and children, sure...


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:44 pm:

rakso: give it up, some americans seem to think that this is their planet, and they are allowed to do on it whatever they think is right.
erase this nation for being rude, interfer in that country for economic interests, attack that dictatorship for christs sake, etc.
if you think, that you are the only moralic institution, that's what happens.
i hate to say this, but i'm glad, that china, russia and ukraine have nuclear weapons also.
it keeps the balance a bit, even if russia is on it's knees now. which makes it dangerous on the otherside that they have such weapons.


By Punk on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:53 pm:

I just heard that the white house was the original target for the pentagon plane and (this one isn't positivly confirmed) the one that crashed in pennsalvania was intended for air force one!


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:04 pm:


Quote:

For DicemanX: Religion breeds fanaticism? Don't generalize. I agree with you if you are speaking of Islam but I disagree if you are speaking of Christianity.




Ever hear of the Witch Trials in Salem Massachusetts held by the Puritans? An ancester of mine (Martha Carrier) was hanged after, along with her children and husband, being tortured because someone said, "She hurt me." That is Christian fanaticism.


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:11 pm:

By the way, how many of you ahve seen insane racism against Middle Eastern peoples in the last 24 hours? I was AMAZED to see how many people in my World Cultures class were so quick to say (and I quote several of them directly), "Lets nuke the f*ing rag-heads." This just astounded me to see that normally rational peopel are ruduced to wanting to eliminate the entire Islamic religion. That just pissed me off and I said a couple things I really shouldn't have-I'm glad the teacher is pretty tolerant of bad language :)


By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:32 pm:

The spanish inquisition and the crusades also come to mind as examples. I would say that more death and torture has been commited in the name of christianity than any other religion. (Note: I am not judging christianity itself, but NO religion is exempt from the dangers of fanaticism).

And to speak to Elronds comments, you are right, and I have been deeply troubled by some of the reactions posted here and on #bdchat. If all muslims are guilty of the bombing (this is an assumption that any muslims at all were involved), then I suppose all christians are guilty of all crimes commited in the name of christianity (and there are a lot).

Im not saying you shouldnt be angry or upset or want revenge, or hurt when you see people celebrate, but the revenge should be directed to only those who cause the problem and not an entire culture.


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:33 pm:

Sorry about the triple post but I keep reading stuff that I missed.


Quote:

If Iraq and Afghanistan get removed from the Earth to insure this never happens again, its unfortunate, but the right of self-defense trumps
everything else.




This isn't going to start any kind of Holy War or anything (unless a country refuses to admit that terrorism is wrong and harbors the admitted culprets, in which case.....) It IS going to spark a worldwide detective mystery. The U.S. is going to need help from, likely, every country on earth to track down the minds behind all of this. Chances are, most, if not all, countries will be a big help. Nobody in their right mind can deny that the ramdom elimination of (by the current estimate) over 10,000 people, who were earning a living, is a horrible act of someone who has extremely clouded judgement.



Quote:

The only response that will accomplish anything is to retaliate.

Slapping them on the wrist is not going to do anything.

The lack of action makes us look weak.




I agree and disagree. Retaliation might be the right thing to do, but it damn well had better be directed at the right people. It's way to easy to say that everey Muslim, or everyone who disagrees with the American Government, or everyone in Afghanistan, or whatever group, is to blame (as I said in my post above)

I DON'T believe that lack of action would make us look weak. If we don't do anything at all, then we would look weak but lack of military action makes us look compassionate. If we just go bomb Afghanistan out of frustration, how many people are going to die that had nothing to do with all this shit? Likely as many as died in New York who, more likely than not, didn't pay any attention to what was happening with the Middle East peace talks.

Alright, I think I'm done this time...


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:38 pm:

*sigh* about Nevyn's comments: I don't think that the people celebrating in Palestine were overjoyed that thousands of innocent people died. It's just that they feel oppressed by the decisions our country's leaders are making. Dubya sided against them on several issues.

If you're playing a championship basketball game and will now likely win because their seven foot six player sprained his ankle, do you celebrate? Sure, you're nopt celebrating because he's in awful pain but because you're cause is furthured by it...


By Boltbait, the Master of the Hunt (Boltbait) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:48 pm:


Quote:

THE US HAD IT COMING




It is evil, callous sentiments like this that allow the cancer of international terrorism to fester. Anyone who says this is just as responsible for those acts as the person that did them. Congratulations, now you know what it felt like to live in the village of Auschwitz in 1944. What it is like to rationalize and excuse horrific acts because of your perception or beliefs. Had you been there, would you have quietly wondered what was causing all of the ash?
My brother works in Manhattan, and wasn't accounted for until late last night. All day yesterday, I didn't know if he was alive or dead. He has no role in foreign policy, the application of the death penalty, or any other perceived wrong or slight that you have. He sells cellular phones and enjoys listening to bluegrass and the blues. He is supporting 3 kids while putting himself through school. He is a real person, not a statistic. Not a political statement. Nobody has this coming. Not Palestinians, not Belgians, not Americans.


By Boltbait, the Master of the Hunt (Boltbait) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:55 pm:

BTW, I am glad to see that all of our Bd'ers are apparently ok. I'd hate to be guilted into putting Sylvan into my keeper when Soothsaying is so obviously superior :)

(If that doesn't elicit a response from Matt, nothing will :))


By Marcial on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 04:13 pm:

Yes, I agree. I'm happy to know that everyone on here is safe.


By dicemanX on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 04:27 pm:

For Max: I stand by my statement that Religion breeds fanaticism. I think others here have given examples, the most obvious of which are the Crusades. The problem with religion is that it conveniently replaces rational thought, replacing it with (usually) irrational beliefs designed to have no logic to them. Instead, it allows people to justify any actions, in the name of their God or their beliefs. Fanatics like Bin Laden, or any other Islamic Fundamentalist leaders use that to their full advantage in getting their followers to do ANYTHING, including mindless violence against humanity. You don't rationalize to the masses the "military or strategic advances" you can make in your war when you waste innocents. You just need to tell them that Allah will reward them and they will be in the company of forty virgins when they ascend to heaven if they die (this is what they tell suicide bombers), AND instil fear in them by warning them that they will be summarily executed and will burn in hell if they don't obey.

To me, religion is good when in enriches ones spiritual life, gives people strength, and brings a community closer together. However, it has many failures also, particularly the fact that it ISOLATES, SEGREGATES, CREATES HATRED, and most importantly, TAKES AWAY AN INDIVIDUALS CAPACITY FOR RATIONAL THOUGHT. This is at the very extreme, at the very worst, but it does happen. I'm not generalizing that all religions are at this extreme, but I'm saying that the potential is ALWAYS there for this to happen. If you don't believe this, you deny history, past and present. Conflicts are rarely resolved peacefully - they usually involve the phrase:

-an eye for an eye -

What else could summarize hatred any better than that? Here you have Religion justifying Murder, because revenge is seen as "just" in God's eyes. Wasn't it a teaching of Christ that one should love one's enemies? There is a difference between killing to defend yourelf and your family or neighbours, and and eye for an eye approach -which is just killing to balance the murder perpetrated against someone you love.

I must say also that the hatred in people today is intense. It's even downright disgusting how some in North America are targeting the Muslim community as we speak. Such ignorance is so shameful.


Raoul: The US certainly did preserve peace all the way up to the fall of communism. They balanced out the Soviet threat. If the US were not there to help, Belgium and other Western Europe countries would fall under Soviet control. Don't kid yourself that this wouldn't happen. That doesn't mean that anyone has to kiss the feet of the US, just don't so arrogantly presume that you somehow always enjoyed the right to voice any opinions in the first place. Such privledges had to be fought for with blood, and the US were prepared to defend YOUR rights, and mine, thoughout the cold-war.


By Psycho, the Horned God (Psycho) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 04:38 pm:

I know it's off topic but Christianity is indeed the religion that made the most victims. Actuaaly it's the biggste killer in history. Even bigger than WW2 (only 5th or 6th on the list) and even bigger than the Black Plague (2nd on the list I think).

Inquisition, witchhunts, colonisation and wars in name of god (Azteks, Inca's, ...), ... the list is endless.

Back on topic, i have to admitt that i don't have a solution to this, but just wasting a few Islam countries surely isn't the right way (most of them are as much innocent as the dead Americans).

Someone said that the US sometimes seems to think they're the only country on the planet. I think he hit the nail on the head. The US always seems to be the "Good" against the "Bad". I think in this world you can't make such a radical statement, every country has its good and bad things.


By Milton (Milton) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 05:42 pm:

"and for the guy who wants that belgium thanks him for his taxes: if your are younger than 70, that request is absurd."

Raoul, have you ever heard of the Marshal Plan? How about the Berlin Airlift? NATO? How many American millitary personell served in Europe during the cold war to differ a Soviet threat? We have sacrificed our liberty, in the form of tax dollars, so that Europe can be free. For anyone in Europe, or even Canada, to not support us when we are wounded is truly a slap in the face.

Listen, we can debate sending aid to Isreal. We can talk about US foreign policy in regards to the Palestinians. We can argue and debate the role of the United States in the World. But right now, we need a show of support. Stating "you deserved it" is not going to endeer you to any civilized person in the world.

As for justice, this goes far beyond arresting anyone. Congress, the President, the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, as well as NATO (18-0 vote in favor of Article V), have all declared a state of war to exist. We are not talking about sending in the police or some armed authority to arrest terrorists in Afghanistan. We are talking about special forces, combined with air strikes, to kill as many terrorists as can be killed. We know where their camps are. We know where they recieve finincial support and who is backing them. The lines are clearly drawn here. Either you support the United States, or you are it's enemy in this regard.

For those of you who do not live in this country, be very wary. Things are scary here. Last night there were lines 1 hour long at the gas stations, and I live in the mid-west! People are in shock, they are angry and they want vengence. It is not a good time to be saying that we deserved this. In fact, the only world leader who went so far was Sadam Hussein. Even Libia and Iran are on the right side of the fence in this conflict. So please, be very careful with your comments.

We did not deserve this.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 05:49 pm:

Look, everyone thinks s/he is right, so obviously the US are the Good in every situation.

It's NORMAL! Palestinian kamikazis and Israelian soldiers both feela s though they're doing what ought to be done.

It doesn't make it any more or less right to kill people, but it might help put things in perspective.

America has, directly and indirectly killed thousands of people too, broken families apart, etc. 8( Why do you think these guys were cheering?

As i've read in many comments in the newspapers, and talking with people, many think that americans have finally felt what it felt like being bombarded, etc.


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 05:55 pm:

I got this email from the badmagictech e-group and felt that it was definitely relevant for these "You had it coming posts"


Quote:

I don't usually forward too many items but I'm sending this one.

I know in a couple of places maybe some folks were worried about me. Mid Missouri may be the safest place on the planet. Me and mine are fine but I had some coincidental problems with our bank and my ISP. I am however back after being glued to the TV for a couple of days...

Will


Subject: FW: Great Article


> This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
>
> America: The Good Neighbor.
>
> Widespread but only partial news coverage was
> given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast
> from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian
> television commentator. What follows is the full text of his
> trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
>
> "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for
> the Americans as the most generous and possibly
> the least appreciated people on all the earth.
>
> Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain
> and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by
> the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> forgave other billions in debts. None of these
> countries is today paying even the interest on
> its remaining debts to the United States.
>
> When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
> it was the Americans who propped it up, and
> their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
> streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
>
> When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> United States that hurries in to help. This spring,
> 59 American communities were flattened by
> tornadoes. Nobody helped.
>
> The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
> billions of dollars into discouraged countries.
> Now newspapers in those countries are writing
> about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
>
> I'd like to see just one of those countries that
> is gloating over the erosion of the United States
> dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
> country in the world have a plane to equal the
> Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or
> the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly
> them? Why do all the International lines except
> Russia fly American Planes?
>
> Why does no other land on earth even consider
> putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk
> about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
> You talk about German technocracy, and you get
> automobiles. You talk about American
> technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but
> several times - and safely home again.
>
> You talk about scandals, and the Americans put
> theirs right in the store window for everybody to
> look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and
> hounded. They are here on our streets, and most
> of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
> getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend
> here.
>
> When the railways of France, Germany and India
> were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
> who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
> the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them
> an old caboose. Both are still broke.
>
> I can name you 5000 times when the Americans
> raced to the help of other people in trouble.
> Can you name me even one time when someone else
> raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was
> outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
>
> Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them
> get kicked around. They will come out of this
> thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are
> entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are
> gloating over their present troubles. I hope
> Canada is not one of those."
>
> "Stand proud, America!"
>
> This is one of the best editorials that I have
> ever read regarding the United States. It is nice
> that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
> rest of the world would realize it. We are always
> blamed for everything, and never even get a thank
> you for the things we do.
>
> I would hope that each of you would send this to
> as many people as you can and emphasize that they
> should send it to as many of their friends until this
> letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a
> single American that has read this.
>
> Bill Gelberg



By Dante (Dante) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:02 pm:

Elrond - I think that most nations will "say" that are going to help, and won't, especially middle-eastern nations.

Yes - the anti-middle-eastern crap is just that...crap. Most middle-easterners (I believe) don't support that kind of attack (although I'm sure a lot do). The backlash against arab people living here in America is a ridiculous and wrong generalization, just as it would be to characterize the entire American nation as decadent and immoral because one American soldier raped a japanese girl.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:12 pm:

this guy is so uninformed 8(

Many airlines fly Airbus. Concorde is completely European.

Canadians(well, Quebecois, actually) have helped when you had forest fires. You owe billions to the UN.

You talk about german technocracy, and you find the man behind Apollo. You talk about american technocracy and you find...not much actually.

Brits have defended what was to become America in the past. Are americans thankful for that? Don't think so.

The past is the past, plus history is written by the winners 8(

IMHO, the best editorials i've read were those that were trying to show how there wasn't only the american side of the story. How the medias seem to want to stir up hate versus arabic countries and people. Showing the same footages of the kids cheering in the street of Palestine over and over again, while not showing the arab communities in Montreal, etc saying what a sad day it was for them too a SINGLE TIME.

I'm sure that it wasn't only in Montreal that the middle eastern communities sent their condolences(?)... Yet, i never heard a single word about them, personnally.. I've seen the cheering scenes ~5 times, though.

Could be abd luck, is suppose.


By Desert Fox on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:16 pm:

That was a DAMN good article. That needs to get posted everywhere possible as far as I'm concerned.

About the whole religious issue, I heard this quote that sums it up well:
"The only difference between God and Hitler is that God is more proficient at genocide." You could probably replace Hitler with Stalin and still get the same effect, but post WWII propaganda still patterns Hitler as to be the Most Evil Man (tm).


By Psycho, the Horned God (Psycho) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:18 pm:

I just read something very interesting on the "Rumor Mill". What about the thousands of innocents that died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 due to american A-Bombs?


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:19 pm:

I think most countries will "help" since all it entails is letting Americain FBI and CIA agents run around and try to find terrorists or using their own agents to do the same thing. At the same time, it makes those cooperative nations look really good, too.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:27 pm:

psycho: No need to revive old ghosts... Bad things happened...

I don't know how many americans cheered on that day, but i'm sure it wasn't described as something compeltely disgusting, etc...

But again, we can always go back in time to haunt anyon with something. So, i don'T think WE should make americans remember that...They ought to be able to do it by themselves.


By Nix (Nix) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:05 pm:

not to justify the a-bombs on civilians, but there was a military base with 40,000 soldiers there.

but, to put it plain and simple, it was either that or an invasion, and the bombs were more safe for us. if Truman didnt drop them, he would have been impeached and the next guy would have.


By Milton (Milton) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:18 pm:

Plus, Japan had warning after warning. Also, the second bomb was dropped after Japan failed to surrender. Lastly, that was a WAR. This was an act of TERRORISM. During a war, civilians are killed. Terrorists have the ability to discriminate against victims and choose targets. That is not always possible to do during a WAR.

"You owe billions to the UN."

You have to understand, Sylvester, that many in the US have a very tough time funding an organization that continually criticizes and slanders our country. We support the UN, and it kicks us off of the Human Rights council. We support the UN, and we are criticized for slavery and our support of Isreal.

What you are failing to realize is how extremely important a stable United States is to the world. If world confidence in the United States drops, so does the world economy falls. When economies fall or fail, guys like Hitler manage to find their way into powerful positions.


By DigDug (Digdug) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:20 pm:

Psycho: Hiroshima and Nagasaki were tragedies and still are while cancer rates are as high as they are. However, the alternative was a beach landing twice the size of D-Day and fighting every mile of the way against a civilian population that was training for just such an invasion. I think Truman picked the lesser of two evils, as bad as both evils were.

Elrond: If you do genealogy and have a lot of family from 17th century Massachusetts, send me an email. I'd like to see if we have any names in common.


By Raven (Raven) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:23 pm:

Psyco, there is a difference between the two incidents.

The bombings on Japan were dureing a WAR. And they where dropped because Japan refused to surrender. Japan was actually WARNED! of the bombings. The US told them they would drop them, but they didn't belive it and didn't evacuate those cities. Also it prevent millions of american deaths from land invashion.

Did the terrorist attack come because we are currently at war with them? NO. They attacked without warning in a non-war time. We at least warned Japan first, and it was dureing war. Also, did the recent terrorist attack prevent any lives? Nope, in fact all it did was cause more lives to be lost, because now US will retaliate and more lives will be lost.

I'm not saying nukeing Japan was good, but it certainly is totally different from the terrorist attacks. Also even after the first bomb was dropped, japan didn't surrender, it took another bomb to convince them. God only knows how many Japanese and American lives would have been lost from land invashion.

@ Psycho, don't try to cover up your previous post "America had it comming" with this irrelevant compairison.

America is the greatest nation in the world, and I don't understand why so many countrys hate us and want us destroyed? I could understand if say Russia was the world super power and everyone hated them because they don't allow free elections, and have a poor government, but America is probebly the most fair nation on this planet.

And America always helps out its neigbors, when was the last time another country helped us? We even help our enemys. Vietnam get's sent food and supplys all the time from air drops years after we lost to them. Some nation's and there peoples are so brainwashed and blinded by ignorance that they don't understand what there doing is wronge. Hince the middle-eastern peoples dancing. They are brainwashed by there religion and propaganda from there leaders to think we are some horrible monster comming to kill them.

And I do not think American's were danceing in the streets when the bomb was dropped on Japan. In fact many americans protested it, and cryed for the Japanese loss of life. We were glad when they surrendered because then the war came to an end and no more lives would be lost. War is never good.

I back up Bushes plan to seek and destroy all terrorists, I just hope that the middle easter countrys are smart enough not to hide them within there countrys, we dont need more civilian lives lost.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:40 pm:

LEARN YOUR HSITORY!!!

Vietnam != your enemy. Only south vietnam was.

The last time i can remember your neighbours helping you out isn't so long ago. You ahd forest fires. We sent our planes there to help you.

And, America HAS killed many people in these countries, you unfortunately can't deny it.

How are civilian deaths with a completely undiscriminating weapon launched on cities full of innocent people different than the "act fo terrorism". They had been warned or something like that? Somehow, i don't think it makes their deaths less painful for others.

"America is probebly the most fair nation on this planet."... If that isn't brainwashing... LOL


By Milton (Milton) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:51 pm:

"LEARN YOUR HSITORY!!!

Vietnam != your enemy. Only south vietnam was."

You are an idiot, Sylvester.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:52 pm:

and why is that?

Actually, it's the contrary. Only North vietnam is..

My point is still the same though. Half of vietnam didn't agree with these actions.


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:11 pm:

Sylvester, that guy is also a Canadian.

Is the United States perfect? No. We've done things in the past that are _NOW_ considered bad. At the time, they were accepted, with big examples like slavery. To look negatively now upon those now is not exactly fair.

And yes, civillians die in war. That is just a fact. They are not specifically targetted. But when you need to bomb a weapon factory, there will be people inside it. That's unavoidable. The point however is that you're destroying their capability to fight by destroying their weapons. These bombings are not to indiscrinently kill civillians.

How are the atom bombs different? Only because not only did we warn them, but it was our least bloody option. We kill 50,000 civillians with bombs--or millions when they defend every last inch of their country during an invasion? Are you saying that killing hundreds of times more of them is more "fair?" More humane? More just? The war wasn't going to end without one of those options, and both caused death. It's just what happens with war. People die.

We're not fair? Our free elections aren't fair? Our due process isn't fair? Our humanitarian aid isn't fair? Our thrust for human rights around the world isn't fair?


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:13 pm:

Congratulations Captain Obvious! Saying that half of Vietnam disproved is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. OF COURSE THEY DISAGREED, WE WERE AIDING THEIR ENEMNY.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:22 pm:

JP:that was an asnwer to "We even help our enemys. Vietnam get's sent food and supplys all the time from air drops years after we lost to them."

Also, your first bomb drop was on a very populated region...

Did i ever say that the states weren't fair? But saying that they're THE MSOT FAIR liek that...come on.

please


By SliverKing on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:22 pm:

I know we arent supposed to get into personal flame wars and I dont intend to, but the blatant anti-american propaganda I'm reading on this board spread by tree-hugging hippie pacifists is sickening. No country is perfect, but to try to paint America as the world's monster is ridiculous. Its only because of the sacrifices made by previous generations of Americans, and the rest of the western world, that we all have the freedom to discuss these things. Years of lazy prosperity have made people complacent and whiny.
War is ugly business, its not fair, its not just, it means the loss of life, the destruction of property, theft, murder, orphans, famines, and every other dark part of human nature. But there are times when its a necessary evil. I'd rather see World War III than spend the next 50 years living in fear, at the mercy of madmen with bombs, because we dont have the stomach to do what is necessary. The message needs to be sent and a new international rule understood, those who encourage or even unofficially allow terrorists to operate will be held responsible for the actions of the terrorists. The world has suffered for too long at the hands of these savages.


By Milton (Milton) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:22 pm:

JP, Sylvester is just arguing to be a bastard. He has no idea of the pain that America is going through. He's pissing on our country because is it trendy for those leftist Euro-Canadian student activist types.

Evil was done. It's scarry for some people to realize that there is good and evil in the world. This is one of those events that only the irrational can rationalize. No rational human on the planet would believe that this attack was warrented.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:26 pm:

LOL!

I really have to show this to my school..They all think i'm a right wing extremist(especially the **** principal)


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:34 pm:

Yep, the US gives tremendous sacrifices to the world with things like WW2 so people like you can continue to have the freedom to be a bastard.


By Andrew, the Sphinx Slayer (Andrew) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:44 pm:

Sigh. This is off-topic, and probably not helpful, but:

Japan had no warning of the bombings. Hell, that didn't even know about nukes! And the 'millions of deaths theory' is disputible, to say the least.

As for the second bomb being needed to 'convince' the japanese, that's a load of BS as well.
They only had a week between the bombings; that wasn't even enough time for them to work out what the hell had happened! And the US sent no ultimatums, no threats - the just nuked civilian targets.
The japanese government, even before hiroshima; was teetering on the edge of surender; there was a 1 vote difference between surender and war a month previous, and one of the 'continue' people said he would have agreed to surrender if they could have kept the emperor as head of state.
-----
America is the greatest nation in the world, and I don't understand why so many countrys hate us and want us destroyed? I could understand if say Russia was the world super power and everyone hated them because they don't allow free elections, and have a poor government, but America is probebly the most fair nation on this planet.
---
Sigh. Two quick points
1) Part of the reason so many people dislike american is exactly that attitude. OK, you're a superpower - that doesn't mean you need to be so arrogant.
2) American is not the free-est or most fair nation - name another democracy who's election was decided in court?
----

And I do not think American's were danceing in the streets when the bomb was dropped on Japan. In fact many americans protested it, and cryed for the Japanese loss of life. We were glad when they surrendered because then the war came to an end and no more lives would be lost. War is never good.
---
I'll bet both my kidneys that their were americans dancing in the streets when the found out. I'll bet there are palestinians upset by what happened 911.


So, look, in short: This is the worst act of terror the world has ever witnessed. Bar none.
However, america, don't delued yourselves that the bombings of hiroshima, and moreso nagasaki, were in there own ways awful acts of terror. Mittigated by the fact that you were at war and a large number of other circumstances, certainly and no doubt.

Sigh. I've said this badly. Don't construe any of the above as even vague agreement with what sylvester is saying. I'm also unconvinced that starting a war is the best solution to get from this.

Andrew, damn glad that it isn't his call.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:49 pm:

Hey Guys...


Sorry, like I've said before I don't have modern equipment like coputers, televions, electricity, etc. I, much later, checked my email at my girlfirend's (there I said it Az are you friggin' happy?) house but I had problems getting on BD.

I would just save the debates for afterward people heal a bit.

--Matt


By gizzard on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 09:03 pm:

> i wanted to say, that those terrorists or
> villain countries have no way to declar war
> officially to the US, caus they would have no
> chance. so they make their terroristic war,
> their only way to hurt the US.

A terror campaign has never been an effective weapon. You cannot break the spirit of a country with terror, and you marginalize your own cause by using means that all civilized people condemn.

Terrorism is the bitter spite of people so corrupted by their struggle that they no longer care whether their actions help or hurt their cause. Like Melville said, "For hate's sake, I stab at thee!"

I cant think of a better definition a Chaotic Evil act than to kill without purpose, without regard, without hope, just for the sake of hate.

And I cant believe that any thinking person would stand forward on this Board as an apologist for terrorists.


By gizzard on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:03 pm:

> As for the second bomb being needed
> to 'convince' the japanese, that's a load
> of BS as well. They only had a week between
> the bombings; that wasn't even enough time
> for them to work out what the hell had
> happened! And the US sent no ultimatums, no
> threats - the just nuked civilian targets.

All of the statements above are wrong; an impressive achievement.

The Japanese leaders initially rejected the Allied ultimatum because of its call for "unconditional" surrender. Hirohito and his government were concerned that "unconditional surrender" would allow the Emperor himself to be held responsible for the war. After the second atomic bomb, Togo notified the Allied powers that Japan would surrender as long as "[the Potsdam Declaration] does not comprise any demand which predjudices the perogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler." IE, Hirohito wanted to remain Emperor after the war. After a deliberately obtuse reply by the American Secretary of State the Japanese command debated for another 4 days before announcing their surrender. They were not "confused" about what was happening, they were maneuvering to assure the Emperors political survival in the post-war period; a goal that they ultimately succeeded in.


By CF (Cf) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:08 pm:

An utter, utter tragedy.
However, there is no reason to attack each other. Everything has more than one side. _NO_ person had this coming, but this was no huge surprise though. Is it unlikely that what have caused the hatred for America as shown by the celebrating Palestinians is the same that drove these fanatics to kamikaze into wtc. Apparently, there is an extreme contempt for the US amongst some people (I am not one of them however). This contempt stems from the US foreign policy. Arming Iraq against Iran... Arming and supporting Israel, giving them weaponry they use to terrorize Palestinians.. I see the rationale they use, as I see the rationale from the patriots on this board. This didn't happen for no reason. The targets were not coincidences. The terrorists goal were obviously not to kill innocents, but to take out important buildings. For the terrorists, this is war and has been for a long time. I am in no way defending their actions, but tried to present what is most likely their side to the story. Killing innocents cannot be justified. People do the most grusome things for "the cause" though, like the grownups in Northern Ireland spitting on and throwing stones at young girls because they believe in the same god as they do, but in a different way. Sickening, but even they have their (twisted) reasons.

This is nothing to fight over though, we all agree that it sucks bigtime.

--
Chris


By Rorschach, the Lurker with Wisdomy Stuff (Rorschach) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:09 pm:

You All are sick motherfuckers. WAR! NUKES!???? you guys fucking flipping a fucking nut! You know the others, the "THEM" have families, too! Fer cripes sake, war and death are BADDDD! okay besides we don't know who did it anyways
Rorschach
(Ps. also checking in from PA)


By Andrew, the Sphinx Slayer (Andrew) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:59 pm:

The Japanese leaders initially rejected the Allied ultimatum because of its call for "unconditional" surrender.
---
At no point did the japanese government recieve an ultimatum threatening the use of nuclear weapons, as far as I know.

IE, Hirohito wanted to remain Emperor after the war. After a deliberately obtuse reply by the American Secretary of State the Japanese command debated for another 4 days before announcing their surrender. They were not "confused" about what was happening, they were maneuvering to assure the Emperors political survival in the post-war period; a goal that they ultimately succeeded in.
----
Sure. But after hiroshima there was not sufficient time before nagasaki for them to really have a firm grasp on what just happened. It was the first nuclear strike - do you think they even knew what had really happened, or that it could be done again? There is no real evidence that nuclear strikes were required to win the war.
Japan was teetering on the verge of surender anyway. The real reasons for dropping the bomb were all about Russia. They wanted to show the russians what they could do, and they wanted the war over before the risk of russian advance in the east became too great.


By Sssmwc (Sssmwc) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:01 pm:

War is bad w/o a doubt, but once a country is attacked a nation has a duty to defend itself, its citizens, and its interests as its number one priority. The people who did this will pay. Hopefully we will insure that we have the proper information first so we can carpet bomb those responsible. Is war a reprehensible act? Absolutely. Is it just in this case? Absolutely. At the same time you do have to look from the viewpoint of the Middle East. The average Muslim is just like you normal Christian or Jew. They all follow the same core tenets that guide each of the Abrahamic faiths. Each of the faiths do interpret things differently. IF (and that is huge if) the people who did are of Islamic faith they have a skewed view of their religion as I understand it. Just as it is in Christianity and Judaism, suicide is the ultimate unpardonable sin. This shit about being guarenteed a ticket to heaven by dying for the cause is pure crap. The history of the middle east will tell you that Arab scholars of many centuries ago were responsible for salvaging the works of ancient Greece. The people who did this are no more true Muslims IMHO than the people who led the Inquisition were christians. Those people deserve to meet their maker by any means necessary. I do hope that we can direct our wraith against them alone w/o the loss of more civilians.


By Raven (Raven) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:36 pm:

First of all, my feelings have changed on Sylvester Drastically. I used to respect him, but now I almost want to look down apon him.

I never said "America is the most fair nation in the world". Please read before you post, I said America is probebly one of the most fair nations.

Of course America has it's flaws, every country does.

And I never said the bombing on Japan was right. However compairing it to a terrorist attack is seriously off base. If you were in Trumans shoes, what would you have done? Risked loosing millions of both american and japanese lives (and probebly utterly destroying every inch of japan). Or causeing 50,000+ deaths to end the war completly? The two of the options are both horrible, absolutly nightmareish, but such is war.

You also do need a lesson in history Syvester. America was trying to stop the spread of communism, which is obviously a poor government compaired to democracy because we live in an in-perfect world. If everyone was perfect, then communism would be ideal. But why would someone work hard if they can slack off and get paid the same ammount as everyone else? This is the flaw in communism. And this is why we did not want this poor establishment to spread to unfortunate Vietnam. But because russia promised direct relife via food and jobs, it was more appealing. The Democracy government is a slower effect as it is based on free enterprise and one self's determinateion to work hard for better pay.

As you can see south korea is alot better off now as a democracy than its norther counterpart. Unfortunatly South vietnam also had a poorer ruler, and a corrupted government. But years later the USA sends relife food and supplys to both north and south vietnam. After all we created alot of the relife corps and groups who help those unfortunate countrys.

And stateing that I am brainwashed is laughable. I couldn't be further from brainwashed, I always speak my own opinions and am not influenced by what anyone tells me. I am also not a religious fanatic of any kind, personally I don't really belive in religion, I see it as just an excuse to explain what science has yet to reveal to us. I don't like thinking that my life is undercontroll of someone above who does whatever they want with me.

I do think there are alot of arrogant American's, such as those above posts to "annhialate all of afghanistan" and "nuke everyone" sort of ideal.

But to consider the bombing of Japan as devious an act as a terrorist attack is horrible. And to wish terrorist attacks on ANY country is horrible. And whoever cheered when they bombed Japan is as ignorant as the palistinians.


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 12:43 am:

milton: i know enough about the marshall plan, and i also know how the US industry proftited from the destruction of europe, and the US firms, who got bargains to build it up.
the profit from this was higher as the marshall plan costed, if i remember the figures correctly.
and if you think i'm naiv enough to believe, the US interfered in WW2 in europe caus to help european democracies or to stop the cruelties, you're sick.
the main reason was, that they knew, if germany would have won this war and controlled europe (and they were only one step away in november 1941), that this would have been really bad news for the future of the US, too. and nazi scientists were also researching the atomic bomb, but outraced by enrico fermi (thank god for that).
and you really should learn something about the facts of history.
and there was a post where something like "now we know what auschwitz was like" posted. it's very early in the morning here, and i hope i'm too sleepy to get the meaning of this. caus if that guy thinks, what happened two days ago in NYC and washington can be compared to the expiriences of being in auschwitz in WW2, he is pretty sick.
and about the guy who said about the right to nuke afghanistan or palestina:
what if a villain country with nuclear weapons misbehaves? do you then have also any right to destroy it, and provole a nuclear war?

to rakso: there are not only innocent children and women in afghanistan and palestina, i think the majority of the male population is also innocent there.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 01:20 am:


Quote:

I just read something very interesting on the "Rumor Mill". What about the thousands of innocents that died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 due to american A-Bombs?




What about the thousands of innocents who were killed when Japan invaded my country hours after they visited Pearl Harbor?

I hate to sound callous, but I think that saved thousands more lives, including Japanese civilians who would've been saved had the Allies been forced to invade Japan. Without going into the discussion whether or not Japan would've surrendered anyway...


By gizzard on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 02:12 am:

Before I start, I'll apologize for being snippy about this in my last post. There is a lot of bad history (and worse philosophy!) being spouted on this Board and the previous post set me off for some reason. Inexplicable, as Andrew is at least in the ballpark here with his comments. So, sorry.

> At no point did the japanese government recieve > an ultimatum threatening the use of nuclear
> weapons, as far as I know.

OK, but they did recieve an ultimatum, the Potsdam Declaration. Its not really practical to threaten people with a "nuclear weapon" when no one knew at the time what that might be. The original claim was "the US sent no ultimatums, no threats - the just nuked civilian targets" which just isnt true. Which isn't even to get into whether an industrial city is a "civilian" target during wartime.

> Sure. But after hiroshima there was not
> sufficient time before nagasaki for them to
> really have a firm grasp on what just happened.
> It was the first nuclear strike - do you think
> they even knew what had really happened, or
> that it could be done again?

In February B-29s firebombed Tokyo, killing over 80 thousand people; these sort of attacks continued through June, destroying most major Japanese cities. In comparison, the immediate death toll at Hiroshima (in August) was around 120 thousand, and at Nagasaki it was 40 thousand. If the lives of the Japanese people were a priority to the Emperors government the war would have ended early in 1945 when large scale bombing began. The atomic bombs did not change the war situation materially - but symbolically, they forced the Japanese government to consider what it had been avoiding for half a year.

I think it misrepresents the historical situation to say "They only had a week between the bombings; that wasn't even enough time to work out what the hell had happened." The Japanese government debated before the Emperor for nearly a week *after* Suzuki briefed the War Council on the Hiroshima attack. They were trying to decide whether to attach one or *four* conditions to their "unconditional" surrender! Not trying to figure out what an A-Bomb was and how it affected the war.


By Andrew, the Sphinx Slayer (Andrew) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 03:06 am:

Gizzard: When did they recieve the ultimatum? My understanding (which is from memory from my 3rd year uni histroy classes 3 years ago) was that no ultimatum was sent during that week, or the preceeding week. I could be mis-remembering this.

My memory also differs largely on the death toll figures - I thought the death figures were around 60 and 30, respectively (these may have been on-impact death tolls, rather than within the month death tolls, which are what you have. It doesn't really matter, of course.), but that's sort of neither here nor there. I think what the bombing forced the japanese government to face was that, with all the propaganda in the world, they could never hope to stop or even detect this kind of destructive force from a single plane.

However, before delving deeper into these discussions here, I'd just like to make a point which I was sort of trying to make in my initial post but wrote badly:

What the americans did in hiroshima and nagasaki was an act of bastardry, but a defensible one (1).
What happened the other day is in no way defensible, and is an act of unmittigated evil. Evil isn't a term I bandy about a whole lot, but there are no other reasonable terms. No justification exists. No act of america's, real or percieved, makes this ok. No-one has this kind of thing comming to them for anything.

Note that that last thing applies to america as well - NO ONE has this kind of thing coming to them, including whoever did this. An eye for an Eye is no way to run anything. Lock 'em up, throw away the key - fine. Death is no punishment to a fanatic.


(1) I am no longer willing to argue this point in this thread. If anyone wants to take up the discussion, that's cool - email me at
n***e@u***p.au
and we can talk about it. And by saying 'it is defensible' I am in no way saying 'I agree with those defenses' - I don't. I'm just saying there are rational (IMO wrong, but rational) arguements in defense of this act.


By perio on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 03:36 am:

if anyone here thinks that america hasn't been doing terrible things to other countries for years now...well...you're wrong. and if anyone would like some literature to educate yourself on this, please e-mail me and i'll gladly send you some or lead you to some resources that will help.

i think the point isn't that america did or did not "have it comming", but that NO ONE deserves this and NO ONE should have this comming to them.
justice -- yes. going nuclear -- get real.

the most important thing right now is to make sure that any survivors are rescued asap and that regards are sent to those directly and indirectly involved.

another thing that we must all make an effort to do is not let ugly things like RACISM come into this. today i had to stand in between three "outraged americans" that were about to beat the shit out of the old INDIAN couple that owns the corner store a block away from my house. they were shouting racial slurs and saying things like "we outta ship you all back home and just nuke every one of ya!" luckily they caught a glimpse of how foolish they looked at the time and left with no one getting hurt.

-this was terrible-

i'm american. and in a lot of ways am very happy about that. i think henry rollins said it best when he said, "James Brown, the godfather of soul, could've never come from albania...it just wouldn't have worked." :) but seriously, everyone PLEASE realize that the people living here that came from palestine, afghanistan, or any other country for that matter did not fly those planes into the trade centers. they're just people who are trying to earn a living here and make a future for themselves and their families. don't let emotions cause you to do anything like what those guys did today. i'm not saying that anyone on this site would, just something i thought should be said.


By Big Blue on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 07:14 am:

Hey Dante, you're my favourite guy to quote :)


Quote:

the people that did this obviously have no regard for innocent human life (don't start on the differing views of "innocent", I think almost all cultures
will agree the victims were innocent) and as such should be wiped out


actually they wiped themselves out already... and, no, innocent is, as I already told you not a cultural constant. German's thought in WW2 all Jews are guilty, since they were brainwashed by propaganda. Christian believe(d) that all humans are guilty, because according to their mythology an ancient couple ate an apple. Some people may believe all Americans are guilty because they saw them cheering in TV when their countries were attacked and their neighbours killed. It is all a matter how of how much you know and of how much you think about what you seem to know.

Just to clarify this again: Of course I also believe that all (or at least most) of the victims were innocent and definitely nobody deserved death since nobody ever does deserve it. BUT what is the point in killing more innocent people? Is this justice?

You see, it is very easy to talk about another culture which you absolutely cannot comprehend and claim how stupid and uncivilized they are. Unfortunately such claims lead to strong feelings on both sides.

I understand that after such a catastrophy self-reflection and criticality is not easy, since emotions try to extinguish rational thoughts. But you (I am not referring to Dante, but to the whole community) really should try, for the sake of civilized behaviour.


By Milton (Milton) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 07:24 am:

"Lock 'em up, throw away the key - fine. Death is no punishment to a fanatic."

It's beyond locking up the terrorist and throwing away the key. It's a war. In 1941 Roosevelt didn't say that he was goint to bring Japan to justice, he said that he was going to bring them to their knees. That's the situation we are in now. Special Forces, combined with air strikes, will most likely be eliminating terrorist thrests in Afghanistan within a couple of days. America has the right and the duty to defend it's self, and it will do so in a responsible way.


By Big Blue on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 07:38 am:

BTW, I find it not very helpful to recite and discuss the complete history of the last century. And the discussion about who started anything is not helpful either. It reminds me of two stubborn children accusing each other that the other one started the fight and each of them wants to have the last punch.

Nonetheless I cannot resist to say a few words:

On the nuclear bombs: The first one is debatable, though I whish you good look to defend your theories in Japan, but the second one was nothing but a brutal demonstration of power and a cynical long-term scientific experiment.

On the article posted by JP: a nice article to cheer americans up. extremely biased and full of half-truths, but cheering up is maybe important right now.

On the role of America during and after WW2: Raoul made some good points - of course egoistic motivations played a big role. I am still extremely grateful for their help in eliminating the Nazis and the Marshal-plan. The other side of the coin, however, is that many Nazi-scientists were very welcome in US and this is one of the reasons why America developed into the #1 scientific country.

On the role of America today: If it would try to show less "I am the leader"-mentality and a bit more community skills it would really be a nice country (I only know California, though, so the rest of my knowledge is based on discussion with colleagues at conferences, in the net and on various media) - well, of course no country is perfect - there are things I still wouldn't like, like those radical Christian groups and so on, the turbo-cpitalistic attitude etc.
Moreover I have great respect for the american common-sense and the "lets do it"-attitude shown by people who don't deliver their brain at the local TV-station.

I probably should visit you one day or the other :) ( I just hope I don't get imprisoned if I let my children bath naked in public ;)


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 08:39 am:


Quote:

Before I start, I'll apologize for being snippy about this in my last post. There is a lot of bad history (and worse philosophy!) being spouted on this Board and the previous post set me off for some reason. Inexplicable, as Andrew is at least in the ballpark here with his comments. So, sorry.




This should be enlightening... go on.


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 11:17 am:

quote:
"actually they wiped themselves out already... and, no, innocent is, as I already told you not a cultural constant.
German's thought in WW2 all Jews are guilty, since they were brainwashed by propaganda"

big blue, not all germans (or austrians) were brainwashed. a large part of the population didn't really know what was going on. that was the reason why the nazis built the "vernichtungslager" like auschwitz and treblinka only in eastern europe and not in the reich.
and even the ones who were really brainwashed couldn't always justify the genocide in their heads, and as far as i am informed most concentration camps had a high rotation within their SS-guards, caus they couldn't take it, and a lot begged to be sent to the eastern front to get away from being a guard in a KZ.
maybe you don't know it, but even eichmann and rudolf höss (commander of auschwitz) applied to be transfered to the eastern front, but himmler rejected those requests.
so don't say the germans have been brainwashed, so they accepted the guilt of the jews and wanted them to pay for it. i know, you used it as an example, but those things shouldn't be generalised.
or do you think goldhagen is right with his obscur theory about the collective guilt of the germans?


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 11:45 am:

Now, bear in mind I'm just throwing this out without making any statements of opinion attached to it: which famous German likened the Jews to rodents in need of extermination?

The answer is, of course, Martin Luther, the first Protestant.


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 11:55 am:

azhrei:
don't start this topic:
before the 20th century (or even 1945) most europeans and americans have been (latent) anti semites.
goethe and schiller most likely,
wagner richard and busch wilhelm for sure,
fontane quite sure.
shakespeare and william blake also, etc. etc.
and henry ford (his book the international jew is ridiculous)
your walt disney admired hitler, and even that IBM boss in the 30's about whom this book was written now (IBM and the holocaust).
what i want to say is: the consens that antisemitism is no good was found in 1945, after the nazis did this. stalin and churchil!(in the 20's he agitated against jews sometimes)also were antisemites. the germans didn't have that privileg to be the only rascists or antisemites.
and saying someting about antisemitism in the countries of eastern europe is needless (the nazis didn't even have to brainwash the people there that they helped them extincting the jewish population:()


By The Maxx,. the Guru of Foolishness (Maxx) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 12:03 pm:

A few things: of course America is flawed, as everyone else in the world is. Of course there are a few selfish reasons behind the acts of help the US has given. If there were no positive outcomes for the US, of course it wouldn't give billions of dollars and thousands of lives to defend others. No one does anything on that scale through the goodness of their hearts, to think so is to have your head somewhere it shouldn't be.

If you go far enough back into history, anyone can be blamed for starting conflicts, and you can find acts by any group that were largely unappreciated. Thus is life. Violence and malevolence is a cycle, it doesn't just spring up from nowhere. There are reasons behind EVERYTHING, though some reasons may be sick and twisted, and others purely irrational, there still are reasons.

Jesus, get away from foreign policy and politics for just a second. The loss of life here is the most important thing. Even if you are not profoundly affected by it, at least show enough respect to the others here that are, and stop spouting your hate for America for just a week or two. This should be a tragedy that transcends borders.

The Maxx

P.S. About the Atomic bombs: there are very few people I know that don't think that that was a tragedy. So don't go assuming things about Americans that you have no business doing. And you would be hard-pressed to find anyone here that thinks the war in Vietnam was necesary, but at the time, it seemed so to the people in charge. People make mistakes, there are no exceptions.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 12:10 pm:

I think collective guilt was more appropriate for the Japanese.


By Milton (Milton) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 01:16 pm:

Good post Maxx.

We have lost focus by the trendy Anti-Americanists on the mill. Their root argument is - US invaded Vietnam. US dropped Atomic Bombs on Japan. US has started conflict. US has taken sides. As such, the US deserved this.

Those anti-Americanists want the United States to solve conflict, but to keep their noses out. Stop the genocide in the Balkans and you are imperialistic. Don't stop the geoncide in Rawanda and you are irresponsible. Blame us for the bad things that we do and don't do, but give us no credit for the great things we do and have done. Rationalize all you want, anti-Americanists.

Bull shit. No one deserves this. It's pure evil.


By ahappyclown on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 01:21 pm:

Ok, I have to pop in here now. Regarding atomic weapons and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki: atomic bombs are no different from incendiary bombs except that 1) it only takes one atomic bomb to accomplish what hundreds/thousands of normal bombs are meant to accomplish and 2) the radioactivity. What about the bombing of Tokyo? How many innocent lives do you think were lost during that?
Regarding the destruction of the World Trade Center towers: humans used planes full of hundreds of innocent humans to destroy buildings full of thousands of innocent humans. The reason is unknown. The identity of the human who made the decision to do this is unknown. These are the facts, that's all. People are suffering because they have had their loved ones taken from them. People are suffering because their home has been threatened and their security compromised. People are angry and hateful because they cannot begin to understand why this has happened, nor should they be expected to.

The question is: do you take the broken eggs and make an omellette, or do you use the broken eggs as an excuse to break more eggs? Do we, as members of the human race, use this tragedy as an excuse to start WW3, or do we use it as an opportunity to show that we, as human beings, are capable of incredible compassion and forgiveness? This was just a reminder of how the human race, despite how long we've been here, is still capable of terrible atrocities against itself. Its no different from the Holocaust or the Crusades or the Khymer Rouge occupation of Cambodia, or any act of genocide or "ethnic cleansing" anywhere on the face of the planet.
The important thing is what we do now...love or hate. Hate begets hate, and violence begets violence. The same can be said for compassion and forgiveness. Will we lead by example and open the doors for a utopian society and an age of enlightenment, or will we let our uniquely human desire for revenge consume us?
Its a perfect time to tell someone close to you, or even a complete stranger that you love them. Its a perfect time to stop and admire the beauty in the world, even if you have to look a little closer these days.
Take your anger and do something productive with it. Volunteer at a soup kitchen. Give blood. Buy a homeless person lunch and give them a hug. Smile. Laugh. Laughter is contagious and universal.

Just had to try to soften some hearts, seeing as I've been a pacifist, bunny-hugger lately.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 01:49 pm:

Unfortunately, pacifism only works if everyone agrees to it. Otherwise, you end up with some violent bastards and a whole group of people who won't fight back.

Does anyone honestly believe that this will be the last of it? That these men will ever stop? That ANYWHERE who is not a direct ally is safe? If Israel fell, would men like bin Laden stop?

Let's not forget, these terrorists are people that can point a plane at a building and ACCELERATE. These are not reasoning beings that can be dealt with through peaceful means. I wish that were the case, but it is not. Terrorists like this are a threat to all humanity and the enemies of civilization.


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 01:53 pm:

happyclown: beside telling strangers i love them, i agree to your post pretty much.

milton: i don't want the US to solve conflicts, and i don't know anyone here who requests this.
what did you solve in albania?
nothing, now the serbian minority there is surpressed by the albanians, discriminated and i don't like this either. and your US troops didn't give a fuck about the war crimes of the UCK (if you know who they are)
the US always interfer to show how powerful they are. the strike against serbia was nothing more than testing new toys of the US army.
and about ruanda: i don't remember anybody who said, that you are irresponsible. the people of ruanda didn't want the US troops there as far as i remember.
wasn't it that disaster where dead GI's were pulled through the streets in ruanda by the people, tied to ropes?


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 02:00 pm:

What if Raoul just learns how to use capital letters and line breaks?


By Milton (Milton) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 02:08 pm:

"wasn't it that disaster where dead GI's were pulled through the streets in ruanda by the people, tied to ropes?"

That was Somalia, buddy. Same continent, different countries. God Damn there are some ignorant opinions being voiced on this mill.

We are in pain. A little support would be nice.


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 02:39 pm:

And it wasn't by the people. It was by warlords. We went there to deliver humanitarian aid to the people there because of a famine. The warlords stole it and attacked our troops.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 02:51 pm:

Those good intentions have screwed up before. The US supported our Ferdinand Marcos, if anyone remembers Imelda Marcos and her shoes. But I seriously doubt the Americans on this Mill intend to screw up the world. Making mistakes is one thing, of course, but "the US had it coming"?

I can talk about those and still not buy this "had it coming" hogwash.


By Big Blue on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 03:03 pm:

@raoul: yes, I was oversimplifying. But in terms of trends I am correct. I don't believe in "collective" guilt. I believe that what happened in Germany can happen anywhere, given the right (or rather wrong) circumstances.

@Azhrei:


Quote:

Unfortunately, pacifism only works if everyone agrees to it.


Unforunately, bellicism only works if everyone "who is not quite like us" is dead. I know what you mean, though. But the opposite of "lets make war to Afghanistan" is not "let the terrorists run free because we are all so peaceful" - there is a large amount of grey between black and white. E.g. "lets catch the terrorists and their organisations and imprison them" - how about that?


By Dozer on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 03:14 pm:

First of all, let me express deep condolences for all humans in the US and especially in the NY area. This terrorist attack has changed our world, East, South and West alike, and we can only hope that our world stays free and a place to live in without constant fear. That is what we have to work for together.
I fear all civilised countries being hampered by security barriers, the freedom of movement and travel being shut down with armed controls. I personally don't want that to happen.

Almost everybody on this threat tried to find a suitable, comparable event in history. Is there any?
All other non-war attacks on the civil society have caused way less deaths than the collapse of the WTC. I explicitly exclude war here. A war is the biggest crime that can ever happen. The war in Northern Ireland, the war in Palestine, the genocide in Ruanda, the war in Kongo, the Apartheid in South Africa, the war in Kosovo, the Gulf war, the Vietnam war, the Korean War, WW2 and the Holocaust: Those are all landmarks of violence in recent history and had more casualties than the collapse of the WTC.

But on 9/11, for the first time in the post-war history, a war-like act has been executed by an **unknown enemy**. (It's technically called "asymmetrical warfare".) Nobody saw this coming, even though Osama Bin-Laden had recently announced "major attacks on the US" (words paraphrased), and the CIA has predicted massive terrorist attacks in the first part of this century. And because of the unprecedented terrible quality of this attack, the US deserve all help the world can give.
With one exception: US retaliation must not lead to the unjust and spontaneous eradication of a country and needs the consent of at least NATO, better UNO.

The abstract fact that the WTC was successfully destroyed can be welcomed by everybody disagreeing with the turbo-capitalist world we live in.
But nothing, absolutely nothing, deserves even one human live to be extinguished, less so 20,000.

Dozer
(from Germany)


By Dante (Dante) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 03:16 pm:

Big Blue said "I probably should visit you one day or the other ( I just hope I don't get imprisoned if I let my children bath naked in public ;) "

Acutally, in most parts of America, bathing naked in public is a heinous crime worthy of the death penalty....;)


By Dozer on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 03:25 pm:

And about "The US had it coming": As a symbol for the western world the USA are a prime target for terrorist (esp. islamist) attacks. That's why they "had it coming". Not in any other way. I really hope whoever invented this term (Sylvester?) meant it like this. No one deserves the loss of any life.

Dozer


By Boltbait, the Master of the Hunt (Boltbait) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 03:47 pm:


Quote:

milton: i don't want the US to solve conflicts, and i don't know anyone here who requests this.




Well, the EU just couldn't make up it's mind to do anything to stop the genocide in Kosovo until we stepped in and lead the way. Do you think we really wanted to deploy into Yugoslavia? We went because we felt we could end the killing and do some good. The EU followed us in, and shares in that responsibility. Most of the world saw this as a *good* thing, Raoul.


Quote:

the US always interfer to show how powerful they are. the strike against serbia was nothing more than testing new toys of the US army.




I'm guess I'm glad in a way to see that Europeans are capable of the same stereotypical nonsense that Americans are. You're no better than the people that say that French people are all unbathed, lovesick clowns that watch Jerry Lewis reruns all night while sipping wine. Offensive, isn't it? Your flat, stereotypical generalizations are no better, though I'm sure it does wonders to simplify your world view.


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 05:08 pm:

Alright. I've really had enough of the 'good guy, bad guy' philosophy on this thread. So I'm going to say what I think WILL happen, not what SHOULD happen.

1) There are reports that the Taliban government has Osama ben Laden in custody and is preparing to hand him over to American authorities. Recent reports indicate that the likelihood of ben Laden's involvement in this at >90%.

2) If the Taliban continues to support ben Laden as they have done in the past, we will probably declare war WHETHER OR NOT HE IS THE PERPETRATOR. We've really been hunting this guy for awhile now, and unless we get him now we will use everything in our power to punish those who shelter him. Not a nuclear strike, but just a massive campaign against the Taliban government.

Essentially, it's either we get ben Laden willingly from the Afghan government, or we go to war to retrieve him. The American people, quite frankly the only people who really matter here to the American government who would really like to get re-elected, demand nothing less.


By Nix (Nix) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 05:13 pm:

Dozer, nato has said "An attack on one is an attack on all." how is that for Nato support/permission?


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 06:17 pm:

Well, Secretary of State, Colin Powell said today that any countries that don't comply with America's Terrorist hunt, and soon, will basically be bombed off the map. Even China, with the recent tension between the two countries, has pledged to help in any way possible.


By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 06:33 pm:

Even Pakistan, one of only 3 countries in the world that even recognizes Afghanistan is giving us their full cooperation.


By Gzeiger (Gzeiger) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 07:27 pm:

Actually, Nix, that's a quote from the treaty more than a declaration of intent. Not that I disagree with you :p

Elrond - while I know how some Americans feel about China, it is important to remember how China feels about Afghanistan. I suspect they are happy for an excuse to blow the place up, although perhaps a little put out that the US gets involved in doing so.


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:12 pm:

GZeiger-True, China is probably a bit happy for that excuse but you can be sure that they were not entirely bummed about the U.S. getting a kick in the head.


By Dante (Dante) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 11:30 pm:

"Hey Dante, you're my favourite guy to quote :)"

I missed that one this morning...

Uh...great....(Dante's thinking about most of the people he quotes in real life - he quotes them because they're idiots and say some of the stupidest things possible.)....yah, that's great..


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 01:50 am:


Quote:

terrorist (esp. islamist)




Stop reinforcing the stupid terrorism = Islam hogwash.


By Dozer on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 05:06 am:

Rakso, to clarify this: I said "the USA are a prime target for terrorist (esp. islamist) attacks". That wasn't meant to put terrorism = Islam. I said the US are a prime target for terrorists, and especially so for Islamist terrorists. Okay?
I really don't want to reinforce the loathing of the Islam.

Dozer


By timw on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 05:37 am:

I can't believe some of the things I'm hearing.

Suppose your sister gets raped. She comes to you crying and hurt and the first thing you say to her is, "Look at how you're dressed. And you probably flirted with the guy. You had this coming."

That would be a cruel, mean and heartless thing to say. But that's what I hear left and right. The bloodiest day on American soil since the battle of Gettysburg and now people have the audacity to start digging up the dirty laundry of my nation? How dare you. Thousands of our fellow citizens, men and women were murdered in cold blood. And yet, somehow, WE are supposed to feel responsible, as if we brought this on ourselves?

I care nothing for the motivations of the terrorists, or their reasons for perpetrating this atrocity. I have no sympathy for their cause. I do not want to hear their reasons, their arguments, I wish to know nothing about their ideologies. There was a time, only a few days ago, when I would have listened to and might even have been sympathetic to their charges, and been willing to listen. But that was before a multitude of innocent civilians were slaughtered without even facing their killers.

Did the thousands who died on Sept 11 have a chance to defend themselves? To reason with the monsters who carried this out? To plead for their lives? No.

If your sister were raped, you would first look to care for her and tend to her wounds as best as you could. Then you would seek out justice against the monster who performed this horrible act. And it would be much, much, later, if ever, that you would think to lecture her on how she should have avoided the situation.

At this moment, my heart is closed to anything but uncovering the perpetrators of this act and bringing them to justice. Death would be a kindness to such men as these, who would at least have time to prepare to meet their maker, a mercy which they did not show to their victims in the slightest.


By SliverKing on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:57 am:

islamic may not directly equal terrorist, but it doesnt take much of an analysis to figure out that most terrorist activity comes from muslim fundamentalists. Just do a quick checklist

Munich Olympics --> muslims
Marine Barracks Lebanon --> muslims
First World Trade Center attack --> muslims
USS Cole --> muslims
Oklahoma City --> white ex-marine
Filipino seperatists kidnap tourists and behead them --> muslims
2 US embassies --> muslims
A dozen hijacked and/or bombed airplanes --> muslims
Pentagon --> muslims
2nd World Trade Center attack (both buildings destroyed, current missing/dead count at 5K) --> muslims

You can do the math as easily as anyone else. When you hear that something got blown up, you can bet money 2 to 1 that it was a muslim and win more than you lose. Thats where the stereotype comes from, and thats part of what feeds the hate.

none of the above is propaganda, opinion, bias, or value judgements, its the cold numbers.
Draw your own conclusions.


By Big Blue on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:44 am:

LOL Dante, sorry, I didn't mean it that way - I have stopped to quote stupid people (or otherwise Rat would have been #1). It is too time consuming and actually one tends to adapt the level after some time ;)


Quote:

Acutally, in most parts of America, bathing naked in public is a heinous crime worthy of the death penalty....;)


LOL - but WTF is heinous?

Er... BTW, you quoted me quite often - so how should I interprete that ijn view of your remark ;)

@SilverKing:

Quote:

none of the above is propaganda, opinion, bias, or value judgements, its the cold numbers.
Draw your own conclusions.


my conlusion is that you have provided a highly selective list. Not biased? *sigh*


Quote:

If your sister were raped, you would first look to care for her and tend to her wounds as best as you could. Then you would seek out justice
against the monster who performed this horrible act. And it would be much, much, later, if ever, that you would think to lecture her on how
she should have avoided the situation.


Yes, that is a sensible order to sort things out in this case. Although I prefer not needing to lecture her in the first place. Prevention causes less trouble than cure, and some things, unfortunately, cannot be prevented. But you are right. It is not sensible to lecture the victims shortly afterwards. Though I daresay that most of the people speaking on this board are not more a victim than I am. I have a cousin in NY, so I have the same right to be concerned or angry as anybody else with relatives or friends in NY (and, I would claim, but please correct me if I am wrong, more right than some US citizens without relatives or friends there who feel just angry for nationalistic reasons). I chose to analyse carefully instead (and failed sometimes), because I wanted to absorb at least a little bit of the rage and anger I felt in some of the initial postings. I don't know if I managed to do so, but I feel that this is about the only contribution to help that I can make right now, sitting far away from NY. Analysis is important, or else similar things will repeat to happen. And now is the time when people are listening. In a few weeks only few people will be interested in this topic anymore.

BTW, my cousin e-mailed me yesterday from NY - she's fine :)


By SliverKing on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:55 am:

My list was very selective, I selected every major terrorist action I could remember. Am I the all knowing keeper of terrorist history, of course not, but I'm not trying to be. I'm trying to explain why the average person would associate Islam and Terrorists; because from the first ten instances that pop to mind, 9 were muslims. That was my only point.
I'm just as ashamed as anyone of the folks going around picking on Arab-Americans, but to a simple man, the numbers seem fairly straightfoward, and the association is an easy one to make.


By Big Blue on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 09:21 am:

I am not a terrorist expert either, but here's my own (on purpose) biased list:

- Oklahoma (nationalists, executed some time ago, you probably know more about them than me)
- Franz Fuchs in Austria, the letter bomb terrorist, killed and injured several innocent people (a nationalist, caught in 97, comitted suicide a few years ago in jail)
- several dozen of neonazi riots in Germany, which ended with the dead of innocent foreigners (nationalists)
- the death of Ernst-Kirchweger in Austria during a demonstration, caused by a neo-nazi (admittedly not so recently, but he was killed by a nationalist)
- several terroristic acts of the ETA during the last decades which ended with the death of numerous innocent people (nationalist Basque group)
- attacks from the National Liberation Front of Corsica from 1988-2000 which ended with the death of several innocent people (nationalist Corsique group)
- Welsh, Scottish, Irish nationalist groups with "activities" that led to the death of several innocent people (nationalists)
- British nationalists, killing innocent people with origins in Pakistan or India (all killed by nationalists)
- ...

I will stop here, because, as I said, I am no specialist and I hope you got the picture anyhow. From my list you will certainly conclude that nationalists are the main root of terrorism, if you consume it blindly.
From your list people will conclude the same for muslims.

BTW, this biased list I have provided is the explanation for the comparison of Conservatives (which often have nationalistic attitudes) with neonazis and Hitler.

If you don't think and consume only monochromatically biased information, you can jump to conclusions at the speed of sound. If you try to listen to the other side, you might start to think.


By SliverKing on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 09:38 am:

With the exception of Oklahoma, and thanks to some other posters here the Basque nationalists, I had never heard of the events on your list. Frankly most of them were on the order of "several people" or even individuals killed. While I was focusing more on the order of hundreds or thousands. If your point was that any information can be skewed, I certainly can't argue that.
The list I gave was the first terrorist things that came off the top of my head. Your average American would likely come up with a similar (if smaller) list. My point is that it doesnt take an irrational or hateful mind to take that information and conclude that Muslims are behind most major terrorism. Does that mean all muslims are evil or even the majority, no, not at all. People who make that jump are doing so out of anger, ignorance, and the need for vengeance. But to say that the muslim-terrorist connection isnt there is wishful thinking by folks who cant accept that some stereotypes are based on reality.


By Big Blue on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 10:14 am:

The fact that you haven't heard of them is more related to filtered perception than to actual facts, IMO (apart from the Ernst-Kirchweger story, which is too local and had "only 1" victim to be of interest, but these were the first events that came to my mind - there you see the cultural differences). Of course, most of these acts were less "spectacular" than the most recent attack, but the thousands of dead people are still dead.

Apart from the fact that I find it an insult to the memory of the victims to compare actual numbers to determine which event was "worse" it is not even true what you are saying about exclusive muslim-terrorism. Sure, there are terrorists which do their "job" for fanatic religious (which in our century means mostly muslim and christian) reasons, like the terrorists you referred to and the IRA. And there are at least as many fanatic nationalists. And I did not count their victims, but if you allow me to average over the last century I count more than 1000 people killed for nationalistic reasons per day (in sum more than 50 millions, most of them during WW2, and I am being "modest"). But I do hate such number comparisons, because it does not do justice to the victims.

If you ask an average European (s)he will give you a list which contains about 50% religious terrorist strikes and about 50% political - mainly nationalistic in the last 2 decades, formerly also communistic.

Because most of them don't see Muslims per se as evil (I am not saying that you do it, but this hate seems to me deeply embedded in America - you notice it in american movies and in details like your biased list). It is of course not your fault. I think you try to be as objective as reasonably achievable. But unfortunately, this is not enough. Because after all, the terrorists also thought objectively, that what they did was right since in their point of view America started a war on them some decades ago when they helped Israel.

And I am still not even mentioning all the victims of capitalism, colonialism, communism etc.
Do you think, so many people die due to Earthquakes in poor countries because they are stupid or slow or live close to vulcanos? No, it is because they can't afford solid houses. Do you know how many people die of hunger each second? Or how many die of AIDS in Africa, since they either do not know about preservatives or the catholic church tells them how bad they are if they use them? How dare you start to compare numbers of dead people.

It was a tragedy, but please do not loose proportions. The terrorists will surely be identified (they are already working extremely hard on it), caught and convicted since US has almost global support. No need to dig in the past, it only hurts and scars might break up. Better look at the future, what could be the reason for this attacks and what can be done to prevent them in future (and I am not talking about military actions, because they change nothing).

P.S.: I am sorry if I sounded bitter or harsh, but I really do not like comparisons of number of victims. I hope you can understand that.


By Big Blue on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 10:19 am:

Man, did I really write this?

I am really sorry, I didn't want to re-heat the discussion. Though I agree with everything I have posted I should have done it with less emotions and more diplomatically.

*sigh* You see, I fail my own value system - but such is humanity, I fear.

Well, I think I should quit this discussion board for a while - to chill out :)


By Raoul, Supposed Model of Courtesy (Raoul) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:03 am:

milton: ok, then it was somalia and not ruanda, But as far as i remember the people helped the so called war lords to get you out of there.
And it makes no diffence if it was ruanda or somalia, caus it was an example.
AND the US had so many disasters, that i, as an european don't want to remember them all.
AND was ruanda then the disaster where CNN filmed your guys, had had floodlights on the GIs, so the enemy could see them easily approaching the coast?

a linebreak for RAKSO:)

and what does your population do for other countries? i don't mean your government (military "aid" mainly i guess), but the population?
here in austria (and in other european countries aswell) after each disaster always are huge donation campaigns, and the people really give a lot, and not only the government has to spend on foreign aid. the US society isn't known for being very social here. haifischkapitalismus (shark-capitalism).
today in the EUROPEAN UNION, there was silence minute here for the USA at 12:00 p.m. we also had one yesterday at 10:00 am
i'd like to know, if there would be such actions of collective solidarisation (symbolic) in the USA if such terrible things happen in europe.
i don't think so.
i think, in real the USA cares about no other country than itself. and your posts proofed this.
so stop talking the whole time that the US helps any country in the world any day any time.
i can't hear it anymore


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 12:01 pm:

Well, i think that it shows that everyone here has filtred informations by the medias.

Raoul:I tihnk i can say that americans can be VERY generous, much more so than my Quebecois neighbours(on average). Giving money is much more in the habits fo the enlish speaking populations in general here in Quebec than in that of the french speaking one.

Different sets of values, i guess.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 12:03 pm:

Also, do you really think that any country does NOT think about itself first?


By Psycho, the Horned God (Psycho) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 12:57 pm:

"This is for Psycho:

While you sit around with your friends going to bars that have pictures of George Bush with 'Wanted Dead or Alive' at the bottom, sipping your coffee and criticizing American Imperialism I want you to remember my great uncle. He died in Belgium in the fall of 1944. He was killed in action. He died, as did many Americans, preserving your freedom. He gave up his life so you could have the freedom to criticize our foreign and domestic policies. So as you sit on the Internet today (an American invention) and play a game or two of Magic (an American invention) and wear your American blue jeans and listen to American music, remember my Uncle, OK? "

I didn't see this earlier on. I could say I don't wear American Blue Jeans or like American Music much. but I'll just say: I'm very gratefull to the Americans that helped save Belgium from the Nazi's (and later the Soviets) but I think the US attitude has changed a lot after the war. (in my opinion again)


By Dante (Dante) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 02:34 pm:

Big Blue - I didn't take any offense, I was just trying to lighten things up a bit...

Dante

PS Here's definition of "heinous" from Webster's online dictionary -

Main Entry: hei·nous
Pronunciation: 'hA-n&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French haineus, from haine hate, from hair to hate, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German haz hate -- more at HATE
Date: 14th century
: hatefully or shockingly evil : ABOMINABLE

from what I remember of my Deutsch, "schrecklich" would be a suitable translation...maybe "ruchlos"..although that's not quite it (problem w/ translations, getting the connotaion right).


By Desert Fox on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:14 pm:

Raoul said:
"and what does your population do for other countries? i don't mean your government (military "aid" mainly i guess), but the population?"

Just as much as people from other countries do during an international crisis.

"here in austria (and in other european countries aswell) after each disaster always are huge donation campaigns, and the people really give a lot, and not only the government has to spend on foreign aid. the US society isn't known for being very social here. haifischkapitalismus (shark-capitalism). "

Well, people here do the same sort of thing. There's always some special interest group that does some sort of aid for others all over the world all the time. The problem is they don't get worldwide recognition for it. Do they want it? Not necessarily. They do it because they're good people, just like those in Austria and do the same thing. We don't hear about what your people do (just what your gov't does) just like you don't hear what our people do (just our gov't). Simple as that.

"today in the EUROPEAN UNION, there was silence minute here for the USA at 12:00 p.m. we also had one yesterday at 10:00 am
i'd like to know, if there would be such actions of collective solidarisation (symbolic) in the USA if such terrible things happen in europe.
i don't think so."

You're entitled to that opinion. If something on the scale of the attack on the US happened to an EU nation, I bet we would do the same thing. A tragedy is a tragedy whether it happens in the US or EU.

"i think, in real the USA cares about no other country than itself. and your posts proofed this.
so stop talking the whole time that the US helps any country in the world any day any time.
i can't hear it anymore"

Of course the US cares about itself. EVERY country looks out for #1 first. And if we're so inconsiderate to other countries, tell us what AUSTRIA does for countries all over the world. I'd love to hear THAT.


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:59 pm:


Quote:

i think, in real the USA cares about no other country than itself. and your posts proofed this.
so stop talking the whole time that the US helps any country in the world any day any time.
i can't hear it anymore




...and what is the job of government? Is it an international emergency aid faction? Hell no, government is meant to keep order and make life better for the majority of the people it governs. The U.S. didn't join WW2 to help out their European buddies, they did it because Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. During most of the time the U.S. has been a country, they have practiced an international policy called "Isolationism." Isolationism is exactly what it sounds like, we stay out of other people's business unless it affects us. It has only been since about the 1940's that the U.S. has strayed from this belief and it has seemed to bring only problems. Terrorists didn't try to destroy stuff in the 20's, even though America was about proportionately as powerful as today. It was because the U.S. looked out for its citizens first.


By mepersonthing on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 10:28 pm:

Elrond: that is not really true. There was an incident where a bomb exploded on Wall Street in the early 20's killing many people and causing significant damage. William McKinley was assassinated by anarchists- among the earliest 'terrorists' in our sense of the word- a century or more ago. These are merely incidents I can think of off the top of my head:

The 'filtered information' statement that has been repeated around is perfectly correct, and is the reason, as far as I can tell, for most of the bold claims and generalisations made here, either about groups of people they are not familiar with or about time periods. We cannot be expected to know as much about a region on the other side of the globe, a culture we have had no contact with, or a period decades before our births as we know about our own place and time. We just have to accept it and learn not put too much faith in our own flawed knowledge.


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 10:51 pm:

Leon Czolgosz worked alone, I think. While he was an anarchist, I think he was a solo operator.

On another note, for that he was electrocuted and his corpse was dissolved in sulfuric acid.


By Hyper Emotion Monster (Sylvester) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 10:54 pm:

wow...HARSH!


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 11:57 pm:

It was 1901 and he just capped the President of the United States. That was considered just.


By mepersonthing on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 05:34 pm:

He may have worked alone, but he was part of a movement and that wasn't the only assasination they engineered. The King of Italy and several other prominent figures were killed by anarchists around 1900. Nice information, though...


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