[Edited by Matt D'Avanzo, Asst. Maintainer]
"When playing against an Academy deck, it becomes important to work to disrupt the opponent’s combo"
Lol, I know, I know. But what else can you say? I kept it fairly direct I think. :P
Az simply wants to explain things very clearly to less experienced readers. ;)
Lol, you're the one who wanted me to add a line about the importance of countering Blood Moon!
I just tried to keep it to a "Do X versus Y" format for the matchups-- what else CAN you say about a combo deck besides "Stop the combo?"
"Outrace opponent" is another strategy - OSE should easily outrace Doomsday.
I can't read the primer, my browser dsiplays only the source code. What can I do?
Rightclick link and choose "Save as...". Then view the file from wherever you save it.
Wait, I don't get it? Isn't this deck just Keeper without White and Green?
Matt, I will kill you and feed you to JP.
I just wonder why you feel Duress is not a good addition to the deck. I watched Mal pilot an OSE to first place in Toronto and Duress was very useful...
if it's good in the metagame, play it. someone why doesn't know your metagame can't give sound advice, regardless of whether he created the deck or not.
Very nice, Darren. I like the fact that someone advocated the unconcern of Sligh to some people. It is a deck that deserves more credit. Altogether, nice primer. Some funny comments on the 'against so and so decks'.
I think the article was great.
I asked the question for good reason. ''if its good in the metagame play it" is not an answer.
We are looking for an optimum build that performs well in a variety of metagames. Darren discusses a number of his choices. I am wondering about his exclusions.
I can think of a lot of decks that I would like to have a Duress for. It is also a first turn play. I am guessing that he could just find no room for three Duress in the deck as he likes every card in it better. But I could see it in the side against combo.
any suggestions of sideboard cards or playstyle vs pandeburst? a double force of will backed up replenish is just tough. timetwister has proven to be a lifesaver. along with wastelands/mox monkey.
Damnit, it ate my whole thing about Duress and plain old U/b OSE.
Oh well, Duress just doesn't cut the SB if you have Red, and it doesn't make the maindeck either because Misdirection is better. Misdirection works against aggro better, and still works against control and doesn't require copious amounts of Black mana.
And I still think that U/b is just as strong as U/b/r. Fire/Ice does not make up for Cities in my opinion, and I dislike Zuran Orb (though I still fear red enough to SB it). Shaman's only strength over Keg is its ability to kill a Null Rod, and the mana is stronger with just U/b and more colorless removal.
The problem is that without red you will probably lose to dedicated control decks. Siding Duress is nice, but not nearly as effective as REB against mono-U or Miner against Keeper. I think now that FoF is gone, OSE took a big hit (Scrying is great, but multiples blow and Stroke of Azhrei is too slow) and needs red to compete with other control decks that simply have more resources from the other colors available to them to shore up the loss of FoFs 2 and 3.
Nevermind that Fire/Ice is THE BOMB and, as you noted, Shaman stops one of OSE's biggest nightmares (Null Rod). Cities-smitties. Who's afraid of a little pain?
And although this may seem minor, I think the deck functions much better with a third mox for acceleration.
Also, especially with only one FoF, two colors leaves too many slots open to filler. Look at a good 5-color Keeper deck and notice how there isn't one single card that isn't just plain amazing. The only problem is there is usually no room for experimentation without cutting something you don't like cutting or going to 61 cards.
Going U/B instead of 5 colors allowed Az to fit more creature hate and nifty stuff like Response, but it leaves too many other slots wide open (especially now that you can only play one FoF) and, subsequently, being filled with subpar cards to make up for the lck of other colors. IMO, there just isn't enoug broken stuff yet (YET) in black and blue to make U/B as good as 3, 4, or 5 color control varients. Maybe in 2-3 years...
With three colors you'll still have some slots to play with, but you won't find silly janky stuff in your deck either where you should have must-counter spells.
Well, without B2B around as a huge threat, I'm goign to try running Red again. However, last time I tried it I found the following things: Back to Basics actually hurts. A lot. Fire doesn't kill bad creatures. Shaman doesn't have many targets. And I've yet to see a Null Rod played against me in real life -ever-. Janky I know, but thats what I play against.
I have yet to find more than 1 filler/fun slot in the deck, and only one bad card (Teferi's Response, again the janky metagame).
I'll write back when I figure out if the Red is worthwhile against bad decks...
Azhrei, your OSE Primer was well written and insightful. Kudos!
Thanks man! I'm happy to hear that you liked it. It makes doing it worthwhile.
Im with Spin on this one, i still prefer Ub(partly cuz i dont own Volcanics). I just like the more stable mana base and i really dont find it hard to fill slots. I agree with Matt that if you face a lot of Keeper than red is probably worth it but in a more normal(read: varied) metagame i believe Ub is just as strong.
Red is not just for Shaman and sideboard hate. it is also for Fire/Ice.
This little puppy is amazing. Fetchable by Merchant Scroll or Mystical tutor, pitchable to FoW. Fire owns sligh all day long, and can even go to the dome if it has to (ask D'avanso or Ssswmc). Ice has lots of incidental uses (tapping a masticore is great card/time advantage, let alone a blue source on end step, winter orb, or whatever blocker is in your way for the win), and is never ever dead.
Not to downplay hte importance of Shaman, but Fire/Ice is simply incredible.
Fire/Ice is incredible until you die to incredibly janky, but large critters. Merchant Scroll doesn't fetch Abyss all that well...
Gorilla Shaman is huge until you realize not everybody owns Moxen.
And REB still doesn't stop Yawg Will. So there.
No but Merchant Scroll fetches any number of blue card drawers that can help you find that abyss or, you know, there *is* another side to Fire/Ice that can buy time
Ice stalls the fatty for a turn at no card cost, so its not even dead there. and unless the offending fatty is by himself its not like the edict you'd have in its place would do the trick either. Furthermore 1 edict in the face of sligh horde looks pretty stupid.
Mystical tutor doesnt fetch the abyss either, but you dont rail against that. Merchant scroll just skips the card disadvantage.
Destroying Moxen is nice, Destroying Null Rods, black vice, Cursed Scrolls, etc is just as important.
You want specific sideboard cards for Y-Will? What are you going to use? Crypt? Planar Void? Cremate?
If the crux of your problem is that you are playing against bad decks, then use keeper (with or without oaths) that will solve the bad-decks problem in a hurry. Or if you really want to metagame, treachery the offending fatties.
Ice stalls the fatty for a turn at no card cost
I'm not really having any problem winning with my deck. It just seems, at many points, that adding Red can be just as stupid as not adding Red. Its not a cut and dry thing, and even though I'm not being 100% serious and/or literal in the post above, I hope my point stands that Red is not the defining part of the deck, nor is it necessary for everybody.
Azhrei, Congratulations on your article. I hope there will be a Type One side event at the GP Heidelberg this weekend, so I can play OSE once more. And I'm also glad, that you are back on the forum. Keep this quality. You are one of the best deck designers I ever saw.
The OSE Primer was a long time coming, but well worth the wait. Great work, Az. ;)
Thanks guys. I appreciate it.
simply awesome!! clear consise and logical; it's good to see how an english major would write a dissertation on magic.
>>>I'll write back when I figure out if the Red is worthwhile against bad decks...
Spin, if BAD creatures areyour concern than red would also allow you to run Terminate. Fight jank with jank.
That's it, I'm driving out tonight and stomping a mudhole in your New York ass. :P
[Edited by Matt D'Avanzo, Asst. Maintainer]
This is priceless.
"And although this may seem minor, I think the deck functions much better with a third mox for acceleration."
Captain Obvious Has Saved Us.
You talk about how more colors lets you have more brokenness, but don't run all the most potentially broken mana sources in the game?
Sorry, but I found that this was really asanine with monoblue and I think that it's asanine here as well. 7 SoLoMoxen > 5 SoLoMoxen. It's Just Broken. You shouldn't even have to think about it.
*random tangent to what Parrot's saying*
Type One. This format is all about brokenness. The only structural difference between 1 and 1.5 is the inclusion of all of these degenerate restricted cards. So if you're going to play 1, you'd better either
(a) Be ready to capitalize on all of the brokenness available to you in whatever way possible
(b) Have a serious desire to make people in (a) wonder why they spent all that money on small pieces of cardboard.
"You talk about how more colors lets you have more brokenness, but don't run all the most potentially broken mana sources in the game?
Sorry, but I found that this was really asanine with monoblue and I think that it's asanine here as well. 7 SoLoMoxen > 5 SoLoMoxen. It's Just Broken. You shouldn't even have to think about it."
It's funny that you say this. I just pulled the green mox out of my Keeper in favor of a basic land. It stabalized my mana base big time. What's a green mox, after all? Just Gorilla Shaman food. If you face hordes of Shaman at every tournament you can't just plop down two moxes on turn one, unless you are prepared to counter your opponents first turn Gorilla Shaman.
Your deck doesn't count. Your mana base is horrible becuase of blood moon. A normal keeper wouldn't notice the stablization, I think.
Though I haven't tried it.
But I maintain that 7 SoLoMoxen is like required for a fully-powered environment.
"But I maintain that 7 SoLoMoxen is like required for a fully-powered environment."
And I will maintain that 7 SoLoMoxen can be fodder for a Gorilla Shaman heavy environment. And, if you play in a fully-powered environment in which you don't ever see Gorilla Shaman, I would say that your environment isn't random and you can metagame whatever the hell you want. But, in a random field, what good is an off color Mox?
Um...well...its like a Sol Ring, except more explosive...you know, it gives you mana and stuff. Like, a turn earlier. So you can do stuff.
I would say something more articulate but I think being one generic mana ahead of your opponent the whole game is a good thing.
Milton, there's a HUGE difference between your deck's mana base and something like
4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Strip Mine
To make the point even stronger, cut the Academy for a Tropical or something. A deck like this doesn't care a WHOLE lot about getting one mox eaten, becuase the mana is fine anyway. Obviously you care becuase with Shaman you only have 21 mana sources, but you can still get lucky off of a Drain or something.
What is it with people and 2 Wastelands lately? That's such a bad idea.
Azhrei, excellent article, I really enjoyed it.
Also, what else could they have instead of two Wastes? Three? Perhaps they just can't fit them in. Like in my Keeper for example.
Running fewer than 4 Strips is just beginning to have LoA hand your ass to you. It's worth running one fewer Tundra or Volcanic Island. Personally, I don't use Academy because of how often it taps for zero.
I play 3 Strips in Enchantress and have lost to a Library I just couldn't kill about once. Then again, I also a) have a ton of card drawing and b) almost never strip random duals or Cities unless I suspect my opponent is manascrewed or I have him Choked. I think using 3 Strips is OK if you swear to yourself that you will *only* use them for LoA or other big problem lands rather than just Wasting on sight cause you have nothing better to do.
First off, Azhrei, your article is excellent, without a doubt.
I've been playtesting OSE vs. Keeper, and it seems like Keeper has an extremely difficult time winning at all.
So, why does everyone say that the matchup is so close? What does Keeper do to compete with OSE's greater counters/Morphlings.
I'm talking game 1 here.
Thanks for the insight.
Most of my test games were against Matt D'Avanzo. He doesn't make mistakes. That's why I said "all else being equal" it's 50-50. If the Keeper player isn't top notch it's a lot harder for them to pull it off.
Well, for Keeper vs. OSE, isn't the gameplan pretty much the same for both decks?
Setup Mind Twist and/or Will? I guess with rOSE you could try to setup Morphling instead, but that's still approximately as easy/difficult to do as setting up twist or will. And since they're trying to do things that take more or less the same amount of time, that'd (like you said, all else being equal) pretty much take it down to who goes first.
Readers should note that I probably have no idea what I'm talking about.
Well, the Factories in OSE mean that Morphling is often a turn or two faster to kill, which is a huge help.
Yeah, the Factories put a threat on the board. Keeper has to be responsive to that threat. But, OSE has to use precious mana to use the Factories during the main phase, which benefits the reactive Keeper player.
It's a toss-up.