Goblin Trenches in Keeper?!?

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Goblin Trenches in Keeper?!?

-->
By Superman on dope (Dope) on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 08:34 am:

Well, this card has become popular to some people (e.g. the last NG tounament). What do BD Keeper players think about using the card, though? ;)

The card:

Goblin Trenches 1WR
Enchantment

2, Sacrifice a land: Put two 1/1 red and white Goblin Soldier creature tokens into play.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 08:38 am:

Popular?

Looked more like a gag to me that's funny against control. :)


By Superman on dope (Dope) on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 08:40 am:

Popular to the two people that ran it. :)


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 08:41 am:

Goblin Trenches commentary


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 01:46 pm:

I'd consider running one in my sideboard against certain matchups. I wouldn't maindeck it, but I'll say it has potential in some environments.


By Elrond, the High Priest & Pokemon Slayer (Elrond) on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 03:51 pm:

It would be pretty nice sometimes. The appeal to me is that you can just play it and get a couple points in here and there for pressure rather than forcing 'phling through once and for all.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Tuesday, February 12, 2002 - 01:37 pm:

It's an amazing card--however not amazing enough for me to cut anything I'm currently running or go to 61 like Eric and Steven. I am prone to getting very bad mana draws so I don't feel like confounding matters.

In a control mirror it is generally superior to a Morphling on the table. Unless you kill it right there and then (which is hard with a measly one Disenchant-effect per deck) when he's taped out (or mostly tapped out) you will die. There is no good answer to it if it hits. Balance and Edict stop a Morph but Trenches could care less. Balance is particularly bad because you wind up geddoning yourself and they just wind up laying a land and making more. D.Blow just creates a horde in response and with one D.Blow in the entire deck it's tough to find in time. Abyss? Blah. Morphling? No good against a swarm of 1/1s.

The thing is I don't really WANT a third dedicated win condition. Unless I'm ready to win I want a card that helps me gain control, not something to beat them up with. Sometimes (sometimes) Trenches can do this (like if you're facing 2/1s), but it's awful against Stompy and Suicide--and only marginal against the rest of the aggro population. Basically when it hits you stop being control and just have to go right for the beatdown. I'm not saying overextendand sac everything, but making 2 1/1s just to block their 2/1s is a weak play. It's important to remember that once this hits, you (generally) become the beatdown deck. If you don't play it this way you'll be generally unsatisfied with the card.

Truth be told, if it went over any card in my deck it would be over Morphling #2, but Morphling wins out simply because he's blue. As it is I'm down to 20 blue cards post-FoF and that is just enough to properly run 5 pitch counters.

So basically, my position is that Trenches is pretty damn amazing, but I'm not planning to run it. Besides, Steven took my foil Trenches and no way am I going to play with a non-shiny one. I may, MAY sideboard it for the control matchup, but I like my current SB. I have since renamed Sadin's deck "Invasion Block Keeper" since he's running FoF, Fire/Ice, AND Trenches.

--Matt


By Mason Loring Bliss on Tuesday, February 12, 2002 - 02:17 pm:

Um... Moat?


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, February 12, 2002 - 02:22 pm:

Um... against another control deck?


By Valdner (Valdner) on Tuesday, February 12, 2002 - 04:09 pm:

I like the card in theory for a "normal" Keeper, but it doesn't really work for my Oath variant. Plus, it is a gold card that is not of any of your primary colors.

Rakso: You said mana was very inportant in the control mirror. but also say that Trenches is good versus control as well. This makes very little sense since you have to sac lands to use the trenches. Could you clarify this please?


By Sylvesterian Beats (Sylvester) on Tuesday, February 12, 2002 - 07:40 pm:

LAte game, you're gonna ahve much mroe mana sources than you'll usually need. Sure, stroke for X is nice, but stroke for X-3 is just as fine.


By gizzard on Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 01:54 am:

Mana is important in the control mirror for the long-term. The person who has more mana has more options every turn and an that builds up a general advantage over time. A "strategic" advantage.

"Tactical" happenings can totally negate your strategic work. I force a Morphling through despite your greater options. Now, the game is not about mana and options, its about finding an answer to Morphling in the next 4 turns. Trenches sound like the same sort of card, except even more abrupt. "EOT I make 10 guys. I draw and then swing for ten. Go."


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 03:16 am:


Quote:

Rakso: You said mana was very inportant in the control mirror. but also say that Trenches is good versus control as well. This makes very little sense since you have to sac lands to use the trenches. Could you clarify this please?



How does your normal control deck deal with Goblin Trenches?


By Spin13 (Spin13) on Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 10:09 am:

Sacred Mesa owns Trenches. I'd rather devote 2 mana a turn for as long as I want the Mesa to stay than to sacrifice even 1 land. While you would probably have to include a pair of Tundras to reasonable support it, where you could have cast Trenches off a City and Volcanic, you're still dealing with White mana somewhere, and you're forgoing the Red. And Mesa is another answer to Morphling, whereas Trenches sucks if you are already at 5 life. If you were looking for such a card, I'd think a few Tundras would be worth the extra flexibily.


By Valdner (Valdner) on Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 10:14 am:

"How does your normal control deck deal with Goblin Trenches?"

Hmm. Good point. Mine can deal with it though. :D


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 11:14 am:

Okay, and Morphling sucks if you're at 5 life from his Moprhling and you don't have U3 to spare after casting him successfully. Point?

Spin, Mesa requires a shit-load of white mana.
2 Tundras? You'd need 4 City, 4 Tundra and like 2-4 plains to do _anything_ with Mesa. Mesa is only _passable_ if you can make 3 tokens a turns (which is what you would do is you had the mana base I suggested), but pumping out 3 tokens is hardly impressive--and that requries WWW3 (in addition to the original W2). How is that better, in any stretch of the imagination, then just plopping out 8 guys and going after them with goblins?

Also keep in mind that with an Abyss out Mesa will require an extra white mana and 1 for upkeep and your opponent can don nasty stuff like Edict/Fire-Ice in resp to make you lose the enchantment is you don't have an ungodly amount of white mana. Even if you put an ungodly amount of white mana in to your keeper it's still vulnerable to wasteland.

You could not make use of Mesa in a typical control deck (U/W sure). Trenches just requires you to get it onto the table and then beatdown fast for the wind. Mana advantage isn't relevant because you are no longer a control deck--you are the beatdown.

--Matt


By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 11:48 am:

Goblin Trenches seems like a nice sideboard card against control decks but against control decks you already have Red Blasts and Dwarven miner.

Destroying one's land to get 1/1 creatures seems counter intuitive since control decks require alot of mana to hard cast forces and utilize x drawing spells to the fullest.

I would consider trying it but I already have 3 Red Blasts and 2 Dwarven Miner sideboarded against control and what does one cut to fit this main deck?


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 04:38 am:

>>>Destroying one's land to get 1/1 creatures seems counter intuitive since control decks require alot of mana to hard cast forces and utilize x drawing spells to the fullest.

I'll quote myself: "Mana advantage isn't relevant because you are no longer a control deck--you are the beatdown."

As far as where to fit it, I can't help you there since it isn't in my maindeck. They're all playing 61 cards to fit it in which I refuse to do. I suppose the most expendable slot is Vampiric Tutor, but I just put my Vamp back in...

In some ways though it's better than a Miner aainst control--afterall Miner isnt so hot against Legend Purple and mono-U varients. Besdies, it's easier to kill a 1/2 than a horde of 1/1s and an enchantment in 1-3 turns.


By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:51 am:

Matt: You just told me to cut Vampiric Tutor to try Fire/Ice (slaps Matt upside the head with a large trout)

I might try Goblin Trenches sideboard instead of a Miner. Miners are so good tho.


By Spin13 (Spin13) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 01:28 pm:

Maybe its my play style, but I have no problem only pumping out a dude a turn with a Mesa and swinging. It may take 7 turns to kill them, but it works. I've done it with Enchantress, and in a control mirror, where I can use Cities with relatively no fear, I think it can be done in a Keeper type deck. Suicide Mesa DOES work. I wouldn't play it over Morphling in Keeper, but then again, I wouldn't play Trenches in Keeper either. That is, if I would even play Keeper at all. :)

-Eric


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. A valid username and password combination is required to post messages to this discussion.
Username:  
Password: