The Entire Elitest Issue, forced to be brought up yet again

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Archived threads of the Beyond Dominia Type I Mill: The Entire Elitest Issue, forced to be brought up yet again

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:27 pm:

***Seeing as how this IS a serious topic, is certainly not just spamming or flaming, and involves basically just people from the this mill, I do think it would be a rather terrible choice for you to move and/or delete this post.***

I recieved the following email after my recent post on the thread about CF's Keeper thread, which was niether spamming nor flamming and was still deleted:


----- Original Message -----
From: Oscar Tan
To: BD -- Psychocid
Cc: BD -- K-Run
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 3:43 AM
Subject: "Elitism" comments

Due to complaints, I'd like to request that you refrain from butting into threads and posting messages accusing someone of being elitist, etc.

It's no longer funny.

Please note that further violations may lead to the other sanctions.

Oscar Tan

So, of course, I promptly replied with this:


Exscuse me, but where did humor step in, in the first place? ...and butting into threads? As in we are not welcome there in the first place?

Are you denying that the majority of BD higher ups (including players) act elitest, whether they truly are or not? I can sympathize with a sickness of things you've been over so many times. The thing is, you have to realize that other people may not have tried everything. Other factors come in, also, including that sometimes different cards just work better for different people. Abyss and some spot removal works best for you? Great. Maybe Oath works better or is just MORE FUN and at least efficient enough to get by for someone else. You and the others (namely Az and and Matt D'A, tho there are definetly more) are totally closed minded about things. Is Magic about running the most popular cards? No. Is it about winning? If that's the only way you get fun out of it, sure. What wins? Cards you play well and are comfortable with. Style of play, personal choice, and metagame way into this far more heavily than you make room for. You want people to conform to your ideas or, basically, die.

I do realize there is nothing I can do about this. It's not like I want you banned or anything so drastic. I want fairness. Do you realize that the majority of BDers, tho an awful lot will not admit it infront of any of you, do not like you at all? Some of us, especially myself, have noted that you are worse than Random and/or Negator (though not moronic, but certainly less polite). I hear all kinds of things about how you, personally, do not like me because I am NOT CRUEL to Rndm and Neg. Why am I this way? Simply, because they are nice to me. They may not be the brightest things alive, but I have never seen them flood or be disruptive in any real way. They have expressed their opinions just like everyone else, and nothing more. I'm not saying they're like that on the boards, that's just how they are where I see them most. Why do I not like you? The same, roughly, in reverse.

If you cannot or do not wish to handle the responsibilities you have, please just don't. Pass them on to someone else. As I see it, we have zero significantly decent BD mods right now. Rakso is as already explained, and Shadow no longer cares about BD in any serious manner.

As I said, I do understand your point of view, but that gives no right to be an ass about things. Be constructive rather than destructive. You think you know whats best? Great. I'm not saying that you do or don't. I just know that it'd be so much better if you explained your opinions as best you could, and then just encouraged them to do their thing. If they need to see for themselves why something sucks or is good, that's fine. Magic is a game that has a rather long learning which, frankly, never stops.

For now, I'll leave it at this. You can delete my posts. You can delete my account. You can ignore all I ever say. This helps me argument, if nothing more. All I ask is that you either shape up or ship out, and that is far from an improper request. Thanks for your time, if you did bother to read this whole thing.


Feel free to reply to anything on this post, I'm just hoping it doesn't get ignorantly deleted. I figured this was sort of a public topic, so it was well deserving of a post.

Peace...if thats possible, here ;)

By Silver Dragon (Silverd) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:48 pm:


Do not flame. It pisses us off.

Do not spam. Read the mill descriptions and stay on topic. Miscellaneous stuff goes to the ***Rumor Mill***.

Do not question or even discuss BD policy on the mills. E-mail a mod or an admin and you'll have much better luck getting your concerns addressed.

Wow, let's time how fast this thread will be deleted. This should be!

Well, back on topic:
Um, no offense, but that message is somewhat, shall we say . . . angry to say the least? You describe how people should not flame, and here you are flaming and spaming. Then you essentially say that the mods are worthless. Whoa, I don't know why I am even posting on such a poorly choiced thread. If anyone is covering their responsibilites, it's the mods. They have to deal with people like you all the time.

If I spammed, flamed, etc in this post. Please tell me. I am interested in how you interpret such things.

By TomM on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:52 pm:

Umm, I would hardly call that post spam or flaming... it would fall under #3 possibly, of discussing policy, but that is about it.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:56 pm:

I said thing flat out without flaming (read: without being angry about things). I have discussed this with both Shadow and Rakso through all of IRC, AIM, and e-mail, and have gotten nowhere.

If you interpret that part of what I said to be saying "the mods are worthless," then you are blind. The mods can certainly get better. The big about Shadow caring came from his own fingers, mind you.

Having no other choice, I have chosen to risk deletion of all sorts in an attempt to get people to stop hiding in the /msgs of IRC and come out and admit that there are problems here that deserve to be dealt with.

You do realize that if this is considering flaming, and you've posted on it, you rather risk getting removed, yourself.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:58 pm:

boy was that riddled with errors..."I said THAT flat out," "The THING about Shadow," etc. Sorry :/

By White Knight (White_Knight) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:59 pm:

I had the pleasure to talk to Cid and see him acting some times, and I know he's one of the most reasonable persons around. I wouldn't take his post as lightly assuming as flame.

It's true, some people around here are close minded to others ideas often assuming they have found theirs to be the best, due to their metagame calls or even because they don't have in mind other people's choices, as cid said.

I think he wasn't being agressive, so he wasn't flaming. He was pointing out a serious issue on this board which is mostly take as tabu and therefore not discussed as it should be.

By White Knight (White_Knight) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:05 pm:


Miscellaneous stuff goes to the ***Rumor Mill***.

It's funny you point this out since there are so many off topic threads on the type 1 mill and yet they are not moved or deleted.

By Brimstone, the Voice of Newnet (Brimstone) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:06 pm:

The legend, misr, and negator isse.

After being in IRC alot and reading the boards these people sometimes do say intelligent things. The week that negator and legend weren't on Rakso's black list everyone complimented their ideas and treated them with respect, once they were back on the list people basically told them to screw off. MiSr in IRC chat is somewhat intelligent and nice. He's a good player but just likes to try out new ideas everyone else thinks is crap. Magic is no longer a game when you lock yourself into the "only play cards that win" attitude, instead it becomes stressful and irritating. So accept new ideas and accept all people's ideas if they are somewhat valid even if your "leader" disagrees.

By Liam (Liam) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:16 pm:

I noticed things like that when i first arrived, but it's not "elitism" it's credibility.

The longer you stay and make sense, the better a reputation you earn. The better your reputation, the more people take your opinion seriously.

Patience and learning are the foundation of this board's hierchy (and there is one), which makes sense really. If you want people to care what you think, they have to recognize you and you have to know what you're talking about, just like real life.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:20 pm:

Oh boy, I'm close-minded apparently? Here's how I operate: I need to be convinced an idea is good before I'll accept it. If it turns out to be good, I promote it. Take Undiscovered Paradise, for example-- I use it a lot now, despite having a lot of skepticism for it at first.

Conversely, I'm not about to accept a bad idea just because someone really likes it. If you want something that you think is more fun, that's fine-- don't expect me to say that "fun" is equal to "competitively optimal" when it's not. That's not going to change, nor will "but I like it better that way" substitute my experience and expertise to me-- the simple fact of the matter is that I listen to my own reason above someone else's opinion unless it's an opinion from someone I have come to respect.

I won't deny that there are obvious cliques on BD-- I consider a lot of posters here my friends and know many in my normal social life. That's not really related to how I treat someone's ideas if I don't know them. Bad ideas are bad ideas, and I can guarantee you that if any of my friends has a bad idea, they hear about it from me and others.

As for elitism, I think that there's an obvious variation in the skill level of a lot of the posters here. I don't think that's up for discussion.

In my five years posting here, every time the question of elitism has come up it has always been a matter of someone not getting the level of respect they think they deserve, or sour grapes over not being fawned over for their insights. Every time, it has been a matter of people thinking they deserve something they haven't earned.

Respect is earned, not given. No one paid any attention to me for a while until I started to know more than anyone else. JP, Matt, Nameless... when each of them started out here they were seen as just another newbie, but in a short time they distinguished themselves as true experts in the format through their intelligent and innovative insights and ideas, even if we all still disagree from time to time on various points. If you're looking for the top tier, just walk up the mountain. No one is stopping anyone, but someone won't reach the summit without deserving it.

If your reach exceeds your grasp, it's no wonder you feel slighted.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:20 pm:

Liam: You are entirely correct. However, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Take that for what you will, but I'm just pointing out that just because you've earned a good rep doesn't mean things you do after that are in line with the good things you've previously done.

By God Money on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:22 pm:

Liam's right.
i know that i'm going to get yelled at for bringing up mtgnews and bringing up gurus is even worse but...
i don't particularly like the gurus but i became a guru just because when people see the guru tag in your signature they sit up and listen to what you have to say. its the same thing here.

By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:24 pm:

Dammit Liam, you said it better than I did. I'm positively mortified! :)

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:25 pm:

Az, you are certainly one of the few who can express themselves without getting overly frustrated and then giving up and ignoring it.

Maybe elitism is too strong a word, so I apologize for that.

I do agree with you that respect must be earned. However, when you start off, that doesn't mean you can be treated POORLY, just that you may not get perks like having people listening and believing a lot of stuff you say.

By Jacob Orlove on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:26 pm:

The point of a "good rep" means that what you do probably *will* be "in line with the good things you've previously done." That's what a good reputation means-that people know that you are reliable and knowledgeable. That doesn't just go away.
True, everyone is wrong ocasionally, but, strangely enough, established wisdom IS often correct-that's how it became established in the 1st place.

By Sylvesterian Beats (Sylvester) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:26 pm:

The problem is, Rakso's moderating is sometimes sub-par. Also, I agree that the sort of mob mentality thing with Miser, Legend and Negator is annoying. Not only is it annoying, it just gives us a bad image. If we want to avhe fun, can't we do that without making the guy feel hated? There are several tones between picking a bit on someone for light fun and what i oftens ee on the boards.

All that i wish is to see the boards back to the quality they had when i first came. There WERE off-topic post, making BD seem like a close-knit community. But, more importantly, the posts were often of much better quality than what i found elsewhere. I ound other things than decklsits for discussions; i saw single cards being discussed, with their pros and cons. All that without rampant flaming.

A new guy could come in, post his deck, ask for help in a polite manner, and be answered in the same way... EVEN if the deck had 4 arcane denials, etc.

Sincerely, if you don't feel like replying with something else than a rude "Read the xyz primer", or with what basically amounts to a destructive comment(aka flame), don't reply AT ALL. Just explaining with cards aren't the best option, etc. can be done respectfully.

I am tired of that "We see that every day. I'll be damned if i take some time to answer the same question" mentality. Someone else will answer if you don't, or you will when you'll feel more like it. In the mean time, let's try not to make matters worse. A respectful reply would consist of a quick explanations of some card choices' quality, and then pointing to the primer for more details(if possible). You could even point to a specific section of the primer.

By Spin13 (Spin13) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:29 pm:

If you could say that was a motion for the removal of Rakso as a moderator, I second it. His escalation of the occasional minor nuisances has disturbed this place for far too long. His spamming posts are not only more frequent than any other poster’s, but they are 1) a terrible example, and 2) not deleted, unlike the useless posts of others. His ability to facilitate the spreading of knowledge is lacking in many areas, particularly in the censorship of certain thoughts. I believe he should step down. I see no reason to allow him to try to better himself, as he has not improved noticeably as old situations die down and new ones arise.

As for the elitism issue, if you don’t like what somebody has to say, ignore it. Great player, poor player, elitist, anti-elitist – we all have the ability to ignore and disregard what any of these people might say. If somebody wants to push his opinion like it is the single truth, there is often a reason. Right or wrong, the poster nearly always has something to back himself up with, be it preference, testing, wins, etc. Accept it (that somewhere in each mind there is a reason for everything), believe it if you will, dispute it if you desire, and move on. Should an entire collection of thoughts be right or wrong, either at the beginning or end of an argument, there is still the option of belief.


By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:30 pm:


A new guy could come in, post his deck, ask for help in a polite manner, and be answered in the same way... EVEN if the deck had 4 arcane denials, etc.

Sincerely, if you don't feel like replying with something else than a rude "Read the xyz primer", or with what basically amounts to a destructive comment(aka flame), don't reply AT ALL. Just explaining with cards aren't the best option, etc. can be done respectfully.

Could that be worded any better? :)

This is what I am looking for. Fairness for all. Not the same level of respect for all, as thats a bit different.

By Zoo on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:32 pm:

I think what he ment by "playing with only cards that win" is playing with the correct cards, however not realizing why it wins. For example, "The Abyss kills creatures and creatures kill me" isn't why The Abyss is good, it's good because one card negates the effects of another deck and blocks them of ways to win.
However, you've addressed this issue personally with Mods, and, from previous expierences, addressing it on the board may not be the best way to get it noticed. It will be recognized, but I doubt this poast will last a week.

By Liam (Liam) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:33 pm:

@ Az:

Sorta stings when your almost-english-teacherness don't help you getting showed up by some teen from Canada :)

Sorry for rubbing you in it, but I think that's the first time i've beaten you in an eloquence contest :)


By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:36 pm:

I would just like to thank all of those that (have posted and will post and that) are finally coming out about these things. Whether this and/or myself get deleted or not, I feel I've at least done the right thing.

By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:37 pm:

LOL! Know what is HILARIOUS about demanding fairness and mentioning me as an example?

You should totally see how I talk to my friends from this board via email and on IM on Magic. I don't pull any punches with them, and I've stopped doing it for people who should be able to take it.

Newbies don't get flamed out. No one does except spammers. The people who get a hard time from me are either good players who could be better and I want to see them improve, or players who think they're better than they are.

And FYI, I think I'm entitled to refer people asking about OSE to the Primer that *I* wrote without taking flak for it.

By Sylvesterian Beats (Sylvester) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:38 pm:

I think policies should be applied with judgement. Until this turns in a general flamefest, it should stay on the board.... As long as we don't see 10s of threads like that pop up. That'd require some filtering/fusing.

By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:39 pm:

No Liam, you won for brevity and succinctness. And your grammar is, as ever, atrocious.

By Sylvesterian Beats (Sylvester) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:40 pm:

Az:that's not my point. My point was that ONLY saying "Check the primer [link]" is very dry and uninteresting. At least add some personal comment. Quality posts require some effort, but i think we can all gain by posting in better quality, even if that means less quantity :/

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:44 pm:

Right, well...the fact is, Az, that we DON'T see the way you talk to others using other methods of communicating. So...useless example.

"Newbies don't get flamed out. No one does except spammers"

Relativity is everything. What seems like nothing to you feels like getting flamed out to others. Not myself, particularly, but this is true.

By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:46 pm:

First i would like to state that i have always respected Cid and that i dont believe this post is flamming or spamming, he is correct on several points but some things just wont change. Theres a reason ppl listen to Az and MattD more than they listen to me... those guys are better players then me, they have more experience in competitive T1 and are certainly better deckbuilders. This isnt ass-kissing, i dont agree with them about everything(Stompy better than Sligh?) but it does mean that i pay more attention to them then to complete newbies who havent proven themselves, thats just logical. This doesnt mean that my insights or those of others are useless or stupid but that some ppl have more experience and more skill at this game then others and those are the guys we listen to more closely. Sometimes i feel that some of my ideas are dismissed faster than they should and certainly faster than if they were coming from Az but thats just a fact or life, respect is earned and in some player's eyes i havent earned it yet. Hell, one day after most of you have moved on and i am still rotting here newer players may regard me with such respect, wether it will be warranted or not is another matter but thats just the way life works; we ask our parents and older siblings for advice on life because they know more about it than us and the same is true for Magic.

By Cividel, the Mime (Cividel) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:47 pm:

This has happened eleventeen billion and eight times before, and I imagine will continue far into the future. I'm not a well respected member of the BD community, I rarely post, and I'm generally quiet. (See my tagline) But, the last time we started the _massive_ "Elitest Flame War of Doom" when people started getting ()'s and there was all the the trouble with impersonations I posted a few times, and mailed Rakso and a few other people because I was interested. People don't think I'm a complete fool, or a general nuisance (as far as I know, if you fell differently - PLEASE mail me. Can't change if I don't know what I'm doing wrong) and I've been watching over the not-so-carefully controlled anarchy that is #BDChat for a bit now. This boils down to the same issues every time it seems.

1.) People post ideas
2.) Said ideas get shot down
3.) Someone complains about either the ideas or the shooting.
4.) Rakso goes into Ayatollah mode and starts sending the posts to a firey grave in the incinerator.

But, in the past, that was how the dialogs were opened. It was how the 'Tech' was shared by all, and it was good. Then, as in any community, people came to the forefront and gained respect. This was also good, as it provided a seed for the community to grow from. Then, other people saw the attention that others recieved, and complained -- That's where the dissonance started to overcome the harmony. Now, according to everyone here I am probably the most random person -- always bickering about my Tea or Bricks or other nonsense. No one reads my amazing strategy posts - I don't make any. I know for a fact that were I to post my current 5cControl build, it would be torn to bits faster than a bloody carcass tossed into the waters off the coast of Australia during Great White season because I play cards that I like, that make me win and that work in my metagame.

As far as I'm concerned, posting a decklist to beat the mythical over-arching national type one metagame is a simple case of mental masturbation -- it's fun, but it certainly doesn't compare to playing for real. People post a deck and others say 'That autoloses to X, Y and Z! It's trash!' ... Well, if you never _see_ X, Y or Z then is it really trash? I _like_ reading reports of actual play, of real decks in a real field. I _like_ original ideas, and a response of the most well phrased (although still polite) scalding criticisms allowable by law. What I don't like is when people post stupid decks and don't back them up. I've talked to CF about a green heavy 5cControl deck on and off for quite a while -- sharing lists, making off handed comments. I know where he came up with his ideas and I know that he's been testing them. I don't think that just because he uses 'Suboptimal' cards as judged by this mythical metagame we all want to beat is a bad thing. That's how we get ideas :)

The elitism issue is almost always brought about by posts like this : People trying to push the envelope or trying to see a new way to solve an old problem. Sometimes, they _are_ wrong and they should listen when they get shot down. Other times, they have something that at the very least works for them and are dismissed. That, in my mind, is the cause of the elitist comments you hear about. Undoubtedly, someone will misunderstand what I'm talking about here, and that's fine. I imagine this thread will get the axe rather quickly, that's also fine. The issue will continue to plague the board as a community until a dialog is opened up and it's solved, or through raw tyrannical rule it's simply destroyed and thus, proving the people that cry 'elitist!' right.

Like any community, we have our share of politcs and issues. To be honest, BD just hasn't been the same since this issue was brought up the first time. That's good - it shows that we have the ability to change for better or for worse. What's bad, is that we consistently seem to be choosing to become worse.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:49 pm:

Right. I did say respect != fairness. I do tend to listen to Az and Jaypee and the rest, though Jaypee moreso because, frankly, he's often a lot nicer. There is a difference between treating people who deserve respect better and treating people who haven't earned that level of respect yet worse.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:50 pm:

Speaking of which, please note the way I worded that. Az is not meaner, Jaypee is just nicer.

By Amos, Defender of the Moxless (Amos) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:02 pm:

I think that while there is quite a lot of 'bad' karma and discussion on bd, there is also quite alot of good. For instance, the only 2 competative type 1 player's and bd'rs in my area are misr and Arex (who only posts occasionaly) and thusly i learned pretty much everything i know about type 1 from bd and the articles written by bd'rs. Also the board has pretty much accepted me smoothly without any of the bad blood or elitism that many people are blamed for. And my limited interaction with the 'respected' people on this board (Rakso, Azhrei etc.) has been positive and freindly, if breif.
I'm not bragging or anything, just making a point, we as a community are actually quite alot better than we give ourselvs credit for. Alot gets done and we are sort of the reigning 'experts' of type 1 on the net.
That is not to say there is no room for improvement, certainly there is, but overall we are doing pretty good. The thing that I would try to change is the 'read the primer' syndrome that many people (including me) have when a newbie posts a topic asking like "What is sligh and how do i do it?" I mean, say go read the primer, but also explain how type 1 sligh differs from extended sligh, and what sligh beats, and what sligh loses too, and his different building options, maybe post a decklist. That way, people who are new to the site won't feel quite so intimidated by the black backround, 20 page primer's, and keeper decks.
Just some thoughts,

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:05 pm:

Amos, you are correct. Not everything is bad about BD, and more is good than is bad. This thread is just isolating one of the bad things, so we can fix it...hopefully

By Teh Kaewt on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:06 pm:

Here is my 2 cents:

I do not know Rakso. I neither like nor dislike him as a person. I feel that he can and often does give valuable insights into strategy and gaming in T1 environments. On that note, I think that he is a horrible mod.

When you think of posts done by Mr. Tan, what do you think of? You might recollect advice given to aspiring control players, innovative technology for differing metagames, or primer-like help with certain archetypes. But for me personally, I think of posts such as these:


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah Rakso on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 03:50 pm:

Look at me! I can't read pieces of cardboard!



By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 05:38 am:

Miser's official excuse is now that I was stacking his deck, played him when he was so sleepy, and avoid a fair game.

My reply was that if I wanted a fair game, I'd have mulled to zero and started at 10 life. ;)

Ad infinitum...

In most popular threads, you are almost assuredly going to see him spam, insult, or play chat grab-ass with his playing buddies. Does this seem like a professional move from the moderator of a forum based around competetive play?

Another popular post of Mr. Tan's seems to be those such as these:


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 06:13 am:

Might there be some way for the boys to resolve this one point and move on?

You're arguing over semantics here, encouraging spammers to fill the dead time.

It appears that Mr. Tan is doing his sworn duty as a moderator by reminding posters to break up any attempts for people to send a thread off of it's original tangent. The intent is good, but unfortunately he can't seem to "practice what he preaches", so to speak.

The preceding rant is in no way condoning, advocating, or in favor of any spam, flame, or other disruptive material towards Oscar Tan or other personnel. The opinion expressed by TEH KAEWT was not meant to produce mental or emotional harm to anyone mentioned either intentionally or subliminally. Thank you for your time.


P.S. :D

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:07 pm:

I definitely agree with a lot of what has been said here. It's much, much easier to deal with polite people.

During the most recent week or two when Legend was unbanned, he made several threads that were really very helpful to me as a deckbuilder. His messages were a little arrogant, but polite nonetheless (this stands in stark opposition to Negator's usual posts), and as such, were not a chore to read. Politeness helps other people.

See Random-Miser: he couldn't be more obviously exaggerating if he tried - in fact, he probably DOES try to be as silly as possible. Anyway, in all my time here and on IRC I've never seen him become bellicose or mean. And so I've never actually found any cause to bear him animosity.

By Milton (Milton) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:18 pm:

I see unbridled elitism on this mill as well. It's a tough issue, I guess. I've been here for two years now and there is a certian level of decorum to this place. It's sometimes tough to figure out exactally how the customs of this board work.

I post here maybe twice a week. But, I check the mill five or six times a day. I post a decklist from time to time and I offer advice every once in a while.

Every time I post Bloodmoon Keeper I get criticized by numerous posters. Last year with Fact or Phidian many told me that Ophidian was horrible. I don't take any of this personally. Very few people here know me. They don't know my rating. They don't know how much I have given to the game. They don't know anything about my metagame or skill level, but they claim that I am dumb because I use Bloodmoon and I play with (gasp!) basic land in my Keeper deck!

So I understand where Cid is comming from. It can be a little frusterating getting slammed all the time, especially if you are good. But, Cid, don't take it personally man. Just keep posting and ignore the bastards that criticize everything just because it doesn't look like Neutral Ground Keeper (TM).

Evenually, you will earn respect for just being persistant.

By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:20 pm:

|=34|2 /\/\'/ 1337 5|<|115 114/\/\4. n00b.

Oh, and give me a reason to listen to you and then I will.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:26 pm:

I appreciate that, but my point is not getting accross ;) I care not what they say or do to me, but I do not appreciate that happening to people who do not feel they can handle it. Many, many people have felt like this for quite a long time now and are afraid to talk about it publically because Rakso has the power to delete them. Without Shadow here to defend me as planned (due to the fact that BD is far from a high priority to him, anymore), I am dead in the water, sacrificing myself for others...though that came off too preachy :/ Hope my point got accross, at least

By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:26 pm:

Legend and Random, though occasionally annoying, are not usually bastards with people and CAN give some good advice when given the chance. Please do not take this as a vote to reinstate either though, because both have used up their free passes. Also, i think we are being a tad hard on Rakso, most of his comments are made in jest i believe and his ability as a mod seems fine to me. After all, compare BD to MtgNews or some of the other forums out there, we are clearly the most polite and most respectful of the lot. Though we may have problems from time to time i believe BD is in better shape than it was a few months ago when Legend, Negator, Random and Vash(remeber!) were ALL regularly posting... well mabye not Negator but lets not tempt him. I do feel that we as a whole need to listen to the whole community and not just a few high-profile dudes. Even the newest of the new can have some valuable insight if you give them a chance they can surprise you, i know that i have gotten some good ideas from decks which were flawed but had a nice concept or an interesting card choice that proved itself. I think we should try to look at all the posts without looking at WHO posted it first and then decide if its worth our attention.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:27 pm:


|=34|2 /\/\'/ 1337 5|<|115 114/\/\4. n00b.

Oh, and give me a reason to listen to you and then I will.

There are those who are afraid to admit they don't like listening to certain people...then there are those who are afraid to admit they do.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:29 pm:

Yes, Rakso is not horrible. I do not want him removed, but, as previously stated, there is room for improvement. This threat was started not to attack someone, but to isolate a problem and attempt to help fix it.

By Spin13 (Spin13) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:32 pm:

Bah. Then I start my own motion for removal.


By Taeze on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:34 pm:

I'd just like to point out (from personal experience) to the esteemed Mr. Cid that his posted opinion in this thread is either bordering on hypocrisy or a not-very-funny joke.

I mean no offense to anyone, but I do have a hard time taking some people seriously. I whole-heartedly respect and support the management of BD for putting and keeping together one of the most volatile, yet productive communities anywhere online, and thank them for doing so.

I've been careful not to be too awfully offensive with this post, but if you were, your Inquiries/flames/apologies/just general chat can be emailed to ZeroYourHo***[email protected]*** I'll look at it tomorrow sometime.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:39 pm:

Having a little discussion about BD's most respected, we got to teh Doomsday deck, and this little doosey came up:


Matt the Great: when Random (perfect name) starts bullshitting, no one cares, but when Rakso of all people does, its really damaging

This is significant on more levels than one.

By White Knight (White_Knight) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:45 pm:

"Mr" Taeze, Cid's topic is definitly not a funny joke, since it's not meant to be funny. It's a serious issue that must be dealt with.

As for the hypocrisy you mention it, perhaps you would like to argue with proof, rather than just a simple statement?

By Andrew, the Sphinx Slayer (Andrew) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:46 pm:

If I post a version of OSE which is a year out of date, and Azhrei decides to correct me, is it reasonable for me to describe him as elitest, especially when I don't listen the first five times?

Yes, newbies should be treated with respect. They should have it explained to them why some cards are worse than others. But they should *LISTEN* which lots don't.

As for the modding: I've seen better. I've seen worse. It's true that Rakso sometimes doesn't apply his rules evenly, and is a lot harder on some people than others. But generally I'd rather have somewhat hard modding than a site full of BS. Which brings me to....

Specific people:
Legend I can (usually) deal with, depending on his mode for the day. Sometimes he is very helpful and creative. Othertimes he's a pompus git. He'd probably be fine if it were not for negator. Negator, as far as I can tell, his no redeming features. Oh, and: If you're talking about eliteism, these two scoop the pools.

And, finally, Miser:
Go look at some of his stuff on MTGnews - particularly his current 26-page long post in the type 2 forum about banning FoF in type 2 because of psychotog. Miser never listens to the opinions of others, he argues in an extremely deceptive manner usually and Miser *never* admits he's wrong, and never gives up. Even when the rest of the planet disagree's with him.Fine, he might be a nice guy in person. But he's insufferable on message boards.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:47 pm:

Taeze, and everyone else:

This is not a joke. This is a serious issue that has been brought up many times before and will keep returning until dealt with, which has more or less just been avoided, in the past.

You might want to try to look up hypocrisy, seeing as how I am/have not commit(ing/ed) the acts I am trying to stop, here.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:50 pm:


Yes, newbies should be treated with respect. They should have it explained to them why some cards are worse than others. But they should *LISTEN* which lots don't.

This arguement is obviously for those who listen, when the information needed has been given to them and explained reasonably.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:51 pm:

Btw, the same could be said for the mods and players. Az doesn't just accept something until it is PROVEN to him. Isn't it reasonable to expect the same from other humans?

By Liam (Liam) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:52 pm:

Of course my grammer is horrble, it's like a trademark. I'm the same guy that uses "prolly" for probably here :)

ok, bad choice of words. direct simplicity over eloquence. Seeing Azhrei mortified calls for a little grinding, it helps cut your ego down to size ;p


By SliverKing on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:54 pm:

As someone who's spent years of knowing Az on this board, a few as "the competition" around town, and most recently as a good friend and teammember I can tell you for a fact that he plays reverse favorites. For every blunt comment here, the people he knows better get ripped apart ruthlessly. He does listen when you present good arguements for new ideas. I should know, we worked together for months on OSE when it was just an idea on my dining room table. But when you have sub-optimal cards, or rogue tech that will never get used, he's not going to sugar coat it. No one gets better by having people agree with all their ideas. You get better by testing or learning from those who have.
As for elitist, this is very clearly labeled the "competitive Type 1 mill". Az has fun decks, and he tries wacky ideas too, but his advice is for winning, for good deckbuilding, for a higher level of Type 1 play in general.
My type 1 skills have improved over the past through years because of 2 things; 1) having a great place to regularly play in a serious type 1 environment, 2) by having other serious type 1 players to bounce ideas off of, to critique my decks, and inject a little reality in my deckbuilding.
So be grateful for the serious players, maybe they do rip into new decks, but letting people play bad decks is worse than being honest and helping them build a better deck.

By "Psycho" Cid (Cid) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:58 pm:

Boy are you skipping around and/or just not getting important points, SliverKing.

A) Everyone does not have the prilvedges you have.

B) See posts directly above yours and Liams.

C) See rest of posts. :( I admited elitism was possibly a bit harsh, and I apologized for it. Everything else you said has either already been covered or is irrelevent

By Sylvesterian Beats (Sylvester) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:59 pm:

That's not the point. The point is more about the way it's expressed.

Also, imho, making fun of _established_ members of the board is ok, unless it really geos toof ar. Making fun of someone who is compeltely new, however, that isn't as acceptable.

By Taeze on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:03 pm:

I see titles of respect are now taken to be sarcastic. If it'll make things easier, I'll refrain from ever showing respect for anyone here again.

Anyway, since you asked...

During the brief ( ~ 2 weeks) period I actually went to BDChat, Cid managed to become the biggest reason I chose never to go back. Debate with him over deck construction turned into something that resembles this (creative, and quite hilarious insults deleted for the sake of brevity):

Taeze/anyone that agreed with me: well, in this situation, XYZ would be good.
Cid: No, you're wrong, read the primer (assuming I hadn't)
T: I have, and when I play, it seems like ...
C: No, you're wrong, this was decided a long time ago... (leaving out the possibility that change can happen)

Etc. Etc. Ad nauseum. Basically, from my perspective it seemed that because he didn't know who I was, he assumed I was clueless. Generally, he made it an unpleasant channel to be in.

Maybe Cid said something about not including mIRC in the problem he feels exists, but if he did, I didn't catch it, and if you did, please show me so I can stop looking like a donkey.

By Rico Suave on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:08 pm:

Take Psycho Cid out of this. It goes much deeper than just him.

By Superman on dope (Dope) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:23 pm:

I think people end up branding someone an 'elitist' due to the fact the person sticks to the knowledge they possess and don't back down to arrogant claims otherwise, because they know they are right in the end.

It isn't so much as being elite, stuck-up or snobbish, but being human. Not everyone is as polite as we all wish, but that doesn't mean it's because they are uncaring or being a bastard. A lot of it boils down to misunderstanding, and lack of communication.

Rakso comes down on some people, but I have never seen him do so without justification. People sometimes don't seem to read or follow the rules of posting on BD's boards. He deletes some posts because either the person didn't respect the rules, or simply chose to ignore them.

I agree that he may have come of a little rough with Cid, but that doesn't mean that it can't be dealt with by simple communication.

Before branding someone an elitist, or trying to get them ousted form BD, try to understand and communicate.

P.S. Sorry guys, I don't seem to make much sense when I'm high...

By Mikey on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:56 pm:

I'm not sure I want to add my 2 cents to this discussion, as I'm not exactly an important member of BD, but I'll take my chances anyway.

This is the competitive T1 board, and as such, competitive T1 should be discussed. This board isn't about fun decks, I've got a recycle deck that can go off turn 3 and swing for over 800 points of trample damage. I don't post it here because it's too easy to disrupt, and usually fishes around turn 5, far too slow for any sort of competitive T1 play, even if it wasn't disruptable. In this respect I take issue with Cid's first post. This isn't about "fun" cards, it's about the most effective, efficient way to kill some one.
That being said, what is competitive is somewhat up in the air. There are certain hard rules that people follow that apply in 99.9% of decks... No arcane denial, no creature enchantments, that sort of thing. Of course, there ARE decks in which arcane denial is better than say force of will. Nobody will agree with me, but it's true. I play a lot of T2, and I watch the extended scene from time to time, and I will not hesitate to say that the decks that win are not the best decks. They are the decks piloted by the best players. Anyone remember Moti-Control from last year? Or how about Machine Head? Neither of those decks was good, in any sense of the word, not good like U/W Millstone, or Fires. Machine Head took World's, as a metagame response to a metagame response. That's just ridiculous. A good player could've walked in there with a well built U/W or Fires, and stomped the competition. I could have walked in with the same deck, and gotten stomped by the inferior machine head or saproling burt.
However, deck building is not a skill most of the pros possess. It's usually the scrubs that come up with the good decks and good cards, and then the pros just steal the idea and win with it. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can't make immutable rules. Donate sucks, that's an immutable rule. Then trix came along, and between that and pebbles, necro got banned. It still sees play in both T1 and extended, neo-trix having made a comeback just a month or two ago. Arcane Denial is card disadvantage. So is force of will. Unholy strength and sinister strength are card disadvantage. But when I swing for 10 second turn with a negator, do I care about the disadvantage? If you don't have StP, you're dead before you play your third land.

To those of you who consider yourself knowledgable regulars(Ahzrei, Matt D'Avanzo, JP Meyer, etc.), consider that sometimes bad cards make good decks. I'm not going to say my underworld dreams deck is a great deck, hell, it barely qualifies to be on this mill, it's definitely a low tier 2 or high tier 3, it's slightly less reliable then academy, but it's a perfect example. I was running 4 force and 2 drain. The best counterspells in the game, I've been told. It then moved to 4 duress, 2 addle, which worked better. Addle. Have you ever seen addle in a T1 deck? But it worked. Then it went to 4 REB and 2 Defense Grids, and that works even better. When is REB better than force of will? In underworld dreams. When is lim-dul's vault a must counter card? Underworld Dreams. REB sees sb play for keeper and sligh, but that's about it. I don't even think defense grids sees that. I KNOW for a FACT that lim-dul's vault doesn't see play in T1. All 3 cards are major parts of my dreams deck. I'm just trying to show how sub-optimal cards can be superb in the right deck. There's a deck out there for arcane denial too. It's called Arcane Lab. I'm not going to get into it, cuz it'd get ripped apart, again, it's not a tier 1 deck, but it'll take more than it's fair share of games against other control decks. Piloted by the right person, it could completely wreck a field of keeper/OSE/draw-go control decks. Parfait gives it issues, but that's beside the point.

Elitism existed here when I was a frequent visitor to this board, and I'm sure my less frequent appearances won't cause consternation to most of the people here, now, I mostly come by to see what's going on, and just refrain from posting.

The fact that this discussion is even here, and that it's reached the level that it has is a sign that something is wrong. From reading, it looks like a boiling ocean lies just inches below the surface, waiting for a cause to explode, and it needs to be defused before it does. I used to enjoy BD far more than say MTGNews, because at least here, people had SOME deck building skill. If I have to read one more post at MTG about how invincible psychatog is, I'm going to puke. It's a good deck, by all means, but not great. People were comparing it to Academy, and that's just ridiculous. At least here, I don't have to read crap like that. Instead, I see how the old guard sticks together to flood the page with posts on various versions of decks they come up with, and squeeze out newbies. I'm not saying that the decks are bad, it's just.... How revolutionary is OSE?? I like to look at original decks. A static metagame is boring. Fresh decks should be coming out all the time, even in T1, the metagame should be changing at least every couple months. Instead, reading here, I see the same stagnated decks.

My Two Cents,
Spikey Mikey

By Ocifer (Ocifer) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:23 am:

Yaknow, I refuse to name names or point fingers, but even when you argue how much you're NOT an elitist, you come off sounding undeniably elite. You simply brush Cid's problem away as if it never had any relavence in your world. It's as though, if you don't want it to exist in your little phantasy of what T1 is, then it simply doesn't exist. Well I refuse to sugar coat it, I agree totally with Cid's initial point (before he started back pedaling like a 70 year old biking up the Andes).
Welcome to the real world. Where new ideas exist whether you like them or not. Where I'll play a card if I think it's optimal until I'm convinced otherwise and where your opinion, respected or not, means nothing to me.
I'll look at any deck that's posted, and I'll even comment on some of them when I think I have something to add. I won't blatantly critize someones card choices. I won't tell them they are wrong. I'll make a helpful suggestion, hopefully plant a new idea, and whether they take it or not it none of my business. And, oh yeah, when a new deck idea comes along, I give it more than 5 minutes worth of consideration.
Nonetheless. Take me as you will, but I only listen to suggestions and new ideas, and all your elitist bull, and all your criticism goes right where it belongs, ingored.
Peace. Ocifer

By Random-Miser on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:39 am:

Wow lookee I'm famous LOL.....

The fact is that certain maintainers of this site coughRaksoCough typically behave in ways that are "unbefiting" a moderator. Acting childishly, and seemingly without the slightest reason behind theyre actions. It is something that should be dealt with, in fact NEEDS to be dealt with.

Rakso has proven time and time again that he is too immature to properly fullfill the requirements of a moderating position. He IMPERSONATES other members, including myself, he ALTERS posts in ways so as to make them offensive, he deletes relevant posts if they are not made by certain members, and he just generally abuses power as a mod, and makes a general menace of himself.

I respected site, should have a respectable Mod...not one who has a pathalogical fear of Sedge Trolls :rolleyes:

By Superman on dope (Dope) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:42 am:


Welcome to the real world. Where new ideas exist whether you like them or not. Where I'll play a card if I think it's optimal until I'm convinced otherwise and where your opinion, respected or not, means nothing to me.


New ideas definitely exist. I think most will agree with that. Heck, every proven card/deck/theory used to be a new idea at one point. New ideas are/should be welcome, and time and testing will prove wheter these ideas are any good or not.

Some of these ideas are dismissed because they may not be "new" ideas at all. Nobody deserves to be branded an 'elitist' for that.

By Dr. Hannibal Lecter on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:47 am:

well, i guess i have to say something... i like cid a lot... when i first came to bdominia, and consequently #bdchat, cid was the first person i chatted with with any regularity... I personally have no problem with this board, as i dont take this game seriously, and i play online occasionally for fun... granted, i play to win, because winning is fun for me... i respect rakso, but neither like, nor dislike him... i mainly respect him for the time he has devoted to keeper... his star city articles are wonderful... if i were to spend any real time on MTG, play in real life, or even own any cards, i can assure you that i would be the most elitist bastard on this mill... but thats part of the fun... we all have "personalities" that we build through the written word... what fun would it be without the villains negator, legend and miser? what makes them Good villains is that they are fundamentally good players. I said this once in #bdchat:
i like legend, he has a goal... to win... so he drops a morphling and does just that... no bullshit, just wins... azhrei... well... he never posts replies to my posts, but i read stuff he writes... so i am neutral on that one... i really think some of you take this game way to seriously, but hey, to each his own... I invented modern keeper... after weissman switched his build to mystical tutors and amnesia recursion... i started with the tutor skeleton and had one course of action in mind... cast ancestral until you cant possibly lose... this was back in the dojo's glory days... but do i have any inherrant respect here? no. do i care? HAH! hell naw... i do have a level of respect in #bdchat, but its based on entertainment value and a little game i call "how fast can i get banned from xyz channel and how offensive can i be while DUI?"... and i will accept that as my role in the MTG community... if anyone cared to listen, sure i could offer some valuable insight to this game... but im not going to go out on a limb to produce it... because i dont really care... if i post something, and it gets axed, i dotn lose any sleep... and for the record... i like legend, negator and miser... i like cid... i like shadow, nargot and whoever else... i respect rakso, azhrei, jp... etc... but my favorite is meridian... 'cause he really knows how to get a good fuckup on...

By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:23 am:

How about this: If you don't like Rakso, post who you would want to be the mod here.

By TomM on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:24 am:

me, me!

By JP 'Polluted' Meyer, the Archivist (Jpmeyer) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:28 am:

Oh yeah and my vote would go to Nameless

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:33 am:

Vote Matt, he can't possibly be elitist!

By Gravity on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:35 am:

I'm voting Negator - and after a few days you'll prolly beg Rasko back with a bag-o-cookies.

Seriously, no one _really_ needs to replaced, just a relax on the caustic, sometimes knee-jerk reactions to some threads.

Oh and rainbows, and puppydogs, and all that stuff too.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 01:43 am:


----- Original Message -----
From: Oscar Tan
To: BD -- Psychocid
Cc: BD -- K-Run
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 3:43 AM
Subject: "Elitism" comments

Due to complaints, I'd like to request that you refrain from butting into threads and posting messages accusing someone of being elitist, etc.

It's no longer funny.

Please note that further violations may lead to the other sanctions.

Oscar Tan

You were warned.

The warning was for posting a post complaining about "elitism" in the middle of a thread between CF, Azhrei and D'Avanzo. The post was deleted, along with the consequent flames.

Past Cid posts have also been on the same topic, not deckbuilding.

Also, campaigning for Random-Miser and Negator despite their long record of flames on this site doesn't give you any special privileges, either. Arguments about you being singled out aren't going to wash.

So, yes, I will revoke your account.

By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 02:50 am:

This is in reply to Psycho Cid and other people whining about elitism.

Re: "absolute power corrupts absolutely."

This is without a doubt the most moronic missuse of a quote I have ever seen. Psycho Cid, get a fucking life! You really have nothing better to do than complain about the so-called politics of an internet discussion board dedicated to a lame-ass CARD GAME for geeks. Absolute power over Beyond Dominia is ours! Wow! Dare to dream! This is even better than moving out of my parent's basement! Yippie!

Re: Elitism

Cid, if being an elitist means not listening to incompetants such as yourself then yes, I am an elitist.

I'll explain it in clear cut terms--we (Az, myself, JP, etc.) do actually consider a multitude of new ideas before we (this is key, make sure you're following me because I've noticed you often leave out this step) THROW OUT THE ONES THAT SUCK IN TESTING.

The problem is you show us (purely non-hypothetical example) your Oath deck with 2 Wastelands, 2 Mana Drains, and no LoA. We tell you that there are some problems with it. Hell, we even do it nicely. Then you complain that we're closeminded. Perhaps, just perhaps, YOU (and others like you on this site) are closeminded because you either can't refute our ideas or don't want to take the time to try (I know, reading is tiring), you really have nothing else to resort to other than craying "elitist snobs!"

I don't mean to shock you, but in Magic or any other minor/major situation in life there are some people that just know more than you--for whatever reason. When I studied martial arts I didn't say, "Elitist snob!" when a more experienced student said, "Hey, you're doing that throw wrong. It's like this." I listened and later when I became more proficient, if something needed specific personal adjustments I was able to do so with the experience I had gained from others. I'm not even laying claim to being in that "more experienced others" category. All I'm saying is that those people exist no matter what and this fact tends to annoy only those whose skills don't match up to their large, yet oh-so-fragile egos.

Notice that, aside from obvious things like "NO, Sligh should not run Lightning Blast. NO! listen, STOP IT!", I really don't care if anyone on this site agrees or disagrees with me? I'm here to throw out my opinions for feedback and discuss other people's ideas. If everyone agrees with me then I learn absolutely nothing. I you want to post a deck and have morons adore you go to MTG News.

Re: Who would I like to see Mod the site instead of Rakso?

I want Lava to mod the site. That boy just has such a way with words. Seriously, I say let Cid do it and see if he can do a better job. I know I sure as hell wouldn't want the headache of managing an internet site frequented by some of the most testy people in the cosmos. Seriously, is everyone just bored out of their skulls and figures the best way to kill time is to bitch and argue?

Don't think that I'm angry. I've never gotten angry at anything related to a card game (I'm actually enjoying a healthy laugh at the idea of posting something with this title). I think a large portion of people that frequent this site are acting ridiculous, but it isn't my place to make social commentary. No, as an elitist snob it is merely place to sit on my pedestal, toss Az (sitting across from me in his Ivory Tower) some Grey Poupon, and laugh at you.

Let me know when you're all done acting like petty jackasses and we can talk about fun stuff like deckbuilding again.


By White Knight (White_Knight) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 02:55 am:

Acting as you are now, not only reveals your inaptitude to be able to argue politefuly as it gives more reason to Cid.