Stompy and sideboard questions

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Stompy and sideboard questions

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By Thallid on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:26 am:

Hi, I'm new to type 1 and interested in playing Stompy. Are there any new changes to the old Stompy deck on the primer?

Creatures (31)
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Lyrist
4 Wild Dogs
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Hidden Gibbons
4 Quirion Sentinel
4 River Boa
4 Vine Dryad

Pump (10)
4 Giant Growth
4 Rancor
2 Bounty of the Hunt

Other tricks (3)
3 Winter Orb

Mana (16)
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
7 Forest
1 Pendelhaven

Also, how does SB look like?

Please help, thanks.


By Razor (Razor) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 05:32 am:

Stompy is a great T1 starter deck. Sligh or SuiBlack is a great next-step deck.

Quirion Sentinel is suboptimal; consider Skyshroud Ridgeback. Giant Growth could be Briar Shield.

SB:
4 Null Rod (Moxen)
4 Elvish Lyrist (Moat/Abyss)
4 Rushwood Legate
1 Hidden Gibbons
2 Hidden Herd


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 09:30 am:

Wow, thats a complicated question. Theres alot of debate about how best to build stompy for a competitive type I environment right now.

To respond to razor: Ridgeback is quite unpopular with alot of folks and unserstandably so. Its fading can be a royal pain sometimes. I'm not saying don't play it, just that its not an automatic choice. But yes, quirion sentinel sucks.

Also, null rod is not for moxen. Its there to stop keg, and to a lesser extent masticore, zuran orb, nevinyrral's disk, cursed scroll, etc. The fact that it shuts down mana acceleration against control and combo is but a nifty bonus.

As for Giant Growth becoming Briar Shield, I disagree. The argument that shield is better than growth is somewhat conditional. By playing both shield and rancor you potentially make the sligh match-up more dangerous. Running shields with only two instant pump spells (as posted in his deck less 4 growths) is begging to lose to sligh. For this deck to be good, one of its selling points must be that it beats sligh. One solution is to add more pump so you can just play both :)

Anyway, lest I say too much and draw the ire of some of my fellow BDers, let me just post my deck and let someone else fill in the blanks:

creatures (21)
4 rogue elephant
4 skyshroud elite
4 ghazban ogre (>wild dogs)
4 skyshroud ridgeback
4 quirion ranger
1 hidden gibbons

pump (17)
4 giant growth
4 rancor
4 briar shield
4 bounty of the hunt


disruption (4)
null rod

mana (18)
13 forest
4 elvish spirit guide
1 black lotus

SB: 3 hidden gibbons
SB: 4 tranquil domain
SB: 4 rushwood legate
SB: 4 whirling dervish/river boa

I'm also interested in discussing sideboard strategies for the deck


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:40 pm:

There's also a couple of really good Stompy lists that are close to the primer. Here's the (powered; just replace them with Forests if need be) list that Azhrei, Matt, JP, and I kick around occasionally.

4x Hidden Herd
4x Skyshroud Elite
4x Ghazban Ogre
4x Rogue Elephant
4x River Boa
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Elvish Lyrist

4x Giant Growth
4x Rancor
4x Bounty of the Hunt

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Land Grant
10x Forest
(1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus), Forests 11 and 12 otherwise

Sideboard:
4x Rushwood Legate
4x Hidden Gibbons
4x Null Rod
3x Tranquil Domain

Strategy: Complete balls to the wall aggression. There are few aggro decks that you should fear by having 32 creatures and pump to protect the ones that you might like to have around. Control decks can't handle the overwhelming first rush very well. Stompy and it's multicolor derivatives are VERY effective decks.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 01:16 pm:

Ok, first a quibble: elvish lyrist should be replaced with druid lyrist to avoid random things such as engineered plague.

Now let me explain why I think this deck isn't close to being optimized:

4x Hidden Herd
4x Skyshroud Elite
4x Ghazban Ogre
4x Rogue Elephant
4x River Boa
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Elvish Lyrist

Well, at least they finally stopped playing wild dogs over ghazbans :) The whole "we have 32 creatures" thing is way overblown. You only have 32 if you count esg and you really only have 20 beatdown creatures (i.e power>=2) one of which costs 2 mana (boa) and another that is quite erratic(herd). But that probably won't stop people from crying foul that I "only" have 17 creatures.

Besides, rancor and briar shield act like psuedo creatures anyway in the sense that they stick around.

Now, I'll cede that ridgeback isn't my favorite choice for a creature spot, but I honestly think its better than any of the alternatives.

Now about lyrist: what enchantment is it you fear that isn't backed up by counters? Thats right unless you slip it past counters early it will just get countered. Moat is seeing less use with every passing day, lyrist doesn't do a heck of alot against an oath deck anyway, and abyss rarely beats you unless backed with multiple spot removals spells. Artifacts (specifically keg followed by masticore) always bother me alot more than enchantments.

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Land Grant
10x Forest
(1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus), Forests 11 and 12 otherwise

Land grants are not good in type I stompy. They're just not. Forget that you can't play strip/waste and grants. Basically anytime you play agaisnt control the one grant hand is an auto-mulligan. In addition, because you have 4 grants instead of extra forests you run a much greater chance of nerfing yourself with your own rogue elephants. Then add in how little they do for you (pitch to bounty, thin your deck) and you can only come to one conclusion: they suck. Besides the deck thinning aspect rarely draws you into a business card instead of a forest anyway.

And really, how do they sideboard vs. sligh? I have problems with that myself and am thinking of changing ghazban to vine dryad bc of this dilemma. Look at their creature base vs sligh: herds which are basically never creatures, elite which are 1/1s, ghazbans which must be sided out likely for gibbons, and lyrists which are more 1/1s. That means game 1 your only offense is rogues and boas plus some 1/1s.

I know cadets are a big liability against stompy, but a gorilla shaman seems like it could slow this down by a turn all by itself.

Sideboard:
4x Rushwood Legate
4x Hidden Gibbons
4x Null Rod
3x Tranquil Domain

With boa maindeck and legates in the side, exactly when do you side in null rod? Or perhaps the better question is: what are you using null rod for? Also, you're already playing 4 maindeck lyrists, what the heck are the domains for? Would you honestly side them in along with lyrists vs anything other parfait or enchantress?

P.S. the irrational hatred of vine dryad confuses me. Everybody is insisting on playing land grants. That actually makes dryad pretty passable. Even without grants its playable, although I'm not its biggest fan.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 01:52 pm:

First of all, KirdApe's Stompy deck is optimal until the make a green Savannah Lions. I personally prefer to maindeck Gibbons over Herds, but that's just me.

"Besides, rancor and briar shield act like psuedo creatures anyway in the sense that they stick around."

No, they aren't, because they can't do anything on their own. They are incapable of dealing damage without a delivery system, and do NOT count as even half a creature.

"Now about lyrist: what enchantment is it you fear that isn't backed up by counters?"

The Abyss, which is capable of single-handedly stopping your ability to recover from Keg or Balance. "Backed by counters" is nothing more than an excuse that bad aggro players use as a cop-out when they lose due to bad deckbuilding.

"Land grants are not good in type I stompy."

This is patently false. It's just outright not true at all. Statements like this show a strong misconception of how to win versus the dominant Type One decks.

"And really, how do they sideboard vs. sligh? That means game 1 your only offense is rogues and boas plus some 1/1s."

Gibbons in, Herds out. Maybe a couple Null Rods to deal with Cursed Scrolls. Stompy (which is to say a good Stompy deck with Land Grants) will almost always beat Sligh. A Sligh deck can simply not race Stompy because Stompy can trade 1:1 on threats all day and still come out far ahead IF the Stompy deck does not suck. The additional pump spells make the race that much better for Stompy, since if you can absorb 1-2 burn spells with Giant Growth or Bounty of the Hunt, that's the game right there.

And here's some fun math for you: 2/1 Pup versus 1/1 Elite means that both still die. Stompy WILL win a 1:1 trading race, and it WILL win a no blocking damage race.

"With boa maindeck and legates in the side, exactly when do you side in null rod?"

Powder Keg, anyone?

"Also, you're already playing 4 maindeck lyrists, what the heck are the domains for? Would you honestly side them in along with lyrists vs anything other parfait or enchantress?"

Potentially, yes. If you can hit two cards and not lose a creature to do so, then you do it. The Lyrists are there because they are enchantment removal that is never a dead card, not because they are sufficient removal by themselves.

"P.S. the irrational hatred of vine dryad confuses me. Everybody is insisting on playing Land Grants."

This twofold event is emanating from the fact that you are talking to several competent players at once.

I have an idea: why don't you write up an article on how you think Stompy should be built and played, and then submit it to StarCity. It shouldn't take more than a few pages. Let's see what you've got.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:39 pm:


Quote:

First of all, KirdApe's Stompy deck is optimal until the make a green Savannah Lions. I personally prefer to
maindeck Gibbons over Herds, but that's just me.




They did print a green savannah lions. Only problem is its in portal. gibbons are somewhat of an improvement but even more erratic than herd.


Quote:

Besides, rancor and briar shield act like psuedo creatures anyway in the sense that they stick around."

No, they aren't, because they can't do anything on their own. They are incapable of dealing damage without a
delivery system, and do NOT count as even half a creature.




The point being they normally deal damage over two or more turns much like a creature would in many situations. Not worth debating.


Quote:

"Now about lyrist: what enchantment is it you fear that isn't backed up by counters?"

The Abyss, which is capable of single-handedly stopping your ability to recover from Keg or Balance. "Backed by
counters" is nothing more than an excuse that bad aggro players use as a cop-out when they lose due to bad
deckbuilding.




The Abyss isn't worth playing lyrists main for. Even if they don't get countered, people are playing targeted spot removal again, so they'll just get killed before abyss comes out. Also balance...well if you want to play balance agaisnt stompy be my guest. Anyway, in this case the bad deckbuilding seems squarely on you.


Quote:

"Land grants are not good in type I stompy."

This is patently false. It's just outright not true at all. Statements like this show a strong misconception of how to
win versus the dominant Type One decks.




Aren't we being a little pedantic here? You haven't refuted any of my arguments or given me anything at all to rebut so...on to the next topic


Quote:

"And really, how do they sideboard vs. sligh? That means game 1 your only offense is rogues and boas plus some
1/1s."

Gibbons in, Herds out. Maybe a couple Null Rods to deal with Cursed Scrolls. Stompy (which is to say a good
Stompy deck with Land Grants) will almost always beat Sligh. A Sligh deck can simply not race Stompy because
Stompy can trade 1:1 on threats all day and still come out far ahead IF the Stompy deck does not suck. The
additional pump spells make the race that much better for Stompy, since if you can absorb 1-2 burn spells with
Giant Growth or Bounty of the Hunt, that's the game right there.

And here's some fun math for you: 2/1 Pup versus 1/1 Elite means that both still die. Stompy WILL win a 1:1
trading race, and it WILL win a no blocking damage race.




IIRC you're suggesting that I leave ghazbans in games 2-3 for this match-up??? Whos suffering from the misconception again?

At anyrate, I think your comments here reflect a lack of experience in the match-up as this was almost exactly what I thought until I playtested against sligh. Its a much more formidable foe than you give it credit for.


Quote:

With boa maindeck and legates in the side, exactly when do you side in null rod?"

Powder Keg, anyone?




but you're already pretty resilient to keg so maybe a more permanent answer to problem artifacts is in order?


Quote:

"Also, you're already playing 4 maindeck lyrists, what the heck are the domains for? Would you honestly side
them in along with lyrists vs anything other parfait or enchantress?"

Potentially, yes. If you can hit two cards and not lose a creature to do so, then you do it. The Lyrists are there
because they are enchantment removal that is never a dead card, not because they are sufficient removal by
themselves.




I'm very interested in which match-ups you think this would be true. I've never found it so in my testing, but perhaps its worth looking into. Your last comment underscores my objection to lyrist in the maindeck btw.


Quote:

"P.S. the irrational hatred of vine dryad confuses me. Everybody is insisting on playing Land Grants."

This twofold event is emanating from the fact that you are talking to several competent players at once.




It seems like you've taken my question out of context. What do you mean?


Quote:

I have an idea: why don't you write up an article on how you think Stompy should be built and played, and then
submit it to StarCity. It shouldn't take more than a few pages. Let's see what you've got.




I'd prefer to see my ideas tested, modified and improved upon in practice. I don't see the point of writing an article on this since we're talking about a highly specialized and heavily meta-gamed deck for a format few people are even familiar with. I think my comments amply reflect my thinking regarding stompy for competitive powered type I


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

I play Quirion Sentinel, its not nearly as bad as ppl say it is. It lets me play 2 creatures on turn 2 just as if it cost one mana. I play it over River Boa for a few reasons: First of all, vs Sligh, you cant wait to get to 3 mana before you cast Boa which means it will get toasted ASAP 9 times out of 10. Also, the Islandwalk is almost never a factor in my testing as i can usually outrace control anyway. Im not saying Sentinels are better than Boas, its up to you to decide which works better but i prefer the added speed over the regen.

I would also like to note that Azhrei is right on about the Sligh matchup, its almost impossible for them to race you and thier creatures are too fragile.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:19 pm:

Well, Quirion Sentinel is not as bad as people say it is, but thats not saying much. However, your points about boa are right on, which explains why boa is so marginal in the deck.

I really disagree about the Sligh match-up being heavily in stompy's favor tho...


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:30 pm:

In order, I'll do the talking.

Pump vs. Creatures: This means that you eschew any chance for a recovery after a board-sweeping spell for a more powerful initial rush. To me, this is flawed because the board-clearing spell will happen at least 1 in 3 games faster than your kill will. Are you willing to concede that one game? More creatures mean that you draw into them better, and can afford to get your board wiped.

Lyrists maindeck: Like it or not, The Abyss absolutely murders you faster than you'd think. So does Moat. So does a couple of other annoying enchantments. I'd rather not concede those games, either, so four of these sit in my maindeck.

Land Grant: Land Grant allows you to have non-creature, non-pump spells to throw at Bounty of the Hunt. Also, there aren't that many control matchups where I'm afraid to mulligan anyways due to the ability to draw one creature every other turn. So running 10 Forests and 4 Grants means that you topdeck better than 14 Forests does (an extra Forest is a wasted draw, while a Grant thins the deck further and can be pitched).

Stompy vs. Sligh: About the only ways that Sligh will win this matchup are if they manage to get out a Cursed Scroll and you can't draw guys to save your life or they manage to draw a perfect hand and you a terrible one. This is a heavily-playtested matchup for me, and I win about 65% of the time before siding. Again, advantage to having more creatures... individual creatures are less important.

Powder Keg: Stompy will NEVER be resilient to Keg. Ever. All of your guys save one are 1cc, and it just wipes your board clean. Keg is my worst fear playing Stompy. Null Rods are also useful as hell when they stop Masticores and other annoying things.

Tranquil Domain in the sideboard: In case of Parfait/Enchantress. Nobody around me plays these decks anymore, but since I feel you only need 12 cards for other purposes that these are a logical choice.

Don't confuse this with elitism. I've tested both versions, and I have concluded that Azhrei's and Matt's is superior to your own. If you wish, when I have the time I will do so again and report (10 games, five pre- and five post- sideboard) against a gauntlet of decks of your choice. My original testing is that my version's at least 1 game better in those conditions than yours is. Please don't confuse this with 'elitism' or other such bullshit. This is just my testing.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:40 pm:

Re: Creatures vs. Pump: 32 (28 if you don't count

ESG) Critters, 12 Pump is the right ratio. Adding any more pump is outright dumb becuae you will run into scenarios where a 1-for-1 removal spell, Balance, or trying to feed the Abyss for a last point of damage or so will cause you to topdeck pump spells and make you LOSE. I've seen this happen again and again. Adding assy creatures to the mix like Ridgeback just confounds the matter. Furthermore saying that you need more Pump against Sligh to save creatures
is ridiculous since laiyng another creature after they burn one is the exact same thing. Playing 16 Pump spells is like me playing 10 lands in Academy--makes goldfishing a hell of a lot faster/smoother, but in the real world where people kill your creatures/land on sight...

Re: Sligh vs. Stompy

Sligh dies unless your hand is a pile of ass or you play like a fool (doopdie doo...Rancor my guy...oh bolt him? damn...). Gibbons are a nightmare for them, Boas are a nightmare for them, pump spells are 1cc counterspells. They only have 12 creatures (16 at the mot) and 2 of them (Pup/Cadet) are not suited for creatuyre combat. Rods or Worbs mess with Scroll. They have 4 dead POP against you game one....WHAT is the problem?

Re: Ogres vs. Dogs

Dogs are better creatures overall, but now that I've made Fire/Ice popular I wanted to switch.

Re: Druid vs. Elvish Lyrist

My Elvish Lyrists are foil and Percy Shelley is my favorite poet--so no way would I use the Druid.

Hidden Gibbons are good against every deck except mono-black (so they get pitched to Bounty there). Hidden Herds get there slot against Keeper and other dual-ladden decks, like the Patriot.

I like my stompy deck as it works very well against the best decks at Neutral Ground. If was were to play something different I'd go with Redman's Stompy deck that splashes red for just Bolt and Kird Ape--it's a solid deck and managed to stay very focused even with the addition of a second color. Use the search function to find it if you want. I imagine it is slightly worse against Sligh with the Bolts over 4 Bounty(although he could side in Fire/Ice to be really mean--I wonder if that's in his SB...), but probabl does better against other aggro decks overall with the ability to kill an annoying threat (like a first striking knight).

--Matt


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:42 pm:

Oh yeah and not using Land Grant is just plain CRAZY. Cite all hte numerial statistics you want, but they don't refute common sense. Land Grant is not only a valuable thinner, BUT if you draw them later (when they would have just been a dumb, superflous forest) gives you 4 green totally non-essential spells to pitch to Bounty.

--Matt


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:53 pm:

Other people have disagreed with my statement that Stompy is better than Sligh as well, until the bother testing the matchup and win almost every game.

"Anyway, in this case the bad deckbuilding seems squarely on you."

Blame Matt and his 1850 Vintage rating for that.

"Aren't we being a little pedantic here?"

If by pedantic you mean "using proven ideas to win consistently and play the best deck possible," then yes.

"IIRC you're suggesting that I leave ghazbans in games 2-3 for this match-up??? Whos suffering from the misconception again?"

Yes, I would leave them in. I can fully expect to never have them leave my side in a Sligh matchup.

"Its a much more formidable foe than you give it credit for."

You are forgetting to take one thing into account: your deck is bad.

"but you're already pretty resilient to keg so maybe a more permanent answer to problem artifacts is in order?"

No you aren't! You have got to be JOKING. Keg murders Stompy like no other card.

"Your last comment underscores my objection to lyrist in the maindeck btw."

::sigh:: No, it doesn't. Not one bit. Lyrists are not adequate enchantment removal to reliably deal with a deck with Moat, the Abyss, or maybe a couple copies of either. However, not running them main deck means that you can have auto-loss cards come into play that are main decked by Keeper, the deck to beat.

"It seems like you've taken my question out of context. What do you mean?"

Work with me here a little. You said "Statement X. Statement Y." and then went off on some little conclusion tying them together. I simply said that people dislike one and not the other because they're competent.

"I'd prefer to see my ideas tested, modified and improved upon in practice."

I'd like to see that too.

"I think my comments amply reflect my thinking regarding stompy for competitive powered type I."

Indeed.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 04:08 pm:


Quote:

Don't confuse this with elitism. I've tested both versions, and I have concluded that Azhrei's and Matt's is superior
to your own. If you wish, when I have the time I will do so again and report (10 games, five pre- and five post-
sideboard) against a gauntlet of decks of your choice. My original testing is that my version's at least 1 game
better in those conditions than yours is. Please don't confuse this with 'elitism' or other such bullshit. This is just
my testing.




Not at all :) I'm very interested in differing opinions on the deck.


Quote:

Pump vs. Creatures: This means that you eschew any chance for a recovery after a board-sweeping spell for a
more powerful initial rush. To me, this is flawed because the board-clearing spell will happen at least 1 in 3 games
faster than your kill will. Are you willing to concede that one game? More creatures mean that you draw into them
better, and can afford to get your board wiped.




The difference we're talking about is essentially one creature slot -- not THAT significant. However, while more pump makes the deck less stable it also makes it faster, in some games up to a turn faster. Hence, sometimes you can simply avoid a board-clearing spell by winning before it hits. Contrast this with your approach whihc is to try and recover from it. Unfortunately recovery strikes me as unlikely with either deck. Now if your deck proved significantly more resilient that would be something else altogether, but I've never found that to be the case.

Really you have 3 more beatdown creatures than me and elvish lyrists where I have briar shield and null rod. Plus you have at least a little mana issue since boa costs 2 and 1 to regen. Not to mention that your herds will not always even be a creature. I find it hard to believe that lyrist will deal more damage on average than a briar shield. Will briar shield occasionally cost me a game bc sligh bolts in response or I don't have a critter? Of course, but I think it will be instrumental in more victories than a creature in its place. I think the extent of your recovery>mine is that boa evades keg. But heck we're both normally siding in legates against decks with keg (excepting void :)) So this is a minimal advantage to my mind


Quote:

Lyrists maindeck: Like it or not, The Abyss absolutely murders you faster than you'd think. So does Moat. So
does a couple of other annoying enchantments. I'd rather not concede those games, either, so four of these sit in
my maindeck.




Not really. What board clearing spell does keeper run thats effective against me? (i.e. other than balance). So unless they're able to edict/plow away multiple creatures prior to playing abyss, its unlikely they will achieve an abyss lock before I kill them. Fire/Ice is typically useless for them since almost all of my creatures except queers have 3 toughness (if I switch ghazbans to VDs)

So thats 2 spot removal spells, one of which isn't guaranteed to take out a 2 power creature. As for Moat, well I DO side in domains just in case. But Moat is slower than Abyss so its possible to win before it can be cast. Besides you will almost never see Moat game 1 in Keeper.

I grant that Abyss is more problematic against OSE since they run kegs but I'd much rather run rods to stop the offending sweeper than worry about a card that only beats me if I've already lost due to keg.

I can't think of many other decks running abyss...

As for Moat, in builds I've seen, parfait has dropped this for humility which is less effective. Enchantress however plays Moat coupled with sterling grove. This is really why I feel Domain is the superior option over lyrists or charms.

Other enchantments that kill you: well, lets see theres...OATH. Oath is bad for you. But enchantment removal is sometimes less than spectacular unless you can prevent them from getting even a single use out of it. In the controllish versions of TurboLand I've played Oath has really turned the tide against me. I'm pretty sure if not for oath, I'd have a much easier time agaisnt it since its not nearly as fast as Academy and doesn't run enough counters to play like bbs against me (i.e. counter all my creatures for several turns)

But thats a long way of saying oath is a problem, but thankfully not very many people play oath and besides, lyrists aren't that effective against it anyway:( Another point is that by denying oath moxen acceleration it makes oathing up any mana intensive creature (morphling, masticore) early pretty mediocre. I don't honestly know but I might leave the rods in against a dedicated Oath deck over domains since they don't necessarily need oath to win. Keeper Oath I'm less worried about. If Oath got to be a real problem Cursed Totem has proven reasonably effective in the past

Thoughts on other enchantments that beat me?


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 04:43 pm:

Well, I was going to respond some more, but its become evident that this is just going to turn into a pissing match of sorts that is neither productive or enjoyable.

The only clarification I'd like to make is that I wasn't implying that stompy can ever be immune to powder keg, only that with 8 critters that don't cost 1 you at least have a fighting chance to recover. Couple that with the fact that rod can be removed itself (funker sometimes even runs viashino heretics to this end) and perhaps emerald charm would be better here. Charm is more versatile but often times cannot kill a masticore. Scavenger Folk is another consideration; hell even crumble could be an option. Of course killing that masticore comes at a pretty stiff premium then:( The idea being to avoid another 2cc slot in the deck


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

Let me get this straight...Abyss is NOT scary enough to run Lyrist maindeck. What crack are you smoking? I'm not trying to be rude, but really, that's crazy-talk.

I am fully aware that Abyss is scarier in OSE, but it's still a card that you probbly lose to against Keeper since you play less creatures and no enchantment kill.

>>>Hence, sometimes you can simply avoid a board-clearing spell by winning before it hits. Contrast this with your approach whihc is to try and recover from it. Unfortunately recovery strikes me as unlikely with either deck.

What?! Stompy can't recover well? Even on an empty hand (and they held back a guy probably if they are smart) more than half the deck is ceatures....draw random creature from deck, play random creature, continue assualt. Stompy has THE most consistent topdecks of any deck I've ever seen in my life.

Re: Tranquil Domains

I side them in against Keeper (Moat/Abyss) in ADDITION to the 4 MD Lyrists, in ADDITION to Hidden Herds, in addition to Legates, and (if they play kegs) in addition to Null Rods. Enchantress, Parfait, etc. also demand the Domains

If you prefer Emerald Charms, fine, use Charm. I like the idea that I can sweep a Moat and Abyss off the table in one shot...maybe a Sylvan as a bonus even. However, there isn't anything wrong with Charm (and sometimes it's cheaper CC makes it better). Domain is much beter against Enchantress and Parfait though...

--Matt


By Andrew, the Sphinx Slayer (Andrew) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 05:07 pm:

If you are claiming 'complete balls to the wall agression' then lyrists have absolutely no place in the deck. They're not agressive, and they usually don't protect vs oath or abyss anyway. Or moat, most of the time.

And for gods sake, if you're going to play land grant, play vine dryad. Land grant has NO USEFUL THINING EFFECT. Matt: In common terms, going with 'common sense' over actual information is usually called being a stuborn fool. And given that it won't be uncommon for up to 5 of your own forests to be destroyed, there are plenty of times - particularly with the mana intensive boa - in which I'd rather have a forest than a land grant.


By Wu Affiliate (Wu) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 05:24 pm:

//NAME: PumpUpTheOgre
// Creator: wuaffiliate
// March 20 2002
// Date: March 10 2002
// Version: 2.1
// Mana
7 Forest
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Quirion Ranger
// Pump
4 Rancor
4 Giant Growth
3 Winter Orb
2 Bounty of the Hunt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Berserk
// Creatures
4 Vine Dryad
4 River Boa
4 Quirion Sentinel
4 Skyshroud Ridgeback
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Ghazban Ogre
SB: 4 Elvish Lyrist
SB: 4 Rushwood Legate
SB: 4 Hidden Herd
SB: 3 Null Rod

still working on the creature base, boas are out soon.

and to the stompy rapes sligh thing, its completely true! i was a sceptic untill 2 weeks ago, when i actually tested it :)


By Jeff on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 05:27 pm:

Az... for someone that's so good at magic you really don't hold up to arguments... For us players that aren't as good as you (And yes I really do mean that as opposed to being sarcastic) you really should give more reasoning in your ripping apart other players reasonings...
saying things like "Your Deck sucks" just doesn't help us sucky players from understanding where you're coming from... So maybe in your arguments you could explain why your choices are better than someone elses instead of just saying things like "What you say is ridiculous, your deck isn't like mine and since I win more games it just simply means that I rock and you suck".
Don't get me wrong... I couldn't tell you 5 ways from sunday why you'd chooose certain cards over others, but since you claim to know, you could enlighten us...


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 06:15 pm:

He has tried, several times, to explain why certain cards dont belong in Stompy but no one listens. There was an entire thread(a rather lenghty one) where Az explained why Wastes have no place in Stompy and why Vine Dryad is ass but hardly anyone seems to listen and instead of playtesting they just blindly argue their side. I was guilty of the latter for a while until i built a Stompy deck and tested it myself.

Note: All of you ppl not running Hidden Gibbons and Rogue Elephant need to wake up, they are your biggest creatures. Who cares about saccing a forest anyway?


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 06:53 pm:

Az offered his opinion on wastelands but it didn't seem like a very enlightened one to me. I believe it involved the fact that wasteland was a colorless source. Considering everyone I know who played it regarded it as a spell not a mana source...


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 04:20 pm:

Kirdape I like the list you posted WAAAY up there but I have a question:

is berserk a worthy spell to put up there? It seems like it would be a nice addition. thanks.


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 11:00 pm:

It's Matt and Azhrei's list. I was the one that told them both that Vine Dryad was bad :-).

Berserk is only worth it after a pump spell, and with only 12 in the deck there's not much point to having a Seething Anger that kills your guys.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:54 am:

>>I was the one that told them both that Vine Dryad was bad :-).

I'm going to get J.P. to eat you.

--Matt


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 03:00 am:

according to stack rules should you cast berserk first and then in response play the other pump spell, so the pump spell resolves first THEN the berserk?


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 10:04 am:

No, I wouldn't put them on the stack at the same time at all normally. Then you'd have to cast berserk before the pump spell. So when your opponent sees you cast berserk on a 2 power critter, he pretty much knows you're going to follow with another pump spell.

Play the pump spell first usually. See if they respond to that before you berserk it.

Things to remember about berserk:
-It only kills the creature if it attacks
-It can only be played before the combat damage step so you can't kill an attacking creature without doubling its damage (and giving it trample)
-Berserk is triplely dependent: you must have a critter, pump it, and berserk it for berserk to work.
-Unless you can use it in this manner to win on turn 2-3 its worth plummets as you routinely goldfish on turn 4 anyway.
-Hence winning with it on turn 2-3 probably entails drawing a hand full of pump that you would likely be better off parising unless you're gold-fishing
-If berserk doesn't win you the game you're typically screwed as you've now used up two pump spells and a critter for next to nothing in return.
-Unlike gg, bounty, and briar shield berserk cannot be used to save your creatures.
-Until they unrestrict it, like black vise, its effectively banned in my book.

So thats the paint by numbers approach to why berserk is bad in my humble estimation :)

The counter argument is pretty much along the same lines: without it you can't win turn 2 and not that often on turn 3.


By Pernicious Dude (Pern) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

Lot of black disruption here.
Anybody try Compost?


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 06:27 pm:

Whirling Dervish is typically more versatile since it also evades keg at 1 and abyss quite nicely. If compost were all that good I think I would be using sylvan library too...(which, having tried briefly, I strongly recommend against)


By Pernicious Dude (Pern) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 08:08 pm:

I've always sides Dervishes and rarely been pleased.
My maindeck Gibbons are more useful.
How bad do they want that first turn Hyppie?

Sylvan doesn't draw cards, unless you want to pay life.
It doesn't even cantrip, so it actively sets you back.
That's fatal for Stompy, which already runs a lot of card disadvantage.
Compost could fill your hand.

Haven't tried it, though.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 08:41 pm:

The only black cards you can send to the graveyard are creatures killed in combat or cards they sac to negator (provided they don't sac swamps). You have no way to counter anything or make them discard. Plus milling them I believe thats the only ways to draw cards off compost

Also it says black card so I don't think it will trigger on zombie tokens leaving play.

Honestly, Gibbons are mediocre to terrible against suicide especially game one when they have little if any creature kill. That means unless you catch an early (like first turn) ritual ala your example suicide can control exactly when and if gibbons becomes a creature. No thanks. I don't need main deck hiddens that badly.

Now after sideing MAYBE since they probably bring in lots of instant speed critter-kill (4 spins, 4 contagion, edicts possibly) over sorcery speed discard. Amongst these, only spinning darkness is really bad as it kills a critter and gives them life. Interestingly enough, I had one suicide player bring in dystopia agaisnt me which I feel is an actively bad decision since its just a 3cc abyss that costs them life AND lets me sacrifice rancors instead of creatures.

Against Void however, Gibbons are less useful since they probably bring in way less instant speed stuff and more landkill like rancid earth (this along with contagion are two MORE arguments for ghazban>dogs but anyway). The match-up is worse if they play nantuko shades over specters and factorys over ports.

Incidentally null rod is pretty good against more knives like builds that run keg mishra's and scroll and masticore after sideing. I'm not entirely sure, however, that, masticore is a great sideboard call against me for suicide. Its never been real effective even though I'm wont to side out my md null rods.

As for dervish, I honestly don't know of anything better against mono-black in general, compost included (ok I don't know how good it would be against pox since pox blows and nobody plays it but I like the pox match-up anyway:)). Like I said its also good against alot of control decks if you can cast it early enough. Its slow obviously as it will deal only 3 damage over the first 2 turns...


By Pernicious Dude (Pern) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 09:07 am:

>>The only black cards you can send to the graveyard are creatures killed in combat or cards they sac to negator

Compost triggers on any black card hitting their graveyard.
Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn To Tourach, Diabolic Edict, Sinkhole, Demonic Tutor, etc. etc.
and of course any dead black creatures, except Zombie tokens.

OK, it doesn't trigger on Yawgmoth's Will.
If they get to a decent Will, you've lost anyway, same as everybody else.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 09:10 am:

That isn't my understanding...heres the ruling I was going by:

Color= Green Type= Enchantment Cost= 1G UD(U)/7(U)
Text (7th): Whenever a black card is put into an opponent's graveyard, you may draw a card.

Drawing a card is optional. If you forget, you cannot go back later even if it is something you usually do. [D'Angelo 1999/06/01]
Triggers on a black card being discarded, milled, or countered, as well as a black permanent going to the graveyard from play. [D'Angelo 1999/06/01]


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 09:32 am:

Well, quite obvioulsy (now) I'm wrong on this which does make compost much, much better. I thought that it would have to say "whenever a black spell is..." to let you draw a card like that.

Well, I'd always kind of shied away from compost but maybe its worth another look in light of this...


By Razor (Razor) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 02:54 pm:

I have been toying with the idea of adding 2 Rust and 2 Avoid Fate to my Stompy Sideboard.

However, I think that Null Rods are just plain better at stopping Kegs and Disks from wiping me out. Avoid Fate is great anti-Plow and anti-burn tech.

Anyone else have a similar compulsion?

Razor


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 03:57 pm:

Razor: Yeah, similar to the compulsion to jump from high places...one of those things you feel, but common sense tells you is stupid.

(Avoid Fate is great fun in casual, however. Noone ever expects it.)

On Mono-B: I usually find Dervishes and Compost to be sub-par. Mtenda Lions usually seem to be the best choice. Specral Bears aren't awful either (I maindeck them at times).


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 11:55 pm:

Actually I've always wanted to play Manipulate Fate in a tournament-quality contructed deck. However, Rust? Why not just use Bind? It affects more things for 1 colorless more? It's at least C-class janky.
-----------
Re: Land Grant's Thinning (Statistics vs. Common Sense)

Okay, bear with me. Any halfway decent player (let's use Keeper as the test deck) can feel the difference between a mana base with 4 strips and one with the full 5. Now ONE colorless source or blue source more or less out of 28 is a very small statistical difference (much smaller than the supposedly-negligible difference between 1o Forests/4 Grants and 14 lands), but please, try and tell Azhrei, myself, Milton, Nameless, Merdian, or any other solid control player that they can't feel a marked difference between 4 and 5 strips. Furthermore there are many instances of credible pros (tlaking about type II, block, etc.) that added a 61st card (usually a land) to stablize a mana base. This is ALSO a minute statistical difference.

However! Minute differences are what wins close games. How many times was the card you needed the next card down? How many times did the land you needed come on turn too late?

In a typical aggro deck like Stompy with no drawing, any library manipulation (that doens't cost mana and disrpt your flow of putting out guys), however slight, is a good thing. Depending 100% on topdecking is one of the major reasons aggro does worse than control classically. Anything that helps alleviate this is good.

Re: The Efficacy of Lyricsts

Not including 4 maindeck borders on moronic. Abyss and Moat are huge, huge threats. Furthermore they help out against Trix (if anyone still plays that...we have two people at NG that still play versions). Now, keep in mind this is a Keeper player talking. Lyrists are VERY annoying to play against.

No, they aren't an answer to abyss in the same way disenchant is. If I drop a fast Abyss and you don't Lyricst the next turn while I'm tapped, you probably will never desroy the Abyss. You may, but the chances decrease every turn the game drags one.

So Lyrist is really not there to destroy Abyss. she may, but her real purpose is to DELAY it. A contrl deck can only run so much spot removal before it starts losing to other control decks. Most spot removal, if drawn early, is used right away--no one save StP for a Lyrist while rogue Elephant is kicking their ass.

So Lyrist, chances are, will be played second or third turn (becaue you want stuff on the table that does damage first) and has a 2-3 turn life expectancy against a Keeper deck. Since I can't (usually) play an Abyss with Lyrist on the table I need to wait until I find an answer for her. That means you have 2-3 EXTRA turns before the Moat/Abyss/whatever comes out to hose you. This is invaluable disruption and hopefully gives the Stompy player enough extra turns to finish the job before Keeper takes control of the game.

And my Elvish Lyrists are Elvish not Druid beause I have foil Elvish--mainly for the Percy Shelley quote. Percy Shelley 0WNS J00.

--Matt


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 12:00 am:

P.S. The way I look at it Land Grant is only worse than a forest in two scenarios A) when it gets countered because they see it's your only mana (work out the math percentage of the chancesof a Keeper deck having Force and a blue card they are willing to pitch to stop a grant combined wit hte chance of you having a one grant no land hand. This doens't happen often.) B) under a Nethervoid--however if void is out stompy reasonably cannot expect to ever make it out of void lock even if it plays all lands. They would need 4 lands to cast anything and hope that while they take their time drawing 4 lands the void player doens't/cant kill a single forest. Unlikely as hell.


By The Singularity Eliminator (Sylvester) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 12:19 pm:

Matt:

Did you at least read my post about those probabilities??

FoW and Duress.

The chances of being mana-screwed because of FoW and duress outweigh the advantage offered by one more mana source. (note that you have ~50% chances of drawing 1 of 4 cards in your opening hand.)

As a control player would you FoW the LG they play T1?

What else would you counter? Rogue elephant, maybe?

When you play a duress, do you take that LG out or some random pump?

I think it's pretty clear you can't keep a 1 LG hand, and that if you do, you WILL be manascrewed more often. And, if you don't, you mulligan more.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 12:59 pm:

Matt: Keeper isn't the only deck that runs force of will obviously. And the problem isn't necessarily getting it countered but fear of getting it countered. Any time you have a 1-grant hand against control they will get to see your hand and know to counter it if they can. Now the control player may not have force, but if they do the stompy player is in for a big hurt probably. Hence, any skilled player would probably mulligan in that situation.

The other important point is that if you expect alot of control (and why wouldn't you, playing stompy?)you DO expect this scenario to pop up at some point in a tourney and be forced to mulligan at least once. Add to that the marginal thinning effect, the fact that you only run one card that it can be pitched to, and how many of your creatures are better when you have more forests in play (rogues, boa) and I don't see how land grant is better at all. Its true that stompy is wholesalely reliant on topdecks but: a)the deck is very homogenized b) with as few lands as you run land grant is unlikely to directly turn a draw into a business card instead of a forest/another grant. But sometimes drawing forest #2-3 is what you want anyway.

Against NetherVoid (and other decks that play duress like suicide and maybe enchantress or funker) it can also occasionally be a problem if you go second. But since most of those decks tend to side out duress anyway I don't count that as a valid argument against land grant. But to illustrate you must allow that if there was a lot of Trix (running both fow AND duress) that grant would likely be considered bad, right? Similarly mana leak can present the same problem btw if they have mox+island

Efficacy of Lyrists (I don't have foilys so I don't know what the quote says :()

Moat IS a huge threat. But who plays moat md anymore? Anyway, I think thats part of the problem with lyrist. Control knows what a pain in the ass they can be and tend to counter them sometimes even over aggro critters. Hence, casting them turn 2/3 is often just inviting a counter. I basically find that either I cast them turn 1, which I DON'T want to do, or they rarely resolve. Even then their best attribute is that they're a spot removla magnet. But the downside is I found they were always the first creature I wanted to feed to edict anyway and fire/ice became more annoying since there was the increased chance of getting 2-for-1'ed (even more so if you play the 1-toughness river boa or wild dogs)

The other problem I see is that Abyss doesn't bother me in Keeper nearly as much as ose in terms of taking over the game. Keeper will rarely "abyss-lock" me early. But since OSE will almost always go for its powder keg first, lyrist isn't likely to survive long enough to delay abyss there.

They're also mediocre against other enchantment heavy control decks like parfait and enchantress. And I truly don't think they qualify as an answer to oath either(regardless of whether its u/g "sapphire" oath, palys black brokeness or not, or is a keeper oath style build)

Plus the advantage over a better disruption spell, the fact that they beat, is often negligible against control since many said decks run mishra's, ophidians or even shamans all of which kill lyrist in combat barring a pump spell. In addition, if you're playing smartly to avoid over-extension lyrist is a liablity in that it dilutes your attack phase since you could ow have a 2 power creature in its place. Couple that with the fact that 1/1 quirion rangers are almost a must in the deck (and sometimes elite are 1/1s as well) and I feel lyrist is more detrimental to the decks aggressiveness than it can hope to make up for.

The other attendant point is that briar shield is SOOO good that I'm willing to cut a creature spot for it. Yes, it gives me a lot of pump, but as somebody said above, "balls to the wall" is in theme for this deck.

So I would rather devote a "disruption slot" to a card that while it doesn't beat is more effective against more decks (think of lyrist against counterphid for example). In control dominated environs I think that card is null rod. In most games even when it isn't stopping powder keg or masticore it will shut down moxen or zorb or other nuisance artifacts. Granted, after boarding in some games I replace the rods with tranquil domains but I think rod is a more versatile main deck card. The one drawback is that I find 4 is a must to give yourself the best chance to draw one early (3 otherwise seems like a better #, but they are useless in multiples. OF course people DO kill null rods on occasion:)

Wastelands are no longer my choice bc they are SO dead against too many decks for my taste (anything mono-color). Also they were most effective against keeper decks where they kept moat off the table for an addtl turn. But moat really isn't as popular any more and, honestly, I think I can find better Keeper hate if thats becomes a major problem.

Also note that this is the only reason card advatnage is significant at all in my mind. Other than artifact/enchantment removal there is rarely one card I need to find that will win me the game or otherwise cost me the game.


By Jacob Orlove (Orlove) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 01:47 pm:


Quote:

In addition, if you're playing smartly to avoid over-extension lyrist is a liablity in that it dilutes your attack phase since you could ow have a 2 power creature in its place.




Isn't stompy all about "over-extension" to win by turn 3-4? Not playing creatures because they might be killed doesn't seem to make sense in a deck like this, given

Quote:

as somebody said above, "balls to the wall" is in theme for this deck.



By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 02:17 pm:

Jacob: ALL my creatures dies to powder keg (well, except legate)

I'm not worried about spot removal, I'm worried about a mass sweep spell. Does having more than 3 creatures in play even speed up your gold fish?


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 03:11 pm:

"And the problem isn't necessarily getting it countered but fear of getting it countered."

What the hell does that mean? I'll spare you the time to reply. It means absolutely nothing.

"Any time you have a 1-grant hand against control they will get to see your hand and know to counter it if they can. Now the control player may not have force, but if they do the stompy player is in for a big hurt probably. Hence, any skilled player would probably mulligan in that situation."

If you mulligan a perfectly fine hand because the control player has seen your one-land hand you are a big wuss. This deck can not just manage, but thrive off of one land so I really, really don't know what you're talking about. Also, work out mathematically what are the chances one grant will be alone in your hand without another grant, forest, Quirion Ranger (effectively giving you 2 lands), or ESG (3 critters out after turn two is right on schedule).

Cutting creatures for pump makes no sense. I can get the same effect by playing antoher creatures which is never dead. Furthermore, this isn't combo, it's stompy. There is no way you can consistently goldfish turn 3. My deck and most other Stompys goldfish turn 4 nearly every time--so adding more pump to speed up the kill 1/2 a turn might sound good, but in real life there are no such things as 1/2 turns. You are not outracing combo that goes off on turn 3 and are making yourself more vulnerable to removal spells wby lessening the amount of critters in your deck. In short, you gain nothing.

Furthermore your arugments against lyricist are poor. Look if I have a removal spell or a counter I'm willing to use one of your guys is getting killed or countered. First of all, if you play a deck full of spells that I don't want to neutralize or counter it means your deck is a pile of ass. Secondly Stompy is a deck that presents a serious clock. 'Wasting' a counter or removal spell on a lyrist (assuming I don't have Abyss handy) means something much bigger and nastier is going to be smacking me. I think that is a good thing for the stompy deck. As a control player I have 4-5 turns to do something that will save my ass. Lyrist means that in those 4-5 turns I need to not only find a solution, but either an answer to that before the solution can be played (not an easy thing to pull off in 4-5 turns).

Lastly there are not one, but two fairly competant control players on this thread telling you one thing (namely this particular decks scares us and this is why), yet the bd stompy players are insistent that they know better about what hurts a control deck. I love it.


--Matt


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 03:38 pm:

OK:

I know control won't have force 1st turn every game, but I have to paly as tho they will lest my assault be neutered for like 3 turns bc I DON'T HAVE A SINGLE FOREST IN PLAY. For the record I don't give a shit if control sees my hand bc they could proabaly guess pretty accurately anyway (2-3 creatures, 2-3 pump, 1-2 land) But they see my hand BEFORE I grant so they know whether I have an assy 1-grant hand or not. If I do and they can counter it they will providedd they're smart.

And grant+ESG or grant+qranger is only good if grant doesn't get countered. Ranger will just sit in your hand looking stupid until you draw another land/grant. Even stompy can't run on one esg.

lyrist is not aggressive at all, and is crappy enchantment removal too boot. Basically your argument for it is that its a spot removal magnet. Big damn deal. Keeper plays, what, THREE spot removal cards? At best. F/I doesn't kill rogues, elites, or herds. Pump counteracts it. Playing lyrist just makes it better since it loves 1 toughness dudes. And edict doesn't even let you choose the target. So I'm gonna play lyrist since it might take a swords otehrwise meant for my rogue elephant? Not friggin likely.

Its not like the keeper match is race for me to win before abyss hits anyway. Stompy can win with abyss on the board (it must win soon but its possible)

BTW - a half turn increase in goldfishing translates into a turn increase in every other game which is not exactly nothing. Of course truth in advertising laws being what they are, I have to admit ~t3.5 is HARD to get without really teching the deck out (berserk, 4 md gibbons which are too erratic for my tastes, plus my full complement of 16 pump might give me turn 3.5) Presently I think I'm closer to 3.8 (1 in 5 games I might kill on turn 3 or a little more frequently since sometimes it goes to turn 5)


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 03:49 pm:

Fine, I put a hex on you. You shall play your bad deck which shall never get better and never, ever beat a good control player except by sheer luck. Oops, someone beat me too it.

--Matt


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 03:51 pm:

"Keeper plays, what, THREE spot removal cards?"

Goddamnit! Sooooooo Lyricist has an excellent chance of staying alive for a few turn and (repeat after me class) stalling Abyss out.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 03:54 pm:

Losing to control 4 L


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 03:55 pm:

Sooooooo the fuck what? Abyss in Keeper only beats me if its preceded by spot removal anyway.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:02 pm:

Ban Morphling!


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:02 pm:

No, restrict Mana Drain!


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:03 pm:

No restrict Balance!


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:04 pm:

Restrict spot removal!


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:06 pm:

Yeah, especially Feast or Famine. I can use it to terrorize a Rouge Elephant OR make a 2/2 zombie to block hordes of Lyrcists, Rangers, etc. BROKEN.

--Matt


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:07 pm:

Ban Misdirection-- Stompy fears Rancored Mox Monkey!


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:07 pm:

Lyricst I mean. Goddamn it, she PROBABLY writes the words herself too.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:09 pm:

I say restrict Rancor and Giant Growth. The reason Stompy doesn't win as much as it should is because it doesn't play enough restricted cards.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:09 pm:

Lyrist. You mean Lyrist.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:10 pm:

Lyrist...sheesh


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:12 pm:

Stompy should splash white for Balance, since it empties its hand and only had one land in play.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:12 pm:

And black for Perish in the mirror match?


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:13 pm:

No, Keg-- it's an artifact.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:15 pm:

Interacts poorly with my Null Rods...I can still Perish though!

Actually I could also run Oath of Druids against Keeper. They play a Shaman and BAM....ESG in play witout paying G2!

--Matt


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:16 pm:

And then you drop Lyrist and hit the Oath so they can't get Morphling!


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:18 pm:

You bitch! You stole that from Smnemen! That's totally ripped off from the Moat/Masticore/Seal combo!


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:20 pm:

Oh, even better! Master of the Hunt to get uncounterable creatures and dodge the Abyss!


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:22 pm:

Az, if we've already splashed white for balance we might as well use Caribou Range since the life gain will help out in the sligh matchup.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:24 pm:

Yeah, but then would could maindeck a Story Circle and an Opalescence so it wouldn't be dead versus Stacker 2.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:25 pm:

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT! We do NOT have an answer to banding creatures in this deck.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:25 pm:

And you guys wonder why ppl think ur dicks...


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:27 pm:

Okay, so we maindeck a Tolaria and use that to splash Tinker for the SBed Mishra's Helix.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:29 pm:

Better to be one than suck one in prision my grandmother always said.
--------------
And Crop Rotation to find the Tolaria! One more restricted card! Whoohoo, the deck will be unbeatble if this keeps up!


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:30 pm:

You let your aggro decks do the sucking for you


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:31 pm:

Okay, a LITTLE maturity here-- that was totally uncalled for.

Please, next time, try to write out the words "people" and "you're." It's just courtesy.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:32 pm:

No hablo netspeak.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:36 pm:

By the way, there's this new Mentadent toothbrush with a head that conforms to each individual tooth. I know this is off-topic, but seriously, if you guys havne't seen this thing...it is some BROKEN in terms of dental hygene. I've never before thought to myself, "Damnit, brushing your teeth is FUN," but now it is. It's like having a bunch of tiny little people inside your mouth, giving your teeth and gums a massage. Hold on...I need to brush my teeth again. Be right back.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:37 pm:

YOU'RE a dick!

better?

You, Azhrei, have demonstrated little to no maturity or composure every last time you've ever replied to my decks. In fact I think your first reply started out by explaining "why my deck is balls". Both constructive and witty at the same time.

And, listen, please stop telling me how goddam good you are.

The fact that we disagree doesn't mean you have to be an asshole about it...bc personally I'd rather go watch flies fuck than endure much more of this crap


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:39 pm:

I am all over that! For too long have I searched and wandered the globe in search of an oral hygiene device such as you describe, and now it seems as though I may be able to lay down my sword and return to focusing on my pearly whites. Oh, would that Diogenes had enjoyed such success!


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:39 pm:

Seriously, brushing your teeth with this thing is WAY better than watching flies copulate.


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:41 pm:

While terrorizing this thread may be fun for all, the point is that BD's Stompy lists are universally undergunned in every matchup. This is a tested fact. A bad variant of Matt's deck got into the T4 at NG lately. By bad I mean while it had 30 guys, it did dumb things like run 5 strips and Null Rods main.

The super-overloaded creature Stompy may well be the best aggro deck in the field. Period. There exist ridiculous hosers for the deck in Perish, Powder Keg, and Hibernation, but the fact remains that when you draw a creature at least every other turn, you're going to beat control like a drum. Other aggro, barring a Cursed Scroll from Sligh, will not win around that either. Stacker's capable of beating Stompy, sure, but it requires a good opening hand and a slow one from the Stompy deck. THAT'S IT.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:41 pm:

Don't flies just lay eggs anyway?


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:41 pm:

Goddamnit....my life has been ruined by this toothbrush. I no longer go out, nor am I able to hold a job. ALL I can do is brush my teeth all day long. The money ran out and now I'm giving blowjobs to pay for my next tube of toothpaste. Help!


By Dandan (Dandan) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:42 pm:

To anyone above who says that Ridgebacks are bad:

How long are you planning to use your creatures for anyway? Ridgebacks are the best turn 2 drops for Stompy unless you like Elephants.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:44 pm:

Hey, if the sperm count is high enough you might not NEED to buy toothpaste.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:47 pm:

Dandan: exactly. The only time you have a real problem with ridgebacks is when you NEED 2 more damage on turn 4 or when you get into creature stalls (how likley is that?)

Also no deck running strip mines is a variant on Matts deck, nor is it necessaily a dumb thing to runs strips or rods main

And just to clear up any misconceptions flys fornicate


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:47 pm:

Ugh...I just have absolutely no response to that.

--Matt

P.S. I think Ridgebacks are bad because you _goldfish_ in 4 turns, but a real game (against a resisting deck) takes a bit longer.

P.P.S. Funker might crush Stompy (never tested the matchup), but I don't think that deck is popular yet.


By jpmeyer, keeper of ur mom (Jpmeyer) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:50 pm:

ur mom fornicates


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:50 pm:

I think Funker beats Stompy game one, dunno about after Null Rods come in. I'll be sure to do some testing, since I have access to the original Funker. :P


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

No, I don't claim that deck was a varient of mine. I don't even know who it was that played it. There was someone playing my Stompy deck (with one change) _last_ tourney (I didn't attend this one) and I beat him soley on ridiculous draws (second turn morph and first turn keg/ancestral).


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:53 pm:

I would just like to say that this is the first time in nearly a year that BD has really reminded me of the way it was when everyone was having a ton of fun-- thanks guys, for this glimmer of what it meant to have FUN! :)


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:54 pm:

I am not kidding you about that toothbrush though. Simple pleasure in life, I'm telling you.

--Matt

P.S. JP, ur mom is a simple pleasure. Only because you would havesaid it if I didn't beat you to it first.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:55 pm:

JP's mom cooks a mean breakfast. Her pancakes are bah-ROKEN!


By jpmeyer, keeper of ur mom (Jpmeyer) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 05:12 pm:

Pre-tourney breakfast 4L


By Tracer Bullet, better than Spiff (Tracer) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 08:19 pm:

Wow.
No, seriously, I'm speaking for several members of the BD community when I say this....This really is just sad.
I see three possible reasons for the idiocy coming from our once revered T1 players:
1) They're doing this to prove a point. You guys have gotten tired of people acting like idiots, and hope that the best way to show them this is by acting like idiots.
2) They're doing this just for enjoyment (Most likely). As evidenced by Az's comment, they're spamming the mills simply because they're having fun doing it. Ironically, this isn't much better than what Legend and Nameless were originally banned for. Childishness on a fairly grand scale.
3) They've gone insane. After the whole Doomsday fiasco, I wouldn't put this above either Matt or Az. In recent weeks, I've seen the both of you become increasingly less tolerant, increasingly derroguotory in their remarks, and, unfortunately, increasingly wrong. I get the feeling it's been a while since they've played in anything but the incredibly inbred NG metagame, and, after so long of uncle fucking, they've finally lost all hope of sanity. (Not terribly likely, but still....)
Seriously guys. It might be cute, or funny, when you post like random retards once, or twice, or even four times for repetetive values, but I think this has gone a bit too far. A friend of mine actually e-mailed me about this saying he would have smacked the two of you if the T1 mill weren't locked down to users. Please, if you want to have a circle jerk, do it in a nice small room with no windows and ample towels.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 08:50 pm:

A lot of 1, a little 2, and a healthy dose of apathy mixed in, I'd say. ;) As for three... I'll leave that diagnosis up to someone with a degree.

A couple years ago, threads like this that would get out of hand and degenerate into silliness were pretty common, and no one minded. Everyone would chime in, and it contributed to the sense of community that the Mill USED to have. The increasing popularity of BD has been a blessing and a curse-- I wouldn't know Matt, JP, Nameless, KirdApe3, or Meridian otherwise and they have all been great friends to me, but as far as I'm concerned the sense of an overarching community is long gone. You can draw your own conclusions as to why.

Incidentally, you *DO* realize that I play about 600+ miles from Neutral Ground in a primarily aggro field, right? Good aggro, mind you, but aggro nonetheless.


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 09:24 pm:

Here's the thing. People keep arguing points that we have proven by exhaustive testing. We even offer to test out other ideas, find out that ours are superior, say so (and WHY), and then are flamed for reporting our testing. I can tell you exactly how the Stompy match ends up (on average, as no two matches are entirely superior) for almost every conceivable opposing deck. Trust me, Matt and Azhrei are right when they say their deck is superior. They finally started to get irate when nobody believed them.

As for the loss of community, that's the major thing that's contributing to the decline of the mill. Not the newbies who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, or the random flamers who think they're God, but that there's no sense of pride that we're the only ones that treat Type One as a viable tournament format anymore.


By Tracer Bullet, better than Spiff (Tracer) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 09:29 pm:

Well, I must admit, you didn't go too far overboard, but still, I guess some of us have gotten used to the clean, objective form of the mills. Don't get me wrong, you'll see me screwing around on BD, but more often than not, I'm doing it in the Rumor Mills. And yes, I do realize that you specifically play in an aggro heavy metagame (despite the last few tournies having rather odd metagames). And yes, I do realize that Funker, what I personally consider to be one of the 3 best decks in T1, is a spawn of your metagame.
What I also realize is that all too often people see that NG actually holds $250 tournements and automatically think that everything going on there is exactly what T1 as a whole is all about. I get a serious feeling that (and please, don't take this the wrong way) if our LA T1 crew were to make it out to NG, we'd clean house. Too many questionable things have come out of NG (CooberP, with all due respect, your newest versions of Enchantress suck nuts), and I think too many people see it's metagame and automatically think good. I've played Kaplan Sligh. I've played Matt's Keeper (admitidely, not nearly as good as I'd expect Matt to play it, but I definately don't think I'm horrible). I've played all different kinds of LegendSuck. I've played Suicide-B. I quite simply find that more than a few of these decks are overhyped. I think there have been some drastic changes in the recent T1 metagame that really haven't been reflected by NG, and as such, don't really get noticed. I really wish there were a way to find some time to play you, or Matt on apprentice, but alas, I still can't get IRC to work.
Simply put, I think I was lashing out at much more than just this thread, and I know I'm not the only person to be seeing what I see. Like I said, if you want to have a circle jerk, please, feel free, just keep it in the rumor mill (hell, do it in the anti-masturbation thread). If you're ever looking for some apprentice, either e-mail me, or look for me on AIM on TracerBullet1000. I'd really like to see just how self-rightous and off base I am.


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:32 am:

I miss the old days...

Anyway, if you think what came before was ironic, you ain't heard nothing.

I just played *keeper*, and got my ass handed to me by two kids playing *stompy* decks, and now that i think about it, I don' t think their respective ages added up to total mine. ::sigh::

Time for my rating to drop further below 1600...

I beat my brother though, figures, he had the better record at the time...

Oh, and if anybody was wondering, no, you cannot play a Keeper deck 4 times in practice after playing aggro for many years and expect to win anything.
Just in case there were any doubts.

Stupid friend who had to play slivers instead of the deck I built for him. ::grumble::

Oh, and one other thing...I think maybe some of you guys should do a bit more in real life playtesting. It helps a lot.


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:43 am:

Oh, damn, I just rembered why I left Magic the first time. Something to do with people being a little too serious sometimes.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 03:07 am:

Re: I've played Matt's Keeper

I guarantee you though, if you look over all the posts never once have I hyped one of my own decks. If someone thinks my list is ideal, what should I do, tell them, "No, it really sucks, don't play it."? My Keeper deck, which is the one I play most of the time, is not (by my estimation) ideal--just the closest to the ideal that my messed up metagame (NG demands a 10th counter), deckbuilding skills (I want an StP maindeck without going over 60 cards), and DCI B&R list will allow (sucky Vamp really needs to be Mystical #2). However, I have yet to see a Keeper deck on this mill that I would play over it.

If my Keeper deck is the BD standard it only is so because A) the Franchise is outdated and it's creator no longer plays Keeper B) most of the other good Keeper decks on this mill are either strange off-beat varients (i.e. JP's combo Keeper thing) or look "absolutely terrifying to play" (i.e. Milton's).

In fact out of all my decks the only one I believe is ideal is my Stompy list and I'm going to learn (in discussion or playtesting) of something that could be better. The reason I post decks on BD is because I'm often 95% happy with them and can't figure out how to make that last 5% sit just right. I counted on you people to help me with my decks.

I barely ever post decks here anymore because there is a tremendous influx of incompetant people. It's a lot easier for me to just email the people I think have a handle on a particular decktype or talk to them in IRC and ask them what they think.

Re: What I also realize is that all too often people see that NG actually holds $250 tournements and automatically think that everything going on there is exactly what T1 as a whole is all about.

Okay, this is 100% the fault of non-NG people on the mill and no one else. The only reason the NG metagame comes up is because JP, Kaplan, Legend and his girlfriend, CooberP, and I all play there. JP and I (along with Az who doens't play at NG--why do 1/2 the people on the mill think that?) were (note the past tense) the most prolific writers on the mill for two years.

As I have repeatedly said in the past, NG's normal, weekly type I tournaments are laughable. Basically there are 10-12 good players and/or decks and a bunch of scrubs that either play awful aggro decks or mindless Keeper hate decks. The problem is that almost all the good players are control players. Most of them are very good, but A) the decks are a bit slanted towards beating control due to the envirionment B) none of them do much creative deckbuilding anymore because they've basically decided, "Hey, Keeper is a good deck, I have a ton of fun playing it, I'm good with it--no need to ever build another deck."

Usually there are an elite crew of about 10-12 with very good skills and/or decks (unfortunately 8-10 of them play blue-based control) and a ton of scrubs. The scrubs never learn how to play better or build good decks so they either quit or build hate decks.

The larger, monthly tournaments are very good competition--except the last one was missing just about every good player because we all wound up having other things to attend to. More random people show up--many of them playing good aggro decks. So far we're still waiting for a non-NGer to win one of these tourneys. (So while I am emphasizing the wackness of our envirionment and that none of us have ever bragged about how our store is the end all of type I...we don't suck.)

Re: Too many questionable things have come out of NG

Okay, do you seriously think that CooberP's Enchantress and LegendWhatever define NG's decks? Legend and Negator shout very loud and if you aren't paying attention it may sound like more people are agreeing with them.

Kaplan's Sligh deck is _usually_ very good. The version he posted on BD awhile back (the only time he's ever posted his deck) with the Flamerifts over POPs and other questionable stuff WAS really awful. However, I play Keeper at NG--do you really think I'm going to tell him to put POP back in his deck? Don't take my silence as nodding in agreement. It was more me saying, "Hot diggity damn! I don't need to worry about Kaplan ever again!" Unfortunetly he correted his mistakes. If I were to play mono-red sligh my deck would be two cards different than Kaplan's deck. If someone has a better, markedly different idea for sligh that works better (and I'm honestly curious) let them post it or forever hold their criticism of other people's decks.

As for CooberP he wants to play Enchantress because he wanted to play something that was control, but rogue and non-blue based. Period. No one ever said (including Dan), "Behold Enchantress, pride of Neutral Ground deckbuilding! Look upon our works ye mighty and despair!"

Now, that I've dispelled the myth that NG is the type I center of the world I'll go in the opposite direction. Fine, people from NG have posted crappy decks here. NGers are also responsible for the creation of Neo-Academy, The Patriot, Stacker 2, and TheReaplacement Killers (by way of Richmond Virginia were it picked up some good additions) which are damn good decks as well as the resurrection of Nether Void (and seriously, my Void deck is not that great, I'm just patiently waiting until some smart person posts a better version so I can play THAT.

In addition, NGers are responsible for the BD-standard builds of established archetypes like Keeper, Suicide Black (I mean Fleshreaver.dec), and mono-U also come from there. Hopefully my Stompy deck will replace the current BD-standard build of 10 creatures, 30 lands, and 20 pump spells.

And yes, I mean Legend when I say mono-U. No, I don't think his deck was that great either, BUT when you look at what other people were doing with mono-U at the time (Zvi at the invite, Acolytec and Parrot here) he was lightyears ahead of them when the mono-U craze started and was directly responsible for the direction (good or bad) that BBS moved on this mill.

If people want less NG-influenced decks on this mill than for the gods' sakes refine/invent some and post them. I think between Richmond Comix (the Franchise, OSE, STP, Rubberfacre, Funker, etc.) and NG we have only six interesting decks that I can think of offthe top of my head on this mill. That wouldn't be so bad, but three of those decks (a Greener Keeper varient, Mask.dec, and 21) are from ONE PERSON. (the other three I can think of off the top of my head are Merdian's new version of Michael Bower's Forbiddian deck which is from ToC ONE, Milton's Fact or Phidian, and of course TurboNevyn).

Like I said before, I don't think any of my decks are optimal and I'm sure the others feel the same way and would like it an awful lot if some of you would provide some intelligent commentary as to how they should fine tune their deck. However, what happens is good players say nothing, bad players say too much, and than the elitist crap comes up again. From now on every time someone brings up the elitism of the old regs I'm going to bring up the obscene arrogance of the new regs.

Re: spam

Look, everything that could possibly be said about the issues (Grants, Lyricists, pump ratio, etc.) had already been done 1,000 times. That guy posts about Ridgebacks and we've already argued back and forth on that subject twice. Nothing constructive can possibly come from this except PERHAPS some good, heartfelt joking around to relieve tension and remind us that this is all just a game. And I am not kidding about that toohbrush. Brushing your teeth with that thing is better than sex. Az, you need two.

Re: (and please, don't take this the wrong way) if our LA T1 crew were to make it out to NG, we'd clean house.

No offense taken, but bring it, don't sing it.

--Matt


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 03:10 am:

Sheeeeet, now I remember. That's #7, Redman's B/W/U aggro deck. Wait, wait! He's sort of a NGer too!

--Matt


By Razor (Razor) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 04:09 am:

Does no one else find Scryb Sprites evasion ability invaluable enough to warrant maindecking?

Scryb Sprites:
Info: Color=Green Type=Creature - Faerie Cost=G ABUR45(C)/BR(F1)
Text(ABU/RV/4th/5th): 1/1, Flying.

As for Stompy creatures, I really like Mtenda Lions. Even versus blue decks I am happy to see them tap their blue mana, because it allows me to successfully cast more threats. Of course I side them out for Rushwood Legates or Hidden Gibbons.

Mtenda Lion:
Info: Color=Green Type=Creature - Lion Cost=G MI(C)
Text(MI+errata): 2/1. ; Whenever ~this~ attacks, the defending player may
pay {U}. If that player does, prevent all combat damage that would be
dealt by ~this~ this turn.

I have found Scarred Puma to be more unreliable than Goblin Cadets.

Do people prefer Giant Growth to Briar Shield? I have not tested Briar Shield yet.

Matt, I have not seen your decklist for Mono-Green Stompy. Please post it.

Razor


By Razor (Razor) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 04:57 am:

I recently discovered Skyshroud War Beast and am considering trying 2 or 3 copies in my next mono-green Stompy deck:

Skyshroud War Beast:
Info: Color=Green Type=Creature - Beast Cost=1G EX(R)
Text(EX+errata): */*, Trample. ; As ~this~ comes into play, choose an
opponent. ; ~this~'s power and toughness are each equal to the number of
nonbasic lands the chosen opponent controls.

We all know about Hidden Gibbons:

Hidden Gibbons:
Info: Color=Green Type=Enchantment Cost=G UL(R)
Text(UL+errata): When an opponent plays an instant spell, if ~this~ is an
enchantment, ~this~ becomes a 4/4 Ape creature.

But, what about these Hidden gems:

Hidden Ancients:
Info: Color=Green Type=Enchantment Cost=1G US(U)
Text(US+errata): When an opponent plays an enchantment spell, if ~this~ is
an enchantment, ~this~ becomes a 5/5 Treefolk creature.

Hidden Guerrillas:
Info: Color=Green Type=Enchantment Cost=G US(U)
Text(US+errata): When an opponent plays an artifact spell, if ~this~ is an
enchantment, ~this~ becomes a 5/3 Soldier creature with trample.

Hidden Herd:
Info: Color=Green Type=Enchantment Cost=G US(R)
Text(US+errata): When an opponent plays a nonbasic land, if ~this~ is an
enchantment, ~this~ becomes a 3/3 Beast creature.

Has anyone tried these? I have not savoured my experiences when I have faced Hidden Guerrillas. Even if they are casting a Powder Keg, this 5/3 attacker might finish them before they can use the Keg.

As for restricted Berserk, it is always a joy to throw onto a pumped creature; I wish I were allowed to play 2 or 3 copies again.

1 or 2 Bounty of the Hunt is a wonderful surprise pump spell especially when you're mana-screwed. It actually creates card advantage if they're blocking you - If they're not its over soon enough anyways isn't it?

Razor


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 05:32 am:

Well,

Hidden Ancients is kind of crappy. It becomes a creature when they play Abyss? No sense in that.

Hidden Herds are amazing and I've been playing them for years.

Hidden Guerilla I tried and didn't like them. It's often a lot easier to no play a mox than it is a land. Usually all that happens is he never gets animated until the turn they Balance. Feel free to test him out, I've heard of other people liking him, but I think he's too inconsistent. If he was a 4/4 he'd be okay against Sligh (unboltable scroll deterrent), but he isn't.

--Matt

P.S. My deck is the one posted by KirdApe and Az.


By Dandan (Dandan) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 06:50 am:

Matt: I posted that Ridgebacks are good, not to provoke discussion but to state that they are good. I totally agree that in longer games they suck but just about everything in Stompy sucks in a longer game. Live with it.
You plan on dropping more creatures than control or other aggro decks can handle (you lose to a good Academy and even to a bad Academy, like mine - live with it). You plan on killing your opponent quickly with fast efficient creatures backed up by pump. If your plan doesn't work you will lose. Tell me Ridgebacks don't fit the plan.
Tell me Ridgebacks don't usually do 4+ damage.

This is meant to be a thread about Stompy.

P.S. Sky. War Beast is really bad in the early game and you lose anything that goes beyond the early game. Herds and Gibbons are pretty good but also situational. using them depends on your metagame. Mtenda Lion is reasonable as a SB card.


By Justin (Justin) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 08:34 am:

blah blah they're being jerks blah. i personally appreciate the levity of this post. but if you criticize the absence of capital letters in my post, i will hunt you down like a bloodlusted ornithopter. sup.


By Justin (Justin) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 08:36 am:

oh, and those hidden enchantments should be rediculous in an enchantress deck. i got my ass handed to me last wednesday by a guy doing that


By Dandan (Dandan) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:27 am:

And if using that toothbrush is better than sex I have to ask which orifice are you inserting it into?


By Dandan (Dandan) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:39 am:

So
4x Skyshroud Ridgeback
4x Skyshroud Elite
4x Ghazban Ogre
4x Rogue Elephant
4x River Boa (Possibly Wild Dogs, Mtenda Lion or Hidden something)
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Druid Lyrist

4x Giant Growth
4x Rancor
2x Bounty of the Hunt
2x Briar Shield

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Land Grant
10x Forest
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus

Sideboard:
4x Rushwood Legate / Mtenda Lions
4x Hidden Gibbons
4x Null Rod
3x Hidden Herd

Briar Shield is such a bad card but it seems to work. Keg owns Stompy but Kegs have fallen in popularity since Legend Blue variants.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:45 am:

One more deck for your list Matt: Parfait. After that, yeah, I'm kinda out of ideas.

LOL @ Dandan

But Ridgebacks don't do 4+ damage, and don't fit the plan. :P


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 10:19 am:

"And if using that toothbrush is better than sex I have to ask which orifice are you inserting it into?"

I'll have to go with J.P. on this one and say: ur mom's.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 10:23 am:

They don't fit you plan bc your deck will only gold-fish anywhere close to turn 4 against dual-laden fully powered decks. Against a random field it'll avg what a turn 5 gold fish kill maybe? The whole point is thats too damn slow.

Maybe if you ran less marginal and mana intensive creatures (like boa) you could cut some mana sources for something better.

But to say that your version has been proven superior (specifically Kird Ape) seems suspect given you've reported NO actual testing results at all. Anyway, from now on I'm calling my deck Undergunned.dec :)

Maybe I'd be more apt to take your word for it if you guys had ever demonstrated that you could build a good aggro deck before...


By Erik (Erik) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 10:42 am:

Actually, with the increasing numbers of black decks i would rather play Spectral Bears than Ridgebacks. Sure they come out one turn later, but they work in real life whereas Ridgebacks are goldfish-only cards imo. Plus they work well with Quirion rangers.

Btw. i think that arguments like in this thread would best be avoided if people would just respect the fact that some players have a lot more experience than others. Everyone makes mistakes and bad card choices at times, but one sign of a good player is that he keeps an open mind and is not full of pride. Just like you don't walk into a Dojo and tell your sensei that a technique he's perfected for years is worse than your homemade beating-your-little-brother move, you don't come onto a competitive t1 forum trying to shoot down tried and tested deck archetypes with your sub-optimal "tech".

All it does is piss off the ones who are here to learn and understand, not to argue...


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 10:43 am:

First, you can't goldfish against someone with dual lands, because you can't goldfish versus an opponent. On that note, some of us only PLAY against dual heavy power decks, which is possibly why we don't use 25 pump spells. Lyrist is a lot better if several local players own the Abyss.

Second, I would like to chime in on "testing results." 1) I actually give people *more* credit when they don't say things like "55% vs this and 60% vs. that," simply because those numbers are always going to be total crap. Testing works in two ways: you can test individual cards to tune your deck, and you can get a general idea of how to play a given matchup and what sideboard cards you might need. The 'goodness' of a deck to me is obvious from looking at it-- for example, I can look at Suicide and say "This is a good deck that will lose to Sligh, so the SB needs cards that will prevent this-- and it needs one more Swamp." It's not based on some mathematical bullshit, it's based on knowing how to make a deck good *prior* to testing simply from having a feel for what a deck needs. Furthermore, if you test 10 matches, win 7, and report that you went 70% against a certain decktype, that in no way means that your results are any good. Your opponent might suck, for one, or you might be playing against a bad version. Testing lies for several reasons, and I never believe what someone says about their deck's record unless I can look at it and say to myself based SOLELY on my own knowledge of Magic, "Yeah, I can see that going 60% against deck X." I can't see a Stompy deck with 14 Forests and 20 pump spells doing well at NG or Comix, unless a 3-2 finish after going 0-2 counts.

Incidentally, Matt, JP, and I, as demonstrated above, are responsible for or directly influencing well over half the decks to come out of this mill-- aggro or otherwise. Sometimes we have junk ideas that we throw out for kicks, but we're still the ones making or helping the good aggro. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 10:55 am:

do you gold fish elites as 1/1s and herd/gibbons as enchantments?

you guys seem to think that if you shout it down long enough and loud enough that my deck won't continue to be scores better than your pile

good luck with that


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:20 am:

Something tells me that isn't a very pertinent question, seeing how a live opponent is a somewhat better measure of a deck than a goldfish record.

Razor:
I'm biased, but I think Scryb Sprites are awesome...it's just that usually the flying means very little, and they are only 1/1's. If I'm goint to be playing 1/1's, they better do something like win the game for me (Quirion and Lyrist come to mind). And beleive me, I have been looking to play the little guys in a competitve deck for a while.

Skyshroud War Beast is probably one of the best 3 mana creatures, but it is 3 mana, so it doesn't really fit in the kind of stompy being discussed (if you call it that). These decks have like a maximum of 4 *2*-mana plays, stuffing 3 cc stuff in just isn't really worth it (I cut Wheel from mine for this reason).


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:35 pm:

I, for one, give up shouting, since I have gone through the trouble to play both decks, dutifully reported my results, and STILL get yelled at. Please, play your deck in the next tournament you attend and post your results. I bet that you'll be sadly disappointed, whereas Stompy's (good Stompy, that is) starting to own people across the land.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:41 pm:

Goldfish? I play against PEOPLE. :P

I'm still amazed that you can have two of the best Keeper players on the board telling you what's better at killing them, and still people won't listen. ::sigh::


By Triple S (Sssmwc) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 03:02 pm:

Null Rods do not save Stompy from Funker. W/ 2 heretics main (the 3 on the but helps) and board sweepers (balance), funker has the skills to pay the bills vs Stompy. I'm looking forward to doing some IRL playtesting on the matchup soon. So if you want to get into a pissing contest about something atleast talk about funker, which is much more fun IMHO than stompy.


By Razor (Razor) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 04:23 pm:

Redman: "Skyshroud War Beast is probably one of the best 3 mana creatures, but it is 3 mana, so it doesn't really fit in the kind of stompy being discussed (if you call it that). These decks have like a maximum of 4 *2*-mana plays, stuffing 3 cc stuff in just isn't really worth it (I cut Wheel from mine for this reason)."

Redman, it is only a *2cc* critter not 3. I am considering using 2 or 3 main so that he comes out mid to late game so I can keep laying effective beats ie.not stall.


By Razor (Razor) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 04:28 pm:

Az & Matt,

Last year, I found that even suboptimal Stompy can rip apart even the best decks in my area. My biggest problem has been getting through Mishra's Factories.

Around here, people are playing Mongrel/Rootwalla Stompy which sucks imo.

I will try your version out which is 90% identical to mine anyways.

Oh, how come no Sylvan Learning Centre? 16 life for 4 cards seems fair to me.


By Dandan (Dandan) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 05:25 pm:

In fact my Stompy has 4 Taigas, 4 Kirds, 4 Bolts and a Wheel (experimental) in for 4 Forest, 4 River Boas, 1 Rogue (easier to mana screw yourself with 2 colours), 2 Lyrists, 1 Giant Growth. I'm also experimenting with Reckless Charge in place of 2 pumpers (currently -1 Briar Shield, -1 Bounty) which I acknowledge is pushing my luck as far as red spells goes.

Perhaps I should have been clearer regarding my statement that Ridgebacks do 4+ damage. Any Stompy plays a lot of 1cc creatures (OK some don't but they are painfully bad). Lets assume that Stompy will have a choice of a 1 drops. It won't drop a Ridgeback. Assume Ridgebacks come out to play on turns 2+. This means that they usually attack on turns 3-4. Turns 1-3 usually consist of dropping creatures. Creature pumping usually happens on turns 3-5. Ridgebacks attack when you would expect to use your pump spells. Blockers typically die in this situation. Keeper will almost certainly not use spot removal on a Ridgeback. Some people have suggested this only works in goldfishing. Actually a lot of games look a lot like goldfishing.
The BD 'elite' are suggesting Hidden Herd in this slot. This is a reasonable choice assuming you know you opponent is playing Keeper or OSE which you should beat anyway. Against your usual type I field (non-apprentice) you will meet mono and near mono decks. A turn 1 Hidden Herd is either golden vs Keeper or really sad vs monoanything. You could even manage to lose to Sligh if you give it chances like that.
So I am LOLed at for suggesting a guaranteed 2/3 creature which won't survive beyond the early game ahead of a enchantment that may or may not become a 3/3 creature depending on my opponents actions. Both are conditional. I merely choose the condition that suits my gameplan better (guaranteed high power to cc creature for early beats)
I can see why Keeper players rate Herd and Gibbons higher than some of us mere mortals. Any chance of you seeing why I choose Ridgebacks? (Stompy is a 'fading' deck anyway, it has a very limited lifespan but it is vicious like a wounded cornered wolverine that is being threatened with Matt's mentadent toothbrush)

P.S. Ridgeback gets LOLed at but Avoid Fate, Berserk, Warbeast, Rust are OK?


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 06:03 pm:

Razor: Oops. I saw War Beast, immediatly thought it was Phyrexian. Even typed to wrong thing. Doh!

Well, in that case, Skyshrouds are funny, but suck if ther are no nonbasics. Wouldn't Hidden Herds be better anyway?

Dandan: How is the wheel working for you? It's been in and out of mine for a while (I too run the red splash)

I'm also toying with 2 Rogues, though have alsways been wary of hurting a shaky mana base. Any comments on how they work?

My main case for Ridgebacks is that the suck slightly less against red burn than Ogres or Dogs. I just feel since you aready adding red for 4 Kird Apes, you should have even better creatures than a mono-g counterpart.

Also, in my experience, I haven't been able to reliably run more than 8, at most 9 red spells. If I read correctly, you have 11. How's that working for you?


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 06:05 pm:

Razor: How I understand it, Sylvan is bad in this sort of suicidal green becaue it isn't worth it to spena whole turn's mana on something that won't draw you cards till the next turn anyway.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 06:33 pm:

dandan: I totally agree on this point. OF COURSE ridgeback is assy, but herd/gibbons is really conditional and erratic in the main deck. They can proactively cost you the game. Rbacks normally beat for 4, they provide a body for pump, and in a pinch they make a good blocker (block 2/x's wo dying). This is even better with qranger in paly.

Vs ghazbans, they're better if you expect a fair amount of t1 aggro (i.e. not enough/good enough creatures to stall you) normally, but the more control you expect to see the better ghazbans become in comparison. Against almost all varieties of control I side out ridgebacks for rushwood legates.

The only quibble I have whith what you said is that if you don't start pumping on t3 instead of laying more creatures you nerf you ability to win on turn 4 alot. But ideally you'll have 3 creatures on turn 2 so its a moot point :)

Reckless Charge isn't as good for stompy as it might be for sligh since it requires you to commit at least two mana before you attack (one for the creature, one for the charge since its a sorcery) Playing it on a creature without summoning sickness doesn't make sense. Charge strikes me like it would just be a really watered down berserk for this deck but I don't splash red so...

It also can't be used to save creatures bc it imparts no toughness bonus and its a sorcery.

And of course the flashback is tougher to pay for this deck...:)

The situation with ridgeback is just like with vine dryad. The ONLY good reason to run land grants would be if you had more cards to pitch them to. But Matt, Az et al spurn the dryad entirely. Again, I'm not vds biggest booster, but its better than boa against aggro, evades keg better than boa (yes), and can occasionally attack on the first turn. Boa will almost never attack before turn 3. I grant that forestwalk isn't as useful as islandwalk but three toughness is WAY better than regen for one usually.

Also rust, avoid fate, and warbeast are bad ideas but berserk is at least a consideration.

Plus, alot of games DO look quite like a gold-fish except thos gibbons you were banking on being 4/4s aren't. Thats what I was getting at above for those seemingly too dense to grasp the concept.

About beating OSE: they have kegs so its a more difficult match-up them keeper. but on the plus side f/i shouldn't bother you at all (unless ur creature base is TOTAL ass and includes lyrists, boas, and wild dogs). They do have a better chance of "abyss-locking" you than keeper which almost never can. Mishras are also annoying since they stem the tide of damage even if you do trade with them 1-1 (usually requires a pump spell). Note that null rod prevents the 3/3 blocker trick


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 06:37 pm:

Re: Ridgeback and Rust

I don't think anyone was being serious about those cards (Rust, Avoid Fate, etc.), but Ridgebacks really are pieces of shit once you start playing against real decks and not the goldfish. Essentially they are a one mana, 4 damage burn spell _at best_ and not a creature. That might suit sligh, but a deck based around creatures and pump (that needs targets that stay put). This deck needs to have a steady flow of creatures, not slackers that do half the job and walk off. You have to think like a control player. He's essentially paying life to kill a creature on the board. Nice card advantage. Half the reason why stompy is good is that it takes advantage of control decks' lessened ammounts of spot removal. PLaying a ton of creatures that stick around until you deal with them is why this deck wins.

This deck, played poorly by someone who hadn't played magic since Revised, swarmed and beat Mikey P. in Tournament play while he had both Abyss AND Morphling out. You dont get situations like that when you run fading creatures. I love the arguements people use to support them. "But Sligh never wants to waste a burn spell on them and people hate to counter them or use a spot removal card on them, etc." GEE! Let's all play Bird Maidens and other chaff in sligh since no one will ever want to counter or kill them. Great idea!

Look, there are only so many questionable critters a deck can run because it starts to fall apart from badluck. If you notice, just about every creature in Stompy has some situation where
Boa is strictly better than a stupid ridgeback.
It's a problem for Sligh to deal with and allows you to dea the last few damage to a control player with Morph out. I've play tested this deck A LOT against very good control players and decks and Boa has won me a lot of games--in fsct the deck just wins a lot period.

Re: "I'm biased, but I think Scryb Sprites are awesome...it's just that usually the flying means very little, and they are only 1/1's."

OKAY, funny story time. Back in another life I played a R/W/U gun type deck in type I. One day during Urza's Saga-era type II I resurrectd the deck for one tourney. Now two minutes before the tournament I realized my deck was 59 cards. I spread it out and found that the missing card was an Elite. I was like, "Crap, I'm missing an Elite, does antone have a spare one?", but of course no one did. So I asked my friends "Does anyone have ANY 1cc Green creatures on them?" and the ony one we could find was a Beta Scryb Sprite in my friend's binder.

Round one some kid was playing Counterphoenix and the sprite wound up being the game winning--the one creature he couldn't kill due to it's flying. Round three I played Mikey P. and everyone was watching and I was thinking, "Damnit, hopefully that one silly sprite won't pop out of my deck and embarass me." And it didn't--until game three he cast Moat at very low life. I peeled Scryb Spirte like a champ, swung and GGed it. Win! The last round I wound up playing against a Stompy deck. Game two we wound up having a huge creature stall on the ground while a certain Scryb Sprite swung for 20 while we waited.

So conclusion? No, they're terrible, but maybe every deck should pack one janky Scryb Sprite to mise at opportune times.

Re: Sylvan

I thought it would be good in this deck too, but I was wrong. 2 mana sucks up all your mana for a turn. The loss of a turn's tempo (it could be, easily, an additional 2-6 more power's worth of critters on the board) just isn't worth 4 cards in a deck as aggro as Stompy needs to be.

Re: you guys seem to think that if you shout it down long enough and loud enough that my deck won't continue to be scores better than your pile

Score better than? I don't ever remember hearing you win much of anything. We're offering insight and results, and the best you can do is cover your ears and shout that your deck will always be better. You therefore fall into the category of chump.

--Matt


By MattB (Mattb) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:10 am:

At the risk of summoning righteous flames upon myself...have you guys considered Centaur Gardens for your Stompy Decks?

Centaur Gardens, Odyssey Uncommon Land

Tap: Add G to your mana pool. Centaur Garden deals 1 damage to you.

Threshhold - G, Tap, Sacrifice Centaur Garden: Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.

The arguments I could see not to use them would be if the game was over before 7 cards got to the grave, or for Ghazban Ogre's I suppose, but the base pain disadvantage is negligible, and land that turns itself into a pump spell seems fairly useful to me.


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:16 am:

"but on the plus side f/i shouldn't bother you at all (unless ur creature base is TOTAL ass and includes lyrists, boas, and wild dogs)."

If your deck DOESNT include Lyrists and Boas, then it is sub-optimal, period. Argue the point until the end of time if you want but it still wont make it so.


By Magimaster (Magimaster) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:29 am:

Centaur GArden's have several flaws in them, though not necesssarily all are severe :

- they're non-basics, so wastelands will eat them alive, and stompy's land base is a little small.

- You cannot sacrifice them to rogue elephants, so if your opening hand consists of nothing but centaur gardens or any other mana sources but a forest you can't play that first turn elephant, wich is a good one drop in some matchups.

- You can't land grant for them, though this seems to be one of the more minor flaws.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 06:33 am:

Add the fact that the don't comob with the Quirion Rangers. This (andthe ones you listed) are not minor flaws...they are HUGE problems.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 06:37 am:

Ack I can't type for shit after not sleeping. In any case, I don't think the Threshold lands make it in type I. Barbarian Rings are really nice, but they mess with your ability to Fireblast and all of them are wasteland targets in decks that shouldn't have any.


By Razor (Razor) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:03 am:

After all this wonderful gab about green weenie critters I feel like Stompin'!

R

8^)

PS. or it could be that at 7 am of no-sleep I am plain ol' tired and wired....


By Green Knight (Greenknight) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 10:09 am:

This thread has been very insightful (well most of it), I really appreciate both side of the arguments. I do not play Stompy, But I do have a version put together to test against though, so it's nice to see everyone's thoughts about certain card choices. What I really think should happen after all of this is that Az/Kirdape3/Matt D's Stompy should now be called "Oral Hygiene" :) What was the name of that toothbrush again, lol.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 10:41 am:

Well, in this case even a chump can tell you that boas are sucky. Regen
only matters when you have mana to pay for it (which isn't too often unless
you run too many mana sources). Besides it sucks against aggro anyway
unless ur on the defensive and the regen barely even matters against sligh
where you think it'd be good (they're crafty sumbitches--they'll wait till
you tap out of all things!). Or I mean ya think...maybe...i dunno...there's
a reason they run incinerate??? (other than masticore :)) Besides lots of
other removal totally ignores regen too(even bs like contagion does) Running
boa as a 2cc spot to help against keg and race control (which is a weak ass
non-starter of an argument) is like using the long putter in golf.
Embarrassing, emasculating and vastly overblown to boot. Drop the boas and
step up to the plate with your masculinity in tact godammit

The advantage rbacks enjoy over chaff like bird maidens or scryb sprites is
that they're a 2 power/1 mana (=good) critter that nobody wants to have to
kill with burn/counters. Rbacks are a GREAT target for pump; yes, even
rancor or briar shield. If ur only bitch against them is you'll have to
replay your rancor in 2 turns, stop acting like a pussy and play the
ridgebacks alreay! They're definitevly better than boas as are vine dryads

The real reason to hate is that they're bad against any deck that can block. Well, that pretty much rules suicide, sligh, control for the most part, combo, ummm...but they don't get into standoffs with 2 power stuff like ghazban, so thats a plus

P.S. I tried to post this originally last night so I hope its still relevant:)


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 10:48 am:

Also: Centaur Gardens -- when do you hope to have threshold anyway? I thought about this when odyssey came out but even once you get threshold it ties up 2 mana sources (one of which you don't get back) for a measly uncounterable giant growth effect.

Really, giant growth SHOULD be the worst pump spell in your deck. If its not, you should probably rethink your pump:)


By Tracer Bullet, better than Spiff (Tracer) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:46 pm:

Alright, since your e-mail is broken....
Matt, one of my T1 boys is going to be in the NY area the weekend of the 11th-14th, and wanted a chance to "Bring it". If possible, can you send me an e-mail with all the necessary info, so hopefully we can get a cross-country rivalry started....:P
Pat Pearce, Former Blurry Eyed Tournement Manager, Current Organizer of the SoCal T1 Crew, and all around Bad-ass.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 04:38 am:

Friday and Sunday at 4PM at 122 W26 Street on the 4th Floor at 4 o'clock. I only come to play on Sundays (work and stuff), but I sometimes come to hangout on Friday later (after the T) if I have nothing better to do.

--Matt

P.S. FBI, do you even play Magic? Seriously I'm beginning to wonder.


By Razor (Razor) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 06:34 am:

I look forward to the day I pump a Stompy creature in response to an opposing Morphling declaring a block. One in every threee times I see a Morphling I am able to make it chump block one of my threats. Running Stompy, my ratio should double so that two-thirds of opposing Morphlings become 'Chumpers'.

Gotta love Smurflings. They are my favourite Chump Blockers.

[Can you tell I don't play them?]

Razor


By Dandan (Dandan) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 03:45 pm:

I'm a little surprised about the lack of reading ability from Matt and one or two others. Most of the posts are not about Stompy decks for playing Keeper.
IF you are playing against Keeper:
Hidden Herds are wonderous beasties
River Boas will sometimes win by sneaking past Morphling and blind you to the fact that Islandwalk is nothing to brag about (swim past the hordes of blue blockers?) and regeneration is only useful against Sligh which you should win anyway.
Null Rods are good (actually they ARE good)
When Keeper wins is usually stabilises on a low life level and you could blame slacking part time Ridgebacks for the missing few points of damage.

Ridgebacks are not only better than Herds vs Sligh, they are better vs monoBlack which often has 2/2s (or 2/1 possible first strikers). They are better in the mirror (the aggressor wins in the mirror) and Masticore can't chew them up easily. Running Boas in Stompy is asking for Fire and Ice to ruin your day.

I pointed out that Sligh and Keeper don't fry them, not to say that they are good but to justify my claim that they usually deal 4+ points of damage. Since it seems that everyone here agrees that targetted removal generally avoids Ridgebacks it doesn't seem an unreasonable claim.

Redman: 11 Red spells is clearly too many but I'm reluctant to cut Kirds or Bolts and I'm trying out the charges (remember you can use them on creatures without summoning sickness, 3 damage is 3 damage). The Wheel is often the last card in my hand (not a good sign) but it is the best card for avoiding stalls and I win if it resolves. Having said that it will probably be cut. Stompy shouldn't be about card advantage but tempo. Charges help a lot vs Abyss (and incidently make Ridgebacks better)


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 06:36 am:

Re: I'm a little surprised

Have you read the entire thread? Every word of it? Apparently not.

Hers are excellent against Keeper, that's why they are SIDEBOARD. Hidden GIBBONS are maindeck. You're arguing about nothing because it's YOU that have a severe lack of reading ability. Gibbons and Boas are excellent against most type I decks. They are not anti-Keeper cards (in fact I would side Gibbons OUT against Keeper for Herds, although they are decent).

Boa is difficult to kill with burn (at worst they will need to waste two burn spells to kill it--unless they get lucky and they have an incinerate when you have no pump left) and is an excellent when you need a blocker against another aggro deck. Early Gibbons are absolute terrors for other stompy decks, sligh, mono-U, etc. They are at least good against any deck other than mono-black. Keeper can play around them sometimes, but they are still pretty anoying.

No shit Null Rods are good. What is your point? That's why I have three or four in my _sideboard_ at all times. However, without mono-U being as popular post FoF most people will see less maindeck kegs. The fact that they turn off moxen is simply not enough to make them good enough in the maindeck. They do stop scrolls, but as you said, you win against sligh anyways. Unless you plan on seeing a ton of OSE, Mono-U, and Academy I don't feel it is necessary to play Null Rod maindeck. They are absolutely crap against many decks and only annoy keeper slightly if not backed up by a significant landkill element (i.e. as in Suicide Black). Null Rod wants to be dropped early (figure turn two) and I'd prefer to drop two guys instead.

Re: Ridgebacks are not only better than Herds vs Sligh

Herds are a sideboard card, I repeat sideboard, iunless you play against a ton of Keeper or other dual ladden decks.

Re: they are better vs monoBlack which often has 2/2s (or 2/1 possible first strikers).

If you can't beat Sucide game one with Stompy, I think there is something seriously wrong with your deck. As far as 2/1 first strikers are concerned they PUMP and still kill Ridgeback. And if we aren't talking about Suicide, than we're either talking about Nether Void, Knives, or something else in which non of this applied.

Re: They are better in the mirror (the aggressor wins in the mirror)

NO. I'm sorry, but you're 100% wrong.

Re: Masticore can't chew them up easily

No, the control player just chews up the other creatures because the ridgeback is going to go away in a turn anyways.

Re: Running Boas in Stompy is asking for Fire and Ice to ruin your day.

Yes, Keeper will always have it's one Fire/Ice handy when you cast a Boa (mind you this is coming from the person that first advocated running Fire/Ice in Keeper). Not to mention you might be able to regenerate it or pump it and something else with one toughness that's being targeted with a Bounty. If you aren't talking about Keeper, you are either talking about the Patriot (which Stompy never loses to), or some atypical deck in your personal envirionment that runs tons of Fire/Ices--in which case don't blame me for not knowing what people play at your local card store.

--Matt


By Dandan (Dandan) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 05:03 pm:

Matt, calm down. This thread is a little long and it is easy to miss a few points. First I use KirdApe's deck as my reference point as the BS accepted wisdom Stompy. Azhrei called it optimal although he continued by saying he preferred Gibbons over Herds maindeck.

So when I compare Ridgebacks to Herds I am comparing my view of Stompy with that of a respected BD regular (at least respected enough that you don't ask if he plays magic!). So far I haven't seen your Stompy listed here so I hope you can forgive me for not referring to it.

I have tried to show why I prefer Ridgebacks to other card choices which I have repeatedly pointed out are superior in some situations.

Keeper may or may not have a Fire/Ice in its hand but keeper can usually find what it wants and having several x/1s is asking for trouble. Stompy is unlikely to have mana open for regeneration since killing Keeper requires speed. River Boas are fine although as I have already stated I use Kird Apes (Land Grants are dam good) and so don't worry about 2/1s for 2 (yes I know I'm more prone to Keg as a result).

Please enlighten me as to why I am 100% wrong about Ridgebacks being better in the mirror. I stated that Stompy on Stompy is usually won by the aggressor. With both decks running Ogres/Dogs this seems a reasonable statement.

Knights/Clerics and probably the Shades won't have much/any mana to pump/first strike with early, which is the only time that matters in Stompy vs Suicide. Ridgebacks beat up Shades/Clerics/Knights in this situation. How long does a Stompy vs Suicide game last anyway?

OK I'll admit that the Fire/Ice in my Keeper deck is there because of you Matt.

Azhrei is amazed that scrubs like me (OK he didn't actually say me) don't listen when experienced players like him and Matt tell aggro players what to play. We should just accept what we are told. If that were true there would be a bunch of players with Doomsday thanks to such helpful hints.


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 09:07 pm:

Thing is about Boas in the mirror, they block all game long. Mirror matches tend to be whoever can maintain the most creatures on the board at any one time, since both sides can throw down creatures effectively all game long. Therefore, Ridgeback's fading is an often decisive disadvantage in the mirror match... it just doesn't stick around to finish the job. Same against other aggro decks. Getting to two mana with Stompy isn't normally an issue for me, even with Elephants eating away at your mana base. So go with the Boas over the Ridgebacks for any and all aggro matchups... they simply have more staying power.

The Stompy list I posted is indeed Matt's list. I happen to agree on their views, since there's three means of beating control right now. Threat density, speed, disruption. Stompy's got two of them, so does Sligh, so does Suicide. And when a control player tells me what he's afraid of, I listen rather than get angry that he has to tell me something. I'd agree with your assessment fully if Ridgeback had Fading: 3 or a different drawback. But as it stands it's not ballsy enough to handle things.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 09:55 pm:

Okay look. Stompy decks come in slightly different versions. When two decks face off, no mater what they are, one has to be the beatdown and one has to be the control deck. In either case a creature stall is eminent at some point.

Now if one player has Ridgebacks out, those little guys wind up becoming mulligans. The aggro player will wind up getting a few points in before they die--further ensuring the control player's board position. The control player, if he plays ridgebacks will be even more screwed because the aggro player can just wait a few turns, let them dissolve, and then swarm.

Boa on the other hand is a royal pain in the ass.

Now about Fire/Ice. Even with tutors, it's still ONE card. Now, you play a Boa see what coud happen...

1. The control player has a Fire/Ice in hand and nails both. Sucks to be you. However this hardly guarantees losing the gsame with 32 critters in your deck.

2. The control player mysticals or vamps for Fire/Ice. That's a 2 for 2 trade. Cool.

3. The control player Demonic or Merchant Scrolls for Fire/Ice. That's still a 2 for 1 in their favor, but that is four mana in a turn. they should be tapped out if it's early game and you can drop a ton of guys. Also most people will tutor for ancestral with scroll as soon as they draw it so it won't be sitting in their hand ready to summon fire/ice. Although it isn't a bad play at times, using a Demonic tutor to find an IBC card leaves you with a nasty feeling.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 10:33 am:

Boas are way better than ridgeback in the mirror. But honestly thats about the only place they're patently better. And I haven't spent the last year playing stompy metagaming for the mirror so...Ridgebakcs WOULD be better in the mirror if you weren't virtually guaranteed to have one big creature standoff.

fire/ice: keeper, yes, but also potentially ose and funker (if you ever actually see anybody play that). But f/i is one example. Contagion, rancid earth, pyrokinesis, masticore, etc. f/i was just my example to typify how much better 2 toughness is than one. the more common example would probably be masticore :) Anyway, I don't think I said f/i was a very big fear for me, all I said was stupidly running 20+ 1 toughness guys actually makes it useful. Otherwise Keeper just sits there wondering why they play IBC jank over another stp:)

null rod: I tried it main, largely bc my brother was playing a counter-phid deck that seemed impossible to beat ow. But no they really do belong in the side. But remember not just bbs (or whatever) runs kegs. Theres also ose, void, and janky ass suicide decks (i.e. knives decks :)) Still not enough to bother running main deck rods.
I don't know if rods are enough for you to beat Academy or not. I haven't palyed it but once and it was essentially whoever gold-fished faster. Small wonder I lost.

Suicide: you win game one unless they hit you with an early sinkhole or hymn normally. creature stalls CAN happen here, especially if they run pump knights, shades, or warbeast. More commonly seen in void tho which I think is the tougher match-up since they can side in more land-kill. Qrangers do shine agaisnt it:)

Gibbons: any match-up they're "decent" against means this: if you get them out turn 1 or maybe 2 you're glad you play them. Otherwise they are bounty/dryad-bait. They are stongest against mono-U and sligh obviously. They are "decent" agaisnt keeper which means they 95% SUCK.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 05:27 am:

Boas are way better than ridgeback in the mirror. But honestly thats about the only place they're patently better.

Let's see. The mirror, anything with an island (I've won a lot of games swinging for the final few points through a Morph), anything with burn, anything that packs creatures of it's own...

So exactly what are you talking about?

>>>They are stongest against mono-U and sligh obviously. They are "decent" agaisnt keeper which means they 95% SUCK.

Again, WHAT are you talking about? They are excellent against mono-U and Sligh (two popular decks in almost any envirionment). They are great in the mirror. If your opponent pumps he has to deal with a 4/4 next turn. They are decent against Keeper--decent, the last time I checked the meaning of the word meant good 40-60% of the time. Bascially they are good enough (meaning good 40-60% of the time at least) against every deck in type I except mono-black.

This is why I ask rude questions like, "Do you people even play magic?"

As far as Fire/Ice goes, as a Keeper player, will Stompy doens't often have multiple x/1 critter in play--the most they can realisticaly run is 12 (f they use Dogs) I think--not counting Boa that regenerates. Now compare the chances of them having two or more x/1 guys in pay with you having the lone Fire/Ice deck or a Merchant Scroll/D.T. (because Mystical or Vamp is still a 2 for 2 play) and 4 manathat turn and nothing better to do with it than grab, as you put it, IBC jank. I mean really, if I have a D.T. I'll want to grab something other than Fire/Ice usually. Now that you have that number you also need to further reduce it by the chance of them having a Bounty to pitch and save their guys. Everytime I play Fire/Ice against Stompy to kill tw oguys I cover my eyes and pray they don't have a Bounty.

Masticore is almost a joke until mid/early late game. They need Core out with 6 free mana each turn for him to be any good at all. At least this was my experience that I found in playtesting loads of games against Keeper with Core.

Btw, this is an excerpt from an email I recieved yesterday. Kind of funny...

"I was playtesting an Extended Oath deck and the only other deck I had handy was 10 Land. My gf (who is still picking up the game) was boggled by Land Grant. She asks "So, I just get to
look through my library and get a Forest? Now I'm not as likely to draw one!" Newbies who have been playing for around 2 months understand why
Land Grant's good."


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 11:22 am:

Well hey... with two months experience she SHOULD know that. I mean, otherwise you'd have to have next to no understanding of how to play Mag... heh heh, oops. :P


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 12:02 pm:

I really dont want to jump into the whole arguement again but saying Gibbons suck is just total ignorance.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 12:21 pm:

I only meant gibbons suck against keeper. They own early agaisnt mono-u (so does legate making boa less relevant) and sligh. They are only ok in the mirror bc stompy runs at most 8 instants.

Gibbons are very strong against some decks, but I've tried main decking them and didn't like them. Certainly in a different field (50% burn or something) they would qualify but not, imho, for a general metagame.

In my estimation, boas are a fringe md/sb card that really isn't as good as legate against the decks where both will shine. And against aggro, I don't find it better than vine dryad.

Also, another problem with grants that isn't discussed much: its harder to get to 3+ mana using them over forests. And often times, especially with 4 elephants and 4 boas, you really NEED to get 3 or more mana in my experience.

Drawing 4 addtl business cards instead of mana over 600 turns (100 avg 6 turn games by someones calculation) is barely advantageous at all.

ANyway, why we're still hung up on f/i i have no idea. 2 toughness>1 end of story.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 12:28 pm:

Oh, my latest build:

4 Ghazban Ogre
1 Hidden Herd (marginal)
1 Hidden Gibbons
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Rogue Elephant
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Skyshroud Ridgeback
4 Vine Dryad

4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Briar Shield
4 Giant Growth
4 Rancor

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
14 Forest (Soon I'll have a lotus :))

4 Null Rod
3 Hidden Gibbons
4 Tranquil Domain
4 Whirling Dervish (I also play Mtenda Lions in this spot alot)


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 01:57 pm:

2 or 3 toughness may be greater than one, but not when its attached to chaff like Ridgebacks and Vine Dryad. Your build would actually be pretty good... if you stopped playing bad cards.


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 02:05 pm:


Quote:

2 toughness>1 end of story.




Hell, by this logic Scaled Wurm belongs in every stompy deck.


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 02:33 pm:


Quote:

Hell, by this logic Scaled Wurm belongs in every stompy deck.




Shhh! You can't let them know about my secret tech!

Fbi: If you are going to play a creature in a stompy deck, play 4 or none (or 3 if you are me)


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 02:37 pm:

Redman: yeah, I know. But I don't want a whole slot devoted to hiddens. The lone gibbons is there bc otherwise I would have a 16 card SB :)

The herd is the weakest choice, but I didn't know what else to use the slot for.


By Dozer (Dozer) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 04:37 pm:

Okay, I read this whole thread. And I am not a Stompy player, so I was but observing. But still, there is one thing I don't really get: Fbi, why do you play Vine Dryads over River Boas here? Maybe I just missed it somewhere above, but could you be so kind as to clarify that for me?

(A side note: Considering the deck as Sui-B player, the pump scares me. Considering it as Keeper player, that much pump looks funny.)

----
This whole thread made me yearn for a Stompy deck. But since I don't have the cards for it, I'll stick to Sui-B as my aggro deck and get creamed by Stompy (unless I go second and play Swamp, Ritual, Duress, Sinkhole).
But, for a nice little laugh, I'd like to see two Stompy decks facing each other with a Jinxed Idol in play.

Dozer


By The Singularity Eliminator (Sylvester) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 04:52 pm:

Matt:Then why don't people run LG in Oath and green keeper?


By Dozer (Dozer) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 05:03 pm:

Because it's rarely going to happen that any green or Oath Keeper deck runs on 18 mana sources and can use LG's ACC. And LG hard-cast is worse than Impulse in Keeper. Just my humble opinion.

Dozer


By The Singularity Eliminator (Sylvester) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 05:10 pm:

erh...that and showing your hand..

Ok, ok...

Bad question ^_^


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 05:32 pm:

Dozer: I prefer vds to boas for a number of minor reasons that add up to a pretty substantial argument. But I should add the caveat up front, that I'd really prefer something better but just haven't found anything that fits the bill yet.

1) boa costs 2 mana, whereas dryad costs none. Note I'm not saying vd is *free* bc clearly its not

2) an insta-blocking dryad kills 2/1s and lives. On the same topic, boa dies to anything other than a kobold in combat unless you regen/pump him. The insta-blocking is always a nice suprise to spring on an unsuspecting opponent should they try to race you.

3)if you go second dryad can attack first turn, possibly with a pump spell such as rancor or briar shield. This is a major advantage in tempo that boa totally can not provide.

4) regeneration is really negligible I find. Even sligh, through heads up play, can normally pick it off with one burn spell.

5) briar shield is really good on vd. Its also good on boa of course, but it pushes dryad out of bolt range.

6) and normally after turn 2 or so, I will have other creatures in play anyway so vd becomes a reasonable choice to pitch to bounty of the hunt since it only has one power.

7) OK I'm not saying forestwalk is that great but islandwalk is being overrated here. If you're having trouble racing control its not bc you don't play river boa. However, forestwalk is at least conceivably useful against oath decks.

8) boa evades keg thanks to its 2cc and regen ability from keg at 2. This is the biggest arguiment for it imho. Dryad provides the same evasion at 4cc.

9) Dryad rules in the mirror.

10) Legate, which I side in, is typically better against control than boa anyway. Note that legate gets better if you're going second...

So for these, and possibly other reasons I've neglected to mention, I'm playing vine dryad over river boa. But no, I'm definitely not married to it.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 07:54 pm:

>>>Shhh! You can't let them know about my secret tech!

Redman actually manages to draw enough land in Stompy to really play Scaled Wurm. So he might be serious...

--Matt


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 12:35 am:

The problem with Vine Dryad is you are throwing away two cards for one damage a turn. Saying that he's good in the mirror or for blocking is a moot point since nobody worth listening to ever blocks with something other than Morphling, Masticore, Mox Monkey, or Mishra's Factory and there is no mirror matchup ever. What the hell. River Boa beats for more damage than Dryad, for Christ's sake.

However, getting back to Thallid's ORIGINAL QUESTION, like 2 weeks ago, yes, you can play Stompy in Type One and be competitive. There is some fundamental disagreements on how it should be done at present (consistency over speed and the right creature mix among these), but if your field is heavy Keeper or other control decks this is a valid choice.


By Dandan (Dandan) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

Vine Dryad makes Ridgebacks look good.......


By Tracer Bullet, better than Spiff (Tracer) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:58 am:

FBI, I normally don't get involved in Stompy threads, but I feel obliged to say Dryad sucks nuts in T1. It's used in Extended because of the frequency of forests, and in 1.x all that's usually needed is to push through the last points of damage with a forestwalker. This is non-existant in T1, and tempo advantage or not, it's not worth pitching a green card to gain, simply because there isn't much room for a 1 power attacker. You're trying to race all opponents here. Any opponent (not playing Combo) who tries to outrace you simply put will lose. Speed is of the utmost importance. This is where Dryad simply doesn't make the cut.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 12:48 pm:

No, question they're a weak choice, but I guess the point that needs to be made is so is boa


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 01:17 pm:

Yes, River Boas are weak, because who plays Islands in a deck with very little spot removal?


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 01:19 pm:

*slowly begins to raise his hand while supressing a giggle*


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 02:45 pm:

Wait, FBI why are you saying it's a weak choice, yet using 4 in your decklist? I also like the fact that with each revision it winds up looking slightly more like my list.


By Dozer (Dozer) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 03:40 pm:

Matt, it's okay to include a weak choice *if* you really can't find a better choice. In this case, though, I think I'd also play Boas over Dryad for the simple reason Tracer already mentioned: The extra point of power. Thanks, Fbi, that you explained your reasoning, and I see some valid points, but I am convinced River Boa also provides these points plus one extra power.

Dozer


By The Singularity Eliminator (Sylvester) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 06:17 pm:

**Note on VD: I tihnk i could see myself palying that in some weird 80% non-sligh/sui-b aggro metagame. AKA, many IRL places.

Like, i think CTM tourneys look a bit like that.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 06:17 pm:

Dozer: vd vs boa is an open debate in mind, just not in my deck bc I don't like boas. Both are fringers but in this deck taht doesn't automatically exclude them from seeing play.

As for my deck looking like Matt Ds:
-I don't paly land grants
-I play rbacks and vd which he hate
-I play neither boas or lyrist which he professes to love
-I play 16 pump, which I feel is critical to the decks success
-the only revision I've made recently was to cut null rods (which I wouldn't play in a gemeral metagame anyway) and add vds.

So in a sense my deck looks more like his in terms of the creature count, but thats really incidental more than anything. Having 28 creatures vs my 24-26 isn't THAT huge anyway. If I were to add disruption again (wastelands or what not) I would ahve no qualms about cutting that critter slot again.

We do seem to agree on sideboard choices for the most part tho :)


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 10:17 pm:

"-I don't paly land grants
-I play rbacks and vd which he hate
-I play neither boas or lyrist which he professes to love
-I play 16 pump, which I feel is critical to the decks success
-the only revision I've made recently was to cut null rods (which I wouldn't play in a gemeral
metagame anyway) and add vds."

What I love is that you say all these statements as if they are good things. Excuse me why I make a seperate post flaunting how I cut Powder Kegs from mono-U for Prohibits.


By Jacob Orlove (Orlove) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 12:04 am:

Too late, Matt. Smmenen beat you to it. :)


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 02:49 pm:

Okay... I'm intentionally not taking any side of the fence here, but...

WHO THE HELL DOESN'T PLAY LYRIST IN STOMPY?!?!?!

Is this another Smmenen joke I'm missing?


By Jacob Orlove (Orlove) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 02:51 pm:

No, the powder keg/prohibit was a smmenen joke.
The no lyrists/boas/grants is real.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 03:01 pm:

I don't play lyrist and its definitely not a joke.
So Smennen was joking about prohibits and no kegs? He came across as quite serious.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 03:24 pm:

Okay, you all got me.

Will the real Smmenen please stand up?

::shakes head in complete confusion::


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 03:56 pm:

I don't get it...


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 04:02 pm:

Matt was calling FBI a tool in the same manner as both he and Azhrei harassed Smmenen, and for the same reasons... horrible card selection.


By Tracer Bullet, better than Spiff (Tracer) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 04:10 pm:

Smmenen, a former regular (has he officially left us?) who was notorious for coming up with some of the more, erm, *questionable* choices in his decks. One of his, erm, *questionable* choices was replacing Powder Keg with Prohibit in Mono-U.

You should play Lyrist. Honestly. I've played stompy a good deal in both 1.x and T1, and I can tell you there's no way you win without enchantment destruction. No friggen way. As such, you're left with two viable options: Lyrist, and Emerald Charm. Let's make a quick comparison
Lyrist
-Can swing for 1 a turn
-Can be pumped
-Is useable when no viable disenchant targets can be found
-Is useable in multiples

Charm
-Is an instant, increasing the likelyhood you won't lose a creature to The Abyss
-Is 1 mana ONLY when needed
-Can't be Swords'd, Fire/Iced, or any other creature kill before the enchantment hits

In reality, the ability to make your deck faster (ala 1 extra point per turn) totally outweighs all the advantages that Charm has. Stompy is a 20-0 deck, hoping to achieve that goal by turn 4. None of that will happen if and when you don't have creatures to swing with.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 04:10 pm:

Its that kind of one-sided bullshit that typifies why BD sucks

Note that I've never made derisive comments regarding matts (half-assed :)) card selections in this thread. I've only stated my opinions on them and why I don't play them. Nor am I defending my card selections as being good. This is stompy for godsakes! Some of the cards in it will blow pretty hard. Live with it.

If anybody, its Matt and Az that are tools. But then, I don't expect much from English majors (or wannabes). But what I do expect, esoteric and semantical crap often fallaciously presented as factual argument, I've gotten in spades. BOO-YAH


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 04:22 pm:

Tracer: WIth like no one this side of enchantress (read cooberp) playing moat (not even parfait) explain to me what enchantment needs to be killed so badly GAME ONE that its worth packing lyrists and thereby diluting your beat down.

Please don't say Abyss, especially not in Keeper. In OSE maybe, but there its powder kegs that really kill you. And Oath? You still scoop to spike weaver.

Nether Void? Once again, I think the real threat is powder keg.

WHAT other enchanments are we talking are we talking about? Now, my experience in the match-up isn't extensive but: Lyrist doesn't seem good against enchantress anyway since enchantments in the grave are only a detterence (replensih) besides which sterling grove stops lyrist.

Thats why I play tranquil domain over charm or lyrist in the board btw. Because in the two or so match-ups where enchantment removal is really necessary (parfait, enchantress), mass removal is muxh better. Against oath, I do side in domains as well, but its definitely one of my tougher matches


By Tracer Bullet, better than Spiff (Tracer) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 04:30 pm:

"Note that I've never made derisive comments regarding matts (half-assed :)) card selections in this thread."
Ok, I might want to mention that may be due to your inability to find such card selections. Matt is right (believe me, it's not terribly often you'll find me openly admitting this).

"But what I do expect, esoteric and semantical crap often fallaciously presented as factual argument, I've gotten in spades."
Fine. Refute my arguements, and tell me why they're bad.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 06:55 pm:

Tracer that wasn't directed at you...:(
Unless you're an english major in which case I should point out so am I :)

Only those who summarily say "your deck is bad" and imply that their statement makes it so.

sorry for the confusion, but can someone logically explain why lyrists MUST be main w/o saying "not playing lyrists to stop abyss is just nuts" (see Matts quote above?


By Eric Petracca (Eric) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 07:18 pm:

"...can someone logically explain why lyrists MUST be main..." FBI

There comes a time (hopefully after playtesting) where a Stompy player asks: Do I want a way to deal with an enchantment - any enchantment - in game one and still be able to swing with that slot?

If the answer is yes, you maindeck Lyrist.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 10:05 pm:

"If anybody, its Matt and Az that are tools. But then, I don't expect much from English majors (or wannabes). But what I do expect, esoteric and semantical crap often fallaciously presented as factual argument, I've gotten in spades. BOO-YAH "

Well, logic and reason wasn't working so....


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 10:31 pm:

How is "The Abyss is bad. Lyrist kill or stall The Abyss. Lyrist is good." esoteric to anyone who hasn't adhered to a strict daily diet of lead paint chips for the last ten years?


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, April 09, 2002 - 11:29 pm:

Mommy mommy, the wall tastes sweet!


By Spin13 (Spin13) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 12:50 am:

I like to eat bugs.

Almost on topic: JP builds REALLY bad stompy decks, too. You're not alone, FBI.

-Eric


By Dozer (Dozer) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 06:30 am:


Quote:

Please don't say Abyss, especially not in Keeper.


Coming from the other side of the argument (i.e. Keeper), I can tell you that I have beaten Stompy decks with the help of Abyss where I had my ass handed to me without Abyss. And giving up a chance to win game 1 is not a good idea for an aggro deck.

Dozer


By Will, the Walking Dude (Walking) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 02:04 pm:

haveing played stompy against keeper, abyss is bad news. Abyss following a balance (if they have moxes to play it) is game. Abyss with edict, or a unreponded to fire/ice or plow is often game. And there are random enchantments out there.


By BD Stompist (Fbi) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 02:10 pm:

OK, abyss following balance yes BUT how often will they be in position to cast an abyss after they've balanced? I think my board position>theirs following balance.

Abyss after one spot removal spell, especially limited ones like edict and fire, doesn't elicit concession from me very often.


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 02:23 pm:

Maybe think of it this way. You are replacing Lyrist with what? Vine Dryad? Both have 1 toughness, except one costs you another card and has an ability you'll almost never need (My Gaea's Liege tech nonwithstanding), while the other costs you one mana, also beats for one and does somethign that can save your rear in the right situation.

I'll admit that at one point I made that switch, Lyrists for dryads, but that was ONLY becasuse I was intentionally hating old Mono-U (Legates main as well) and resilience to Powder Keg combined with lack of enchantments there was what brought that about.

However, currently, I can see no reason to not run Lyrists, even if only (though there are other reasons) for the simple fact that there is really nothing better to occupy that slot MD in a general metagame.


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