Help a friend's semi-powered 4C Keeper for tourney tomorrow

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Help a friend's semi-powered 4C Keeper for tourney tomorrow

By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 04:49 pm:

My friend needs some help with his Keeperish deck. He doesn't want to run red, as he sees very little control (except for the occasional Extended control deck + Sol Ring concoction)

Metagame is mostly White Weenie, Sligh, Survival, Red Tubbies-ish, Living Death, and black disruption/discard, alonf with al kinds of strange things that vary wildly (lots of Type 2 and extended decks ported to T1)

Blue (18)
4 Force of Will
1 Mana Drain
4 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
1 FoF
1 Stroke
2 Morph
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Black (6)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 The Abyss
1 Diabolic Edict

White (4)
1 Balance
1 Chicken (ie 3rd Ed. Disenchant)
1 StP
1 CoP:Red

Green (2)
1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library

Gold (1)
1 Pernicious Deed

Artifact (2)
1 Zuran Orb
1 Masticore

Mana (28)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Library of Alexandria
4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

SB: (tentative)
1 CoP: Red
1 CoP: Black
1 Compost
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Powder Keg
3 Oath of Druids2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Spike Weaver
1 Spike Feeder

It's a bir rough, and I'm not really the one to ask on control decks, so I figured I'd offer it to all of you. Keep in mind we do not have Emerald, Jet, Ruby, 3 mana drains. Geyser was omitted becaseu we felt with only 1 mana drain and 2 moxen it wasn't as good, though Stroke remains. Pernicious deed seems like a good board sweeper, especially the random decks that crop up.

SB is really questionable, there were thoughts of making is a Oath transform, of course maybe the isn't worth it?

Red is a possiblity, maybe you could advise somewhat.

And, as always, any constructive comments are appreciated and welcomed.

By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 04:58 pm:

Check that, 27 mana sources.

By Begbie (Begbie) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 05:25 pm:

So, moving from a standard 28 mana source Matt D keeper, you make the following changes:

-1 Geyser
-1 Shaman
-1 Mana Source
-1 Fire/Ice
-3 Moxen

+1 Masticore
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 COP Red
+1 Swords
+2 Mishra's
+1 Dual (Tropical in this case, since you need 4 Tundra and aren't running Wisdom)

I'll consider the Swords - Fire/Ice swap a metagame-dependent swap, so I won't waste time on it. I'd like to know whether the mana is a function of the lack of red, or if you started by adding Tropicals and then added green cards.

-3 Moxen, +2 Misrha, + 1 Tropical

This looks good to me. Lots of NG keepers run two Misrha's. Nothing to complain about here (unless you want to go red; in this case, Tropical stinks =) ).

-1 Geyser, Shaman, Mana Source, + 1 Masticore, Deed, and COP Red

This I don't like. You lost 3 Moxen worth of speed, and you've cut one mana source. You then added a 4cc spell that ties up extra cards and takes mana to activate (you have one less card drawer). You also added a 3cc and a 2cc mana-intensive solutions.

I'd rather see you add back 1 mana source at the expense of the Pernicious Deed (I don't like Deed); a basic Island + BEB helps you avoid a Blood Moon lock. I don't like Deed unless you have some way around the bad effect; nobody played Disk unless they had a way to work around it (regenerators or phasers) or it did something good for their deck (such as get rid of a Necro). Even Random Miser gets this point.

I'd also rather see maindeck Powder Keg over Masticore if you want more anti-critter stuff. Keg has several advantages over Masticore in your deck:

- Since you have Swords and Edict, you don't need to worry about the time delay of Powder Keg.

- Keg costs less than Masticore (2cc vs 4cc), which is important for you because you won't have Drain mana coming your way turn 2-3. This is important vs. Stompy, Sligh, etc.

- Keg doesn't force a discard, so you can play it and let it sit on 5 against other control (so you can sweep away their cockatrice when they play it).

- With Keg won't sweep away the Jet, Emerald, and Ruby you don't have.

COP is ok. You have the mana base. With COP, Keg, Swords, Edict, Zorb, you should beat Sligh game 1.

Just a quick question about the SB: why do people play less than 4 each of COP Black AND Compost? I would think that one is clearly better vs. your metagame if you really think about it.


By Begbie (Begbie) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 05:26 pm:

Sorry for the grammatical errors. Typing at work is bad.


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 05:29 pm:

Disenchant should be Dismantling Blow.

Advice on building a mana base for keeper lacking all the power can be found here, courtesy of Rakso:

The Pernicious Deed really is harsh on this deck, because you'll want to keep your artifacts and the occasional enchantment in play, plus it's a strain on the mana base, involving two non-primary colors to cast. If you're trying to stem aggro decks, your solutions need to be able to come down early and often. I'd switch it for a Fire/Ice (which can be used with both Merchant Scroll and Force of Will), except that you don't have a lot of red sources, in which case you might try hunting up a maindeck Moat or another Swords.

By Robb Williams (Robb) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 05:46 pm:

The deck that I play is fully powered but also 4 color-no red. First of all, add another land to make it 28 sources, perhaps an undiscovered paradise.
Secondly, it seems that you are set up pretty well to handle aggro decks with the core, plow, abyss, etc. I would rethink the pernicious deed for two reasons:
1) It requires two colors that are not blue.
2) It kills all your stuff too (sylvan, moxen, COP, Abyss) It is also too slow against fast decks like stompy. Try powder keg instead. It is easy to cast and, although less broad in its destructive power, is fine for sligh and stompy where everything is basically the same cost of 1.

COP Red is OK if you are 100% certain to face a deck where you need it but IMO is a waste against too many other decks. Try out another misdirection or a teferi's response. Teferi's response rocks in combo with mishra's as they are virtually impossible to destroy. You may want to try this:
Add another factory (you need the land anyway)
-cop red
-1 counterspell
+2 teferi's response (or 1 + 1 misdirection)
If there are a lot of wastelends in your area or aggro decks like mono black with sinkholes, sligh with bolts, they will be an awesome addition.

Otherwise your deck is so similar to mine that I'd have to say i like it. Just work on getting the other moxen, you already have the good ones (except jet)

By Robb Williams (Robb) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 05:56 pm:

Oops, duplicated a lot of what was just said. Didn't notice the responses. I still don't mind masticore too much since it is also a win condition but I'd only use it if there was a lot of random aggro. My area (NG) doesn't warrant it.

By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 11:25 pm:

Thanks you for your input.

Ok, so Deed is out, and Nastycore I never really like much, so we made the following changes:

-1 Masticore
-1 Deed
-1 Counterspell
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Teferi's Response+1 Powder Keg
CoP: Red will remain as even one loss to stupid burn is unacceptable.

Chicken stays just becasue. (yes I know that D.Blow is a lot better, but it just doesn't have the old world charm)
Any ideas on sideboarding, I personally don't have much clue on how to SB a keeper deck? (other than obvious things like Abyss out agsint creatureless)

By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 11:42 pm:

Personally, I would play some multi-colored Ophidian creation instead of half-powered Keeper. Keeper depends very much on Drains and full jewelry for acceleration so I think the cheaper CC of phids make them very attractive for a play with less power. Certainly easier to manage without drains than a large cc X-spell.

Really red, black, and/or green all give you excellent options and white gives yo balance and sligh hate in the SB. I've toyed around with U/R, U/G, IU/B, U/B/R, and U/G/R Phids decks many a time and thought they were quite solid.


By Robb Williams (Robb) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 12:17 am:

Typically I would try a SB like this.
1 COP Red (sligh)
1 COP Black (duh)
3-4 Duress (control)
2 Misdirection (mono black with hymns/sinkholes
or mirror match)
1 Teferi's Response (mono black with sinkholes)
1-2 Perish (stompy)
1 Powder Keg (sligh/stompy)
1 Ensnaring Bridge (mono black discard)
1 Aura Fracture (BBS, oath, survival)
1 Moat, maybe or other creature control

I try to have about 4 cards to SB vs each deck. Keep in mind that these suggestions are general but, in essence, what I play minus a few personal tech cards like caltrops and jester's cap or black vise.

By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:56 pm:

Robb, don't forget the 3 Extract and one Black Vise! Nyaaaah!


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:23 am:

I have to agree with Matt, i think Ur or Ub Ophidian can be quite strong. You should consider it.

By Robb Williams (Robb) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 04:03 pm:

Matt, don't forget to die to the black vise like a little beeyatch like last time. Nyyyaah!


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