OSE or WOSE?

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: OSE or WOSE?

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By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 04:38 am:

This is my version of OSE.

LANDS (24)
4 underground sea
4 underground river
4 misra's factory
1 strip mine
2 wasteland
1 undiscovered paradise
1 library of alexandria
7 island

COUNTERS (13)
4 mana drain
4 force of will
3 counterspell
2 misdirection

DRAW (6)
1 ancestral recall
1 merchant scroll
1 fact or fiction
1 stroke of genius
1 mystical tutor
1 referi's response

BLACK (7)
1 skeletal scrying
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 mind twist
1 yawgmoth's will
1 the abyss
1 diabolic edict

CREATURES (4)
2 morphling
2 masticore

ARTIFACTS (6)
1 sol ring
3 powder keg
1 nevinyrral's disk
1 mox saphire (in place of an island?)

SB:
2 morhpling
2 masticore
3 blue elemental blast
1 powder keg
1 disk

1 zuran orb or ivory tower? )
3 disrupt )******** Still under consideration
2 capsize )


1) I just got my first MOX!!!!! A mox saphire, so now i think i am semi-powered. I got the mox, the library and the ancestral recall... well i got a long way far ahead :)

2) What sould i take out to include the mox? i know island is the most obvious choice but i expect a lot of non-basic land hate and land destruction. I believe the solution is not to mainboard more responses since they are not versatile and there will be times when i will not want them in hand.

3) I think of adding another color much like Az did but NOT RED. my metagame does not consist of keeper so red is not a good choice. but white has StP, BALANCE and disenchant (and family). Also CoR and lots of other tech. Hell, even vindicate seems OK. What do you think?

4) is ivory tower good against aggro? having a full hand and a library seems that you can gain 4 life each turn, not bad at all...! this alone could counter half of the burn from a sly deck and half the attacks from stompy...


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 04:42 am:

Hmmm i messed up a bit... the under consideration cards are:

1 zuran orb or ivory tower
3 disrupt
2 capsize


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 12:02 pm:

come on guys, any opinions?


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 01:13 pm:

Well, I don't understand why people keep playing the UB version, but here's some advice anyway. :)

LANDS (24)
4 underground sea
4 underground river
4 misra's factory
1 strip mine
2 wasteland -- Why people insist on not running enough LD is beyond me. This NEEDS to be 3, and you should also be running 27 mana sources total.
1 undiscovered paradise
1 library of alexandria
7 island

COUNTERS (13)
4 mana drain
4 force of will
3 counterspell -- too many Counterspells. Here are your additional mana sources and a second Edict.
2 misdirection

DRAW (6)
1 ancestral recall
1 merchant scroll
1 fact or fiction
1 stroke of genius
1 mystical tutor
1 teferi's response

BLACK (7)
1 skeletal scrying
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 mind twist
1 yawgmoth's will
1 the abyss
1 diabolic edict -- Add one.

CREATURES (4)
2 morphling
2 masticore

ARTIFACTS (6)
1 sol ring
3 powder keg
1 nevinyrral's disk
1 mox saphire (in place of an island?)

As far as an SB goes, I'd go with:

4 Duress
1 Scrying Glass
1 Disk
1 Morphling
4 BEB
1 Zuran Orb
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Ensnaring Bridge


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 01:24 pm:

thenks Az but since i donnot own all the p9 i prefer to play more controlish with the extra counters. also the manasources are 26 and i think they are fine. as for the extra wasteland OK.

Tell me about the white splash instead of the red. Any chances and why not? I do not play against keeper.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 01:28 pm:

I don't like white. If you want to run Balance and D.Blow, then I guess that would be fine, but I prefer red for sideboard options.


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 01:54 pm:

I will try both of them in actual tournaments and then decide.

I was actually think


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 01:55 pm:

What? there goes my post...

i was thinking for balance, swords and d.blow for the white splash...

what do you think?


By Anxiety (Anxiety) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 06:43 pm:

Well, Aforitos, let's suppose you put in some white cards. Say, Balance, and Dismantling Blow and you take out a Masticore. You add wastelands and take out a few other cards, like Skeletal Scrying, Response, and Factories for the power cards. You now have a three color keeper deck.

I think that the best build wOSE deck will default to a keeper like strategy.

Thoughts.

-Anxiety


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 06:51 pm:

::sigh::


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 01:29 am:

Come on Az I'm only testing yet. don't take this so heavily... chill out.

thanks for your advise. i'll keep in mind that it will play as a 3 color keeper. ;)


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 01:34 am:

Look... why not take his advice and play WORSE?


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 01:36 am:

Hahahah


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 02:12 am:

cool hehehe. I think i'll call that... wOrSE


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 02:16 am:

any ideas about point 4? a lot of my games against non-discard decks could have ended on my favour if i had this instead of zorb


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 08:32 am:

I was sighing at the "three color Keeper" thing, which is patently false, completely misleading, and steeped in ignorance. Adding white over red makes much less of a difference than actually understanding how OSE works.


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 10:49 am:

I have no comments about the deck, I just want to comment about Azhrei.

-------

It started off as a sigh.

Just a sigh...

But as he read all this thread, he could feel something well up from deep inside of himself...

Azhrei looks around the room, as it seems to spin, his head throbbing, pounding from within his ears.

His hands shaking Azhrei, starts to type, but cannot steady himself, with tears starting to form in his eyes, he chokes, "w-o-s-e?"

"They must be made to understand."

As he begins to openly sob he buries his head into the palms of his hands.

"Why?"

"Why?" he asks...

Looking up threw his fingers and a haze of sorrow, he catches another glimpse of Anxiety's post:

"Three color...?" choking to control his weeping.

"Three color Keeper...?"

Azhrei falls out of his chair, to his knees onto the cold floor, his head slumped, slamming his fist into the tile.

"... bastards..."

A creepy calm falls over Azhrei's face, as he wipes the tears away from his face using the back of his wrist.

"... must be made, to u-understand"

He thrusts his head back, and his arms into the air screaming over and over, until his voice gives out on him,

"Must understand"
"Have To UNDERSTAND"

"MUST UNDERSTAND!"

-------

I was there I saw it all.

After about an hour of this, Azhrei passed out.

As he lay there on the cold floor, in the fetal position, in a puddle of his own tears, all I could think was...

"I hope none ever says that OSE is just a # Color keeper"

That'll do Azhrei. That'll do.

-Freddie


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 03:19 pm:

I had to take Azhrei to the "Hospital" for analasis.

While the doctor was reading the report, he asked me "So in other words it's like a 3 color keeper, right?"

I immediatly winced, and turned just in time to see Azhrei come out of his comatose state and leap upon the doctor...

He just kept saying "i must make you understand"

Although the doctor was well over 300 lbs, and was in good shape, and even though Azhrei is not a big man, the doctor never had a chance.

-Freddie

:)


By Justin (Justin) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 05:14 pm:

now thats funny.


By AHappyClown (Clown) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 06:22 pm:

Anxiety does have a point though. If you remove the cards that allow/cause OSE to play differently than Keeper, yet don't add the green or red, you WILL have a 3-color Keeper deck. It will also probably suck, but hey, who's keeping track...

The point here is that, at least to my knowledge, Aforitos is trying to build an OSE variant with white, not a 3-color Keeper. My advice to him in that case, would be to remove the Counterspells. They cause you to play a more controllish game, and OSE is aggro-control. Otherwise, attempt a 3-color Keeper.


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 06:28 pm:

Azhrei... I am sorry to say is, well, he is

Insane.

totally insane.

Raving about how OSE is played differently then keeper, to everyone he sees.

he made a priest on the street cry.

and wet himself.

Azhrei is unrelenting, no remorse.

On the way home, after breaking out of the "hospital" Azhrei and I were stopped by a police man, as he had seen Azhrei hanging out of the window, screaming at the onlookers.

when the policeman was filling out his report, he asked us "so you could say, that its like a 3 color keeper, or something?"

My blood ran cold as i felt all of the muscels flex in Azhrei's body, all at once.

I was nearly killed as Azhrei jumped over me and THREW the drives side window, tackling the policeman.

With Azhrei's superior strength and speed, plus the fact that Azhrei is insane and has no realization of pain... the policeman had, well, not a chance.

I had to flee for my life was in danger, but as i crept from the car and into the woods just past the side of the road, I heard Azhrei chanting.

This chant can only be described as haunting.

I remember that the policemans entrails were shaped into words on the pavement...

This is ehat it read:

"OSE IS NOT KEEPER, IT IS A DIFFERENT DECK, FOR THE LAST TIME!"

it even had the "," and the "!", I kid you not.

He is still out there, roaming the streets, "preaching the gospil," to those that cross his path.

OSE is not Keeper.

-Freddie
:)


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 06:30 pm:

Disclaimer:

Freddie E Williams II is in way responcible for the havoc that Azhrei may unleash.

OSE is not Keeper


By Jacob Orlove (Orlove) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 07:03 pm:

Isn't Azhrei like 12?
Or are Matt and JP just joking around again?


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 07:14 pm:

he's 22


By Jacob Orlove (Orlove) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 07:17 pm:


Quote:

By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 02:53 pm:
LIAR!!!!!!! You just just turned thirteen, not twenty-two. Don't make J.P. get involved and post your picture again.




Well, apparently Matt meant himself when he said "liar," I guess :)


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 07:23 pm:

I am 22. I am actually not a small guy either. I have no remorse. Anxiety does not really have a good point, so don't say he does. :P


By AHappyClown (Clown) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 07:52 pm:

Well, my point about Anxiety's point is this: How many different cards does OSE have than a Keeper deck? The skeleton of a blue-based control deck is still there. OSE just takes a more agressive approach. If you remove the agressive elements of OSE and replace them with 2 more colors and defense, then yes, you have a Keeper deck.

It's kind of like a sex-change operation...if you remove a guy's equipment and give him female genetalia, then technically, he's now a female. Either way, "it" is still human...

But all of that is irellevant, because what I originally meant was that you could toss Anxiety's statement in a blender with some milk and make an idiot shake.

Seriously, basically what he said was that you can take the cadets and chains out of Sligh and replace them with Pillages and Stone Rains to make a Ponza deck.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 07:55 pm:

He's cutting a Disk and a Keg to add Balance and D.Blow....

How does that change the way the deck should play? I don't get it.


By Begbie (Begbie) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 11:19 pm:

It makes it worse? Or was that a rhetorical question?


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 01:53 am:

Hmm if I knew this was going to end as a BIG debate and destroy what was left from his psycological world then I wouldn't have started this thread.

AZREI I DO UNDERSTAND that OSE plays differently than keeper does. I do. I just wanted to search in places where no one has searched before, to go where no one has ever gone before... Well find a different approach for OSE. Since I DO NOT play against keeper here I thought of removing red since i do not need the sb so much. (yes there are mono U control but probably with no drains and/or fow) inthat case (and since my field has lots of aggro) i thought that MAYBE white could replace red as the third color.

And about the cards, i was actually thinking of removing:

2 counterspell for balance and d.blow
1 diabolic edict for swords

rivers become cities and add 4 tundra

Of course now b2b kills me even more but what the hell I should be the aggressive player when playing against that ;)


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 02:28 am:

Sounds like a plan to me. :) Very Buckwheat of you (Nameless OSE).


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 06:26 am:

mmm I didn't catch that last one... (buckwheat?)


By Anxiety (Anxiety) on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 09:49 pm:

Sorry, haven't had time to check the site for a few days, had to do interviews for several assistants at work and been very busy.

And I find that one simple statement of mine has become fairly large :)

And I can see how what I said could be seen as something different, because I didn't speak with exactness, so let me do so now.

Of course, OSE is a different deck than Keeper, with a different playstyle, and a different way of winning, that much is obvious. But the deck submitted above is the older B/U version of OSE. Additionally, it is devoid of power.

Occasionally, in Magic, there is a deck idea that may sound good at first, but when you explore it, and its card choices, you eventually relize that the best possible version of that deck is worse than another deck which shares some common ground.

THe problem with adding white to OSE is that it is not optimal. The best possible white additions take away from those tempo aspects of OSE, and lead it into a more fully control deck, a la The Deck, or Keeper.

That is why red is a much better fir for the dec, because red elements can be equally control and aggro, thus fitting the OSE element. White does not fit this theme, nor does green for that matter.

Therefore, if you were to set out with the theory of developing a white OSE deck, I believe that when you take the above decklist, fully power it up, and make reasonable card substitutions, you will find that you are virtually identical to a control deck in the vein of Keeper. This becomes more apparent when you start analyzing the individual card choices, and using the best possible cards.

I hope that clears things up.

Thoughts.

-Anxiety


By Aforitos, The Bluemage (Aforitos) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 06:49 am:

Thanks anxiety that has been very enlightening!!

So for now I'll stick with the Ub version but I will make tests for the red as well.


By DefiantVanguardVs.PhyrexianInvasion (Puschkin) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 03:09 am:

Ahzrei, let me explain what disturbes you: People comparing OSE to Keeper, people still playing the two-coloured version and people "not understanding" OSE.

You are kinda biased in that way that you spent too much, yes, too much time in developing and playing OSE. You get into details a "normal" player in a realistic environment does not encounter, such as playing vs. optimal Keepers piloted by experienced players all day.
Next, what did OSE originate from? We had XL-Blue at it´s height and Keeper turning into Dark Keeper to reflect the control-only-metagame. Ose basically merged these two, stripped off Keepers toys and colours to incorporate XL-Blues aggressiveness and simplicity, without reducing it to a mono-colour hate-magnet that lacks some of the most broken cards in Magic.
This may be wrong, but it´s the way it looks, the way every average Type I enthusiast sees it, be it of lack of knowledge, different experiences with metagames, etc.
One of the benefits of OSE was the -compareable to Keeper- lower invulnerability to BtB and other non-basic hate. Adding a third colour, no matter which, negates this benefit and the simplicity OSE seems to have over Keeper.
My first thought of OSE was: Nice, finally a tier one deck that isn´t Keeper, isn´t boring like BBS and is flexible enough to qualify for aggro-control. People are just happy to play some kind of aggro without giving up win percentages.
The original decklist, the two-coloured one, has the "original" and "rogue" feeling and is the obvious choice to start the new experience that OSE is with. You don´t play Keeper the first time you play control, don´t you? And the additions of rOSE don´t look like being worth the messed up mana base, at least in a more casual or more aggro oriented environment, which most are.
You could tell me all day long to start with rOSE, I would (and will soon) start with an old decklist for all these reasons.

And don´t expect all others to realize everything you researched to make OSE what it is today by just looking at the decklist and maybe reading your primer. We may sit on a Treetop Village compared to you, but if that is true you are at least sitting in an Ivory Tower.

A neutral point of view.


By Begbie (Begbie) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:26 am:

A neutral point of view that ignores the following:

The development history of OSE, Keeper, and Dark Keeper - OSE was created before Dark Keeper and modern XL Blue would have been around to merge. If I recall, it was around before Gary Wise's invitational deck.

Common sense - Adding a third color and 4 Red Elemental Blasts increases a decks vulnerability to non-basic hate (B2B)? Adding red for Pyroclasm and Fire/Ice makes you worse against aggro?

The point of Beyond Dominia - Stating that an opinion may be due to a lack of knowledge does little to strengthen that opinion. I'm not here to learn what people think due to a lack of knowledge; the point of this community is to disseminate knowledge, not to hide behind erroneous opinions simply because they are your own.

I may dislike the way Azhrei and Matt make their points. But I do listen to them because they are both better than I, think their posts through before writing, and generally save me hours of playtesting time running down dead ends.

Begbie


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:31 am:

you go Begbie.


By DefiantVanguardVs.PhyrexianInvasion (Puschkin) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 12:03 pm:

If I screwed up some things it´s exactly what I meant. I don´t know how long and exactly when Ahzrei and Co came up with OSE, what I stated above is what the average dude assumes. Red E Blasts won´t stop Wastelands, Blood Moons or Price of Progress. Pyroclasm looks like out of place for Type I. You may have something to say against this as well but the thing is that we are already deeply in strategy - so deeply that opinions DO matter.

I am neutral in that way that I don´t have to defend the deck that I invented and that I haven´t even contributed in this discussion - for good reason. I do see both sides misunderstanding each other and getting slowly annoyed and just felt the urge to explain it.

Don´t think that I won´t listen to him. But you should also realize that not everything he says is written in gold and true for every environment. If that was true only a handful of selected magic-gurus would invent and develop decks and the rest would be bound to their lips and netdecking - not exactly what I call a healthy community. Even then, it would be more and more difficult to follow and understand these gurus, some things you´ll have to experience yourself to fully understand it. I am good enough of a Type I player to copy a well known decktype I played against before and play it myself successfully enough to familiarize it, but I won´t copy a new deck that I never played with or gainst and use the latest, finetuned, metagamed version. I start with the basics and if I feel the need to add red I know what to try thanx to Ahzrei´s undoubtful exellent work.

If even my comment, which was meant to arbitrate, isn´t welcome, I don´t know what will be in the future of BD.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 01:33 pm:

That IS an inaccurate history though. The correct one is well documented in my primer. The first deck I looked at was Mikephoen's Forbidian-- Keeper never has been and never will be a factor in determining the contents of OSE. To indicate otherwise is just patently false, and is only the result of a lack of knowledge. Metagame experiences do not sufficiently account for a misrepresentation of historical data.

In all honesty, I could care less if people ever play my deck well-- it's almost a guarantee that many won't. What I do care about is that people understand the basic theory behind the cards that went into it, which resulted from stripping down a mono-blue Forbidian deck and replacing the "extra" spells with first black and artifacts, and then red. It's no more accurate to say OSE is based in Keeper than it would be to say that BBS is mono-blue Keeper. It's absurd. The original decklist in *inferior* to the current one. It is not a "beginners" list, it is just not as good. It also doesn't have an "original" or "rogue" feeling. It's a netdeck now, just a little younger than some others.

A point of view biased by experience, factual accuracy, and virtue of creation.


By Azhrei (Azhrei) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 01:39 pm:

Although I do concede that I can see the benefits of trying both versions out; hopefully it will help someone come to the understanding of why the UBr version works better. That's not *really* very important to me though.

What *does* matter is that the deck itself is understood properly-- UB or UBr is secondary to knowing how to play it and why the cards are there. This is why I get ruffled about the "Keeper without white or green" comments, because that is just going to put people in a totally wrong mindset to play the deck. Whenever I tried to play Keeper again after a year with OSE, it took me a while to switch gears because of how *differently* the decks are ideally played.

That's what is important to understand, much more so than whether or not to include a third color.


By The Usual Stompist (Fbi) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 01:57 pm:

So maybe my Keeper is just a 5 color OSE then...


By Dante (Dante) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 02:03 pm:

Maybe your Stompy deck is just a mono-color OSE in disguise? ;)


By DefiantVanguardVs.PhyrexianInvasion (Puschkin) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 02:12 pm:

No. Everything is a Time Walk. You should have known.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 02:12 pm:


Quote:

That IS an inaccurate history though. The correct one is well documented in my primer. The first deck I looked at was Mikephoen's Forbidian-- Keeper never has been and never will be a factor in determining the contents of OSE.



He's right, I can vouch for that.

He was talking to some of us in private the whole time.

Gary Wise also looked at Mikephoen's deck first. He told me, and that's the same thing he said on Sideboard.


By The Usual Stompist (Fbi) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 02:35 pm:

Dammit, the truth is out! My stompy is just a mono-green keeper :(

So maybe everything is a...seedtime? Well, that needs help :)


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 04:55 pm:

The only really good reasons to play the U/B version are a) you're not using sideboards, and b) you play in a Powerless environment where the Monkey is a 1/1 warm body akin to Mons' Goblin Raiders.

I play almost all casual, so I use the U/B. Fire/Ice is a great card, but not quite great enough to splash an entire color to support it.

Inability to bring the sideboard Blasts and Pyroclasms into play is the only possible justification for playing the U/B OSE today. Those are so vital in virtually every matchup. In a competitive setting, the original version just doesn't cut it in comparison.


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