T1 Pandeburst

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: T1 Pandeburst

By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 01:12 am:

Yes, I'm thinking of playing this in local tournaments. It happens to be an environment where I think I can get away with it. If you have any experience with the deck, please peruse this list and comment. What follows below is only a first draft, and is strictly based on what I could think of. As a thought experiment, it's possibly got some cards that simply don't belong. Sideboard ideas are also welcome.
What's the best sideboard solution here to stompy, because I'm going to see it?

7 SoLoMoxen
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

3 Saproling Burst
3 Pandemonium
4 Replenish

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Tainted Pact
1 Frantic Search
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar

3 Hydroblast

By Tristal (Tristal) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 01:22 am:

Not nearly enough discard in the deck. Tainted Pact is not worth using over Impulse. Brainstorm sucks. You look low on mana sources.

You need some kind of engine to actually get the combo in the graveyard besides Intuition. Try Attunement or Bazaar of Baghdad.

Memory Jar might cost too much.

Anti-green SB is Hibernation; if 4 slots aren't enough, try Perish.

I'll post my own decklist when I get to a real computer.

By Matt the Great (Matt) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 03:13 am:

Could False Memories work here? Just a thought...

For reference...

False Memories 1U instant
Put the top seven cards of your library into your graveyard. At end of turn, remove seven cards in your graveyard from the game.

By Tristal (Tristal) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 10:10 am:

I feel if you're going to play an effect like that, to just use Entomb instead. While it won't get you both elements, False Memories rarely will - and if FM doesn't, it'll get something else in the graveyard that you don't want. Entomb does the job for one less mana, and while not pitching to FoW, is a pretty sure thing and a nice one-drop.

Also, you'll have to already have one card in the graveyard to use FM efficiently - if you do happen to get both cards in the graveyard, you need something else there to protect the combo, as there will only be 8 cards (FM + the 7) and 7 have to be removed.

With the latest mechanics being very graveyard-oriented, there have been a lot of possibly playable cards for this archetype. The ones that stand out are the cards that give you a choice as to what hits the graveyard. My two choices are Careful Study and Entomb.

By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 11:33 am:

Tristal, I hadn't thought of Careful Study, largely because it's normally such a bad card. But in this case, it makes perfect sense. Unlike Entomb, it gives you a shot at dumping both elements into the graveyard, plus it pitches to Force. At worst it digs.

Bazaar of Baghdad also is an obvious one. I'll look forward to your deck list.

By Tristal (Tristal) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 03:02 pm:

Tristal's Powerless Pandeburst v2.1

4 Replenish
3 Pandemonium
3 Saproling Burst

4 Intuition
4 Attunement
2 Entomb
2 Careful Study
R Frantic Search
R Demonic Tutor
R Fact or Fiction

Board control:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Balance
1 Seal of Cleansing

Mana thingies:
R Sol Ring
R Mana Vault
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 City of Brass
3 Adarkar Wastes
6 Island
1 Plains (Blood Moon defense)

Since I don't have power, I decided to go the Mana Drain route. Duress is preferable if you have the Moxen.
Mana Crypt is an obvious addition that I simply don't have.
Cards I have tried and have not made the cut:

Nether Spirit: Works great with Entomb and the like, but if you're worried about blocking, you've already lost.
The Abyss: The most recent cut, while obviously a powerhouse, 4 CC spells not beginning with R and ending in eplenish shouldn't be cast. Balance took its place.
The fourth Pandemonium/Burst: Deemed unnecessary with the amount of search.
A second Seal of Cleansing: Not necessary. I found that few enchantments actually wrecked me pre-sideboard.
Mox Diamond: Absolute trash. There's so much card disadvantage in the deck, this is not even acceleration.
Misdirection: Basically the 5th Force of Will - a lot of times I wish it were there, but it didn't help the combo any.
Mystical Tutor: Without Ancestral or Time Walk, this is worthless in my deck.
Duress: If I'm going to draw a counterspell, I might as well use Orim's Chant. Mana Drain, while costing more and being reactive, is an accelerant and is downright amazing.
Counterspell: THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR MANA DRAIN. Play Duress over this.

Cards that I have yet to test:
False Memories
Demonic Consultation
Squee, Goblin Nabob

By CF (Cf) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 05:58 pm:

You need more mana. Add Mana Vault, Mana Crypt and Academy.

I'd go -4 Brainstorm, -Tainted Pact, -Fact or Fiction (too slow), -Memory Jar (too slow), +3 mana and +4 Attunement.

Sideboard against Stompy: Peacekeeper. He's insane and give you all the time in the world. Perish is also nice.


By The Usual Stompist (Fbi) on Monday, April 15, 2002 - 09:17 am:

The worst part about peacekeeper is being forced to declare an attack every turn -- with NO CREATURES

good thing lowly stompy players don't have egos:)

By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Monday, April 15, 2002 - 09:22 am:

I am ignorant with this type of deck, please forgive the question(s)

is Sap. Burst only really good with replinish?

Dose it have some other combo in the deck?

Sorry, the only Pandeburst deck I have played against was against some kid that mana stacked his deck, and after I shuffeled it, he kept a 1 land hand the first game and a N-O L-A-N-D hand the second... So i saw little of the deck.


By Tristal (Tristal) on Monday, April 15, 2002 - 10:33 am:

Saproling Burst combos with Pandemonium to deal 21 damage directly to the opponent. That's all the combo the deck needs. :)

Some versions go out of their way with the mana base to make sure they can hardcast the combo (Tropical/Volcanic instead of islands), some don't (Mine goes directly for Replenish). Either way, I do have Cities of Brass to hardcast stuff lategame if necessary.

By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Monday, April 15, 2002 - 10:56 am:

ah, cool combo, I didn't even really think about it taht way, I was to busy thinking WTF?


By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 11:45 pm:

Seems like we have two threads. I suspect that there would be more than merely the mana base that would separate a powered and powerless version of the deck.

Mana drain, Orim's Chant, Duress is one major set of questions. Drain is an obvious accellerant, but Duress allows you to see the hand before attempting to go off. To me, that makes it even more important than mere counterbait. As Tristal said, tho, if you aren't running moxen, you may need these to speed the kill.

Which spells to use to fuel the combo is another problem. Careful study is almost as good as frantic search. Even better if it allows you to dump out the elements from a broken opening hand. Entomb is intriguing. Is it worth it to run a spell that only gets one third of the combo and doesn't pitch to Force?

Whether the mana base can afford the Bazaar of Baghdad is also worth discussion, but it seems obvious for inclusion here.

By Tristal (Tristal) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 05:15 pm:

The way I've figured it is that the Attunement route is better if you're without moxes, and the Bazaar route is better if you have moxes.

I use Mana Drains because A) I had them lying around and hate not using power cards I own, and B) I don't have anything better to do second turn anyway, nor can I find anything worthwhile. (If Catalog cost 1U, I'd play it...)

My using Entombs was more of a way to get Nether Spirit out when I had it in the deck. The more I think about Entomb I can't help but think how horrible it is (1 card for basically 0) but just about every card in this deck is -1 card advantage anyway. Entomb is just a sure thing; and, when you have Replenish in your hand and one element in the GY, Entomb is a GREAT card to DT for, though Intuition can perform the same function for two more mana. This often means an extra turn of waiting.

Yes, Duress is all kinds of great, but control is nowhere near as prevalent in my metagame as it is on BD. Duress is a dead draw against aggro. Mana Drain isn't a dead draw against any deck with spells. You be the judge.

By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:07 pm:

And what about Wheel of Fortune? In this deck, it would not only allow you to dump out the elements, but also *replenish* the hand. Once in a while, it will be dead, because you'll be holding the combo element you want in your hand...but then, that's okay, isn't it?

By Taco deShell says Lich stays crunchy even in milk (Taco) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:21 pm:

where is this local tournie you speak of bjimmy


By Tristal (Tristal) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:26 pm:

I agree, Wheel's one of those cards I've just never bothered to try and fit in. The problem is, you often don't want to refill your opponent's hand. Windfall works great and pitches to FoW; simply haven't tested it yet.

By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 11:17 pm:

Taco: write to me in email and I'll tell you about the Philly area T1 tourneys.

By Taco deShell says Lich stays crunchy even in milk (Taco) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:56 pm:

i don't have your email...
here's mine!



By Tracer Bullet, Voice of Reason (Tracer) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 08:28 pm:

Taco, in case you're wondering, everybody with an account has their e-mail linked to their name. Simply click on their name to open your default e-mail account.

By Tristal (Tristal) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 06:10 pm:

Newest version:
Tristal's Powerless Pandeburst V2.2
4 Replenish
3 Pandemonium
3 Saproling Burst

4 Intuition
*2 Attunement
2 Entomb
*4 Careful Study
R Frantic Search
R Demonic Tutor
R Fact or Fiction

Board control:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Balance
*1 Disenchant

Mana thingies:
R Sol Ring
R Mana Vault
*R Mana Crypt
*4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 City of Brass
6 Island

* Denotes changes since last version.

Explanation of changes:
Mana Crypt - No brainer. I got it, so I'm playing it.
Disenchant - Seal 2nd turn conflicts with Mana Drain. The synergy with Replenish was extremely negligible.
Careful Study - Sometimes, turn 3 just has too much stuff to do and not enough mana to use it with. CS replaced 2 Attunements. This also helps against one- and two-land hands, and can make the 5 land hand keepable.
Gemstone Mine - One of these days, I'm adding Duress. Might as well start now. Another way to hardcast, if necessary.

Comments appreciated.

By Cursedscr (Cursedscr) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:39 pm:

Circular logic shoudl be in t1 replenish.

By Tristal (Tristal) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:53 pm:

No, it shouldn't. :P Careful Study is a sorcery, and you generally use Attunement on your main phase.

By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 12:20 am:

Tristal, the one disenchant maindeck seems odd to me. I mean, there are enchantments & artifacts that can shut this deck down (COP:Red,Tormod's Crypt, Planar Void), but they won't come up so often in somebody's maindeck that I'd worry about this.

My working theory about Pandeburst is that the maindeck should be the most efficient kill machine it can be, no spare defensive parts. Even the Duress and counters are more about forcing through offense than stalling the opponent.

I think you're crazy not to work in Demonic Consultation or Mystical Tutor...you've so oriented your dig and search to putting the combo elements in the graveyard, but just as important is getting the Replenish into your hand.

By Gizzard (Gizzard) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 02:28 pm:

> 2 Entomb

Hows this working for you? I never considered using anything that doesnt search at the same time (Attunement, Bazaar) so it seems a little one dimensional to me.

> No, [Circular Logic] shouldn't. :P Careful
> Study is a sorcery, and you generally
> use Attunement on your main phase.

Take a look at TimW's Pandeburst posted in another thread. Since he uses Bazaar, he's had a lot more success with Logic. I agree that you probably cant fit it in, since you will want to protect things like a turn 3 Attunement or turn 4 Replenish and you just wont have the spare mana to do so, as well as the timing not working out.

> *4 Gemstone Mine

Hows the land mix working out? I'd be a bit nervous playing 22 lands with 4 of them being Gemstones.

By Tristal (Tristal) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 01:10 pm:

I removed an Entomb for a Vamp Tutor. One Entomb is still nice to have around when you want to tutor for it, but it's not an engine.

I still disagree with Logic even in Bazaar-based decks, but by all means try it out. If it works, go with it. My addendum to (Attunement vs. Bazaar) is that if you have moxen, you should really be playing different decks. ;)

I personally don't like Gemstone Mines, but when you need the black mana, they're there. Late game if you're in danger of running out a mine, you've already set up enough card digging that you can spare one or two cards for land.

The Disenchant helps against maindeck B2B, as well as just about anything else random that might annoy me (Kegs killing Sol Ring, etc) but yes, it does interfere with the goldfish. Problem is, it basically goes in against everything if it's sideboarded.

By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 12:25 am:

The deck I've been practicing with looks like this now:

4 Replenish
3 Saproling Burst
3 Pandemonium

4 Careful Study
4 Intuition
2 Attunement
R Frantic Search
R Ancestral Recall
R Timewalk
R Demonic Tutor
R Mystical Tutor
R Demonic Consultation

4 Force of Will
4 Duress

7 SoLoMoxen
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Mana Vault

This deck goldfishes like no other, since you more or less ignore your opponent anyway. So I ran a test of 40 goldfish hands, always assuming going first. (Theoretically, I should have randomly rolled to determine play or draw.) Here were the results:

Turn 3 kills: 13
Turn 4: 14
Turn 5: 5
Turn 6: 2
Turn 7: 1
Turn 8 or greater: 5

I also tracked if there were key cards in the turn 3 or turn 4 kills, without the arrival of which, the kill would have been delayed one or more turns. The three big MVPs from this sample were (1) Demonic Consultation, (2) Mana Vault, 3)Careful Study. Other usual suspects were great, of course (Lotus, Ancestral, Mystical, Bazaar), but these often only saved the day rarely, while the MVP's accounted for 5 or more critical turns each. Attunement sometimes did the job, but it was the solution of last resort. Definitely not a card I wanted four of.

Unfortunately, I didn't track how many times I was holding FoW backup when I played the Replenish, but I'd estimate that it was about 1/3 to 2/5 of the time that I was able to Force Replenish or lead it with a Duress. I'm sorry I don't have a more accurate count.

While a Turn 1 Goldfish is possible with this deck, it'll happen very rarely. I was surprised, though, that I didn't manage to pull off a turn 2 goldfish kill even once.

Still interested in hearing bright ideas.

By Cursedscr (Cursedscr) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 06:46 am:

Okay, this is gonna soudn like a strange analogy but i built a t1(more like 1.5 but iwth mox ruby and black lotus) that goldfishes on turn 3 about 20% of the time, goldfishes on turn 4 guarnteed. now considering how fast it is, the major trouble with such developments is disruption. Okay, so the sligh analogy isn't perfect but the idea is that in t1, you can never expect full speed ahead kind of decks to really actually finish, unless you reduce your wins to mere statistical-oh-igot-a-good hand kind of way.

Regardless, duress is correct in your deck, because it does alot more than FOW IMO. Turn 1, your opponent will be most likely be developing advantage someway somehow, and duress does a good deal to stop him dead. However, FOW being reactionary, does nothing to add to the development, especialy when you are forced to wait for a second blue card to pitch it too when they counter it. I really don't see attunements being any more than cards your gonna pitch to FOW. And regardless of how strong FOW is, you're gonna lose most counter wars b/c you don't have enough development(i consider duress as development as well. they lose something good, hence you net their loss). The main problem is that the engine is just too slow. You don't have time to tap 3 mana for an attunement. Honestly, T1's environment just makes engines like attunement and study too little too late. I know that the traditional build of replenish runs attunements, but I believe bazaar/squee/circular logic does much more, essentially because you are doing this every single turn, while leaving the rest of your mana open for things like walk, tutor, duress, etc. In your deck, w/ 4 intuitions and 2 attunements, you will be finding it hard to duress and attune the same turn early on (like turns 2 and 3) IMO. And those things make or break a deck. But I dont want to discourage you if you really really want to run 4 intutions and 2 attunements, i just think you should run a different engine. I would say 1 intution, and no attunements and throw in the squee/bazzaar engine instead. FOW is really bad in the deck. I don't know how to say it, but it just sits there doing nothing, while your opponent is systematically gaining advantage b/c you can't afford to FOW save your replenish spell. Anyways, TimW's replenish build is quite good, i suggest you trying out that version as well.

By Tristal (Tristal) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 11:59 am:

If you're going Squee-Bazaar, you NEED 4 Intuitions for combo and Squees. I shouldn't have to justify why.

Cursedscr: You don't turn 4 goldfish GUARANTEED, I'm sorry. You can still draw 11 land, no land, etc. If you're not counting these "obvious mulligan" hands, you might as well strike those 5 games at turn 8+, since those were likely mulligan hands too.
FoW does different things than Duress and I think it's important to point that out. Yes, it's card disadvantage, yes, it's not for the goldfish... all negligible when compared to being able to counterspell that first turn Hyppie or Negator. Darn, I'll pitch my Careful Study. Oh look, I'm down a card. Yay, so are you. FoW gets rid of first turn stuff that can't be Duressed (Hyppie, Negator, Lyrist) and still takes a counter in the end. Yes, you need a blue card in hand to use it defending a Replenish; but you also need a black mana to use Duress, along with the 3W. Careful Study isn't an engine; I found this out pretty quickly and have pushed the Attunement count up to 3. Careful Study is never "too little, too late" as unlike Attunement, it basically never gets countered, and is a great first turn play.
"You don't have time to tap 3 mana for an attunement." - You don't have time to waste a land drop with Bazaar, either...
I'll also point out that any kind of disruption this deck can run besides Balance and Mind Twist will sit and do nothing until you decide to cast Replenish. You can almost always afford to FoW in my build; the trick is knowing when to and when not to. I can deal with your third turn Negator instead of pitching my Attunement, but that sideboarded Planar Void is worth pitching to. Not that I need to teach you how to play control, but I think it has to be well understood in this particular deck. I personally am not a huge fan of FoW in this deck either (I side it out a lot) but I can't say it hasn't won me a lot of games, either. If you were to support a Duress/Orim's Chant position, I'd probably support it over FoW.
"Honestly, T1's environment just makes engines like attunement and study too little too late." - Honestly, T1's environment crushes this deck, and if you have a powered keeper/suiblack/oath environment, you should not be running this deck. If you want to play combo, play Trix or Academy, not this.

Bjimminy: Mana Vault is restricted. You probably know this, but you don't designate the 'R' on your list.
Mana Crypt would be even MORE of an MVP in those kills. First turn Intuition, Attunement, or Frantic Search+Careful Study is insane.
Do you find you have enough blue cards to pitch to FoW?
I do think you should either go Bazaar or Attunement and not both, since Bazaar stunts Attunement's development.
How's your Undiscovered Paradise working? It has benefits and disadvantages as far as I can see, but this deck above all needs to hit 4/5 mana ASAP, and that land doesn't help.

By Cursedscr (Cursedscr) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 03:45 pm:

I wasn't talking about Replenish goldfishing turn 4. And yes, you are correct in saying that you need 4 intuitions to get the squees. however, its arguable that 3 is more the natural number. Also i would change sideboarded p. void to tormod's cryt.

By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 04:42 pm:


I made a conscious choice not to include Mana Crypt, but it's a metagame thing because of the amount of sligh I'll have to routinely face. I'm already paining myself with Cities and FoW's. I've got the guts for Demonic Consultation, but I draw the line at the crypt. Besides, the reason why the Vault was an MVP was that it was good have sitting out there so that I could often play the Replenish the same turn that I used another spell to pitch the combo pieces into the grave.

I haven't found a problem with lacking the blue cards to pitch to Force of Will.

The Bazaar is worthy of controversy. I'm not trying to be cute. I'm making sure that I have at least one uncounterable technique for pitching floating around. It's there as an experiment, but could well come out.

Undiscovered Paradise works well for me. I wonder if you continue to think from the perspective of a person who has "felt" the deck without the moxen and lotus. The quantity of mana is pretty well right on in this deck, and it usually just flies into your hand. Mana flood was more of a problem than mana screw when goldfishing. Given that I can expect a couple wasteleands, that's probably a good thing. The Paradise gives me one more color fixer, and the fact that it comes back to the hand is often a bonus: it's not just anti-B2B tech, it also frequently becomes a useful pitch card so that another useful card doesn't have to be discarded to the careful study, attunement, or bazaar. I'll be the first to admit that it would just plain such in a deck without the artifact mana.

By Tristal (Tristal) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 05:48 pm:

Cursedscr: I understand you meant SRB or Sligh, and I still maintain that no legal deck fishes turn 3-4 all the time. 3 Intuition is probably enough, but 1 is not.
As for Planar Void vs. Crypt, Void has to be dealt with before any other phase of the game; Crypt can be dealt with by casting Replenish and simply starting over.

Bjimminy: I don't have the balls for Demonic Consultation, but I adore Crypt. I use Vamp Tutor instead of Consult, which is probably a grave mistake but I've simply lost to Consult too many times.

By Gizzard (Gizzard) on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 01:48 pm:

> Cursedscr: I understand you meant SRB or
> Sligh, and I still maintain that no legal
> deck fishes turn 3-4 all the time

It depends on what you mean by "all the time". When I played a version of Kochiro Maki's Pandeburst and the Attunement version that was popular at the same time, the bulk of my Goldfishes won on turn 3. I dont think it went to turn 5 more than 5% of the time (and I suspected that if I knew the deck better I could lower that number.)

Part of the trick is that Maki ran more tutors, you could count on getting a Replenish or some extra mana; whatever you needed to go off. But really, you dont need to put together many pieces of the puzzle; 2 enchantments in the grave, Replenish in hand and 4 mana. With an early Bazaar you see a lot of cards; 4 mana is actually the biggest problem.

By Bjimminy (Bjimminy) on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 12:25 am:

I've been experimenting with Lim-Dul's Vault in my powered version, and initial results are quite favorable. It turns out that stacking the deck on the first turn is often quite broken, especially when you can flush away those same cards if they lack for brokenness.

Bjimminy says "check it out."

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