Goodbye for now - Protest

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Goodbye for now - Protest

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By CF (Cf) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 03:36 pm:

Where did Smmenen's post about his monoblue deck go? First it was renamed/ridiculed, then suddenly it has vanished. While not everyone may agree with Stephen's decks and concepts (I don't, for instance), his posts (his old one about the future of keeper as well) DOES spur interesting conversations and... silly me.. I thought that was the purpose of this place!?

Since the mods here obviously think it's more important to delete posts according to personal tastes rather than what is fruitful/interesting for the community, I'll leave this place alone for a while.

--
Chris


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 03:59 pm:

A man with backbone. Bravo.


By Aaron (Aaron) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 04:37 pm:

The number of people around here that don't completely suck ass at magic keeps getting lower and lower :(


By Nikodemus (Nikodemus) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 05:06 pm:

So does the number of people who don't agree with the "established" builds of archetypes.

Question: if the primers are the "be-all / end-all" why should any of us bother to build decks?


By White Knight (White_Knight) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 05:13 pm:

"The number of people around here that don't completely suck ass at magic"

It's not just at playing magic, but with a good attitude as well.


By Green Knight (Greenknight) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 05:14 pm:

I want brown paper bag back! What's up with the post being deleted? It was not just a random deck that sucked so bad it made people who looked at it turned to stone! I did not see any flaming in there. It was a solid deck. Rakso what happened?
CF it's been nice seeing your name around…who will play oath now? enjoy your time off.

Z


By White Knight (White_Knight) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 05:15 pm:

I think I said it once, and if not I'm saying it now. No matter how hard some people try I just get the impression the site is dying... We're losing good people, either because of personal conflicts or because of lack of interest/time/other resources which to invest in the game.

I remember it when I started to come to BD...


By David Bruce (Bruce) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 05:37 pm:

Well, I tend to agree, and have spoken with some bigger names about the attitude problems lurking around here.

I think it really broke with the posting of someone saying "my 3-color Keeper," which was apparently so not cool they had to be ridiculed for 8-10 posts. Yeah, we'll see that guy's thoughts on here.

To be honest, that's one reason I DON'T post here. Which seems incredibly ironic that I'm posting pointing out the poor attitudes of the mods, citing why I'm not posting because of the poor attitudes of the mods, which is why I'm not post-

Sorry. You get the idea. :)

Well, I'd say either we ship up to another site or get some sort of positive reaction from the mods. I'd hate to have to bookmark yet another forum, but if we have to move on, we have to move on. Don't fear change, embrace it, that kind o' thing. :)


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 06:22 pm:


Quote:

Question: if the primers are the "be-all / end-all" why should any of us bother to build decks?




Because they aren't the be-all end-all. They are simply the foundation, a set of common guidleines it'd be nice to think everybody had read before asking further questions.

Sort of like an FAQ if you will, it just saves time to have them there to answer questions most people have already agreed on the answer to. Since most of us will agree that a deck of 40 burn spells and 20 mountains does not a good red deck make, we post it conviently so we don't have to answer it again and again.

It up to the reader to decide if he agrees with the rest of us, and if he ses something wrong, it'd be great if he'd share his thoughts so that the rest of us can fix our misconceptions. I mean, going through many of the primers, they are in many cases out of date and have plenty of things that need to be changed.

It's just a good idea for someone who's never seen a type 1 deck to see some examples of what has worked in the past, if only to get a genearl feel for what to expect. Specificity can come later.

What gets irritating is when people put the time in on these things, and people blithley ignore them, or worse, directly contradict them simply because they are commonly agreed upon. Even if you are looking to make your own contribution to strategy, and want it to be original as possible, don't think that that automatically means you have to disprove things that have already been proven.

(That actually not always the case, and I'd love to go off into an epistemlogical discussion, about how theories propogate and change, but it's going to have to wait a little bit, as I have my hands full with my term paper. :( )

While it's nice to have discussions over old things every so often, just to check up, most of the time it's nice to think we have at least a few things figured out.

To CF: Sorry to see you go, sorrier still it's becasue of something like this. I've already logged my complaint with the mods, becasue I don't get it either.

To Bruce and WK: The thing is, if this place dies, there _is_ no other place to talk about serious Type 1. Believe me, I've looked.

So as long as I think that I can make a positive contribution and as long as I think making that contribution is worthwile and appreciated, I'll remain, simply becasue I want to see a continuation of what I'd like to consider a good thing.


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 06:41 pm:

Nobody cares what I think, of course, but I also posted a monoblue aggro-control with Serendibs and Standstills (like IBZ, but not quite) the other day, and it was also deleted. Like Smmenen's, it was obviously not a casual creation (no outright silly card choices or unviable strategies), just a serious deck looking for serious help, which is what I thought this place was for.

Is it specific posters, or just blue decks in general that soak up the hate around here?

In any event, the trend doesn't seem every healthy to me.


By David Bruce (Bruce) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 06:43 pm:

Redman - No argument, there, for certain.

But, to build on this general thread, I'll cite my recent "pissed me off so I'm just not going to bother" incidence.

I had built a Sligh deck with Mishra's Factories over Strip/3 Waste (which is the established norm, as per the primers). Additionally, I had no Wheel, so I suplimented the card-drawing capacity by finding room for 4 Urza's Baubles.

Everyone around here loved the Bauble tech. We play every week, have been doing so for about 2-3 months, now. 2 of the 4 Sligh players around here have copied my build nearly verbatim and have seen their win percentages jump.

There is no Keeper around here, no power, no Abyss, no Moat. Ergo, the Mishra's seem to be the wiser choice to get around CoP:Red, Chill and so on. Now, everyone plays Factories that can find room for them. Even control.

So, basically, I've initiated alot of change around here, got a lot of people siding with me and lots of people are winning more. I decided to take this tech to the next level by posting here and on the Meridian list, which has the same critiquers.

Well, I was berated for not using Strip/Waste. I'm like, the Wastes wouldn't have targets around here and one Strip Mine that could be a 2/2 beater...? IN SLIGH? In Sligh, anything that deals damage is worth a look. Anything that deals more damage than it's mana investment is worth two looks. And, so on.

So, I replied, cited my reasons, etc. Still resistance. I'm like, fine, whatever. I was perfectly clear in saying that the deck was metagamed, but it didn't make a difference.

And the Baubles! Whoa is me who plays with such a janky card. I'm like, look, there are only a finite number of burn spells/critters I want in the deck. Which would be better; playing a sub-optimal piece of crap when I can play a 0cc cycler that just might give me a bit o' scouting? Why not cycle into the better cards rather than playing worse cards?

Yes, I admit, late-game Bauble is so-so, but so is late-game 2/1 unless it can get through. I choose Bauble, as Sligh needs more threats in hand to punch through control's shield. Instead of waiting 2 turns to get 2 threats in hand in the hopes of punching one through, why not cycle the Bauble and have 2 threats in 1 turn? Is that not better?

And, I honestly don't want this place to die. I just want certain attitudes to just accept that no one plays identical decks, everyone's got their own mojo, let's just discuss like civilized adults. Because if this degenerates into a "punkz only" site, forget it. There's no use in following everyone's inside jokes, or getting berated because your experiences differ. Bigotry is bigotry. I've already watched Oscar flame Will Reifer and create a big 'hush' over in the Meridian list, so I think we're seeing a similar state here.

So, Redman, I admire your attitude, man, and I'll give it the effort to keep BD alive, if for no other reason than just one person believes it should for the noblest of reasons. Cheers to you, hombre.


By David Bruce (Bruce) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 06:48 pm:

Yamo--

I read that thread, and I tended to take a long look at Standstill, myself. I mean...if Oath can sneak things in under a radar, I'm sure Standstill can be worked around. Mishra's Factories and other manlands seem to be perfectly ideal, like some sort of weird all-land deck. Crazy things like Rishadan Port and Rath's Edge. Just ideas, probably not fast enough for T1. Sligh/Stompy will simply ignore the card-drawing and keep trying to pound away.

But, honestly, I've played with Standstill, and with a careful, patient control player behind (think Brian Weissman or Sigurd Eskelund, et al) think of the mind games alone. Control on control would last for days as they examined every outcome of allowing their opponent a free Ancestral. It says draw 3 cards! It can't be that bad! :)


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 06:50 pm:

My deck was kind of a freaky hybrid of Landstill and IBZ, yeah.


By Gizzard (Gizzard) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 09:38 pm:

Drat. CF was one of the increasingly few people on this board who I was interested in hearing from; who I felt kept an open mind about decks and has played enough to make his comments worthwhile.

>While it's nice to have discussions over old
>things every so often, just to check up, most of
>the time it's nice to think we have at least a
>few things figured out.

Was the Brown Paper Bag a rehash of an old deck? (I seriously dont know, I didnt look at it before it disappeared.) I thought it was a new creation.

IMHO, new decks seem to attract the most embarrassing reactions from this Mill. How many times have you as a player looked at something like Balancing Act or Geeba and called it a giant pile of crap? As these two decks (among hundreds) show, its really hard to get a feel for what works just by looking at it. Yet, time after time, I see someone post a deck thats not based on the primers and endure months of ridicule ("YouR Dek is AsS!?") and foolish suggestions ("You should add Red so you can use Mages Contest to protect your combo") from people who are doing just that.

Before Parfait and MonoBlue were worshipped slavishly here on BD they both suffered this fate. Does anyone else remember how the Mill was sure Keeper would win ToC1? And how MikePhoen took MonoBlue (did it have Ophidians, Impulses, Kegs?), a deck that a lot of people dismissed as one-dimensional, all the way? Conventional wisdom turned on its ear. As it will be every now and then.

The point here is that the pundits can be wrong. Frankly, they often are. Probably because they think they have "a few things figured out" and they aren't much interested in discussing new ideas.

Keep an open mind. Play the deck/card in question before you comment. Dont be a jerk when unleashing your superior insights. Etc. Rules for a better Mill. :-/


By Anxiety (Anxiety) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 10:51 pm:

*Applauds CF's sentiment*

-Anxiety


By jpmeyer, keeper of ur mom (Jpmeyer) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 12:48 am:

Yeah this banning Smmenen business is getting pretty gay


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 01:43 am:

Hey, i have argued with the dude on a few occasions, and i certainly dont share many of his views, but thats really not a reason to treat him like Negator. Even if his opinions may seem unpopular, you cant just delete everything he posts. The decks that i post are usually not optimal and often kinda lame but i cant remember the last time one of my threads was arbitrarly deleted.


By Nikodemus (Nikodemus) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:21 am:

Redman - That was my point, that the Primers are not all there is. But when someone posts a deck with some new ideas incorporated, or with a different slant, they get barraged with "read the primer" advice.


By Gnu, the Lightbringer (Gnu) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:54 am:

"Yeah this banning Smmenen business is getting pretty gay"

Sad to hear if that's true, looks like this board is falling apart -/


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:35 am:

The board isnt fallign apart, its just fighting an uphill battle. Lets grow up here, I too have had differences with Smmenen, but damn thats low. I guess that goes to show how little someones world is to take pleasure in something like this.

Spin13, you said it best. Hopefully whoever aquires BD will do good things to the site.


By DefiantVanguardVs.PhyrexianInvasion (Puschkin) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:39 am:

I hope that Legend and Negator are to poor for buying BD ...


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 11:19 am:

David Bruce:

The 3 color keeper comment, was that refering to me? When I told the tradgic tale of Azrehi loosing his sanity? on the OSE or wOE post?

If so, I really appologize, it was in sheer fun, and thought that if anyone would have been offended it would have been Az.

I would not want to offend him either, but he, i think, would know more that I was joking.

If I have offended ANYONE, I appologize for it, even any anti Negator posts were inappropriate and immature of me as well.

I would really hate to think that anyone would get inangered by my jokes.

-Freddie


By Meridian (Meridian) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 12:11 pm:

word


By Dandan (Dandan) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 01:23 pm:

This is the only place left to talk about Type I.

Think about it.

Whatever the faults, stay and write. Spread new ideas. New cards from the latest expansions. New uses for old cards. New strategies. Hell, even post and say the new stuff is no good and why the old stuff is better. Get slagged off. Have the occasional good post moved to casual or rumours for no good reason. Live with it. Get a life. Come back and play some more.

Let's not say goodbye to the last Dojo.


By Green Knight (Greenknight) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:19 pm:

Dandan I am with you, long live type one, keep BD alive!


By David Bruce (Bruce) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:40 pm:

Freddie--

It could have been, I'd have to go dig out the thread to tell, for sure, and what's the point in doing that much research just to point the finger and yell, which is just pointless. But, I appreciate the apology, and glad to hear it was in fun. It -was- funny, but the more I read, the more I thought it was just flame. But, I'm glad it wasn't. It was just building on all the flames against people trying to build a Keeper/The Deck style deck without the power and the duals and so on, a predicament I find myself in, as well.

But, anyway, I wanted to let everyone know Oscar wrote me and offered to patch things up, so I'm thinking he's willing to bridge the gap to keep things going. Positive steps, y'all, :)

Long live Type 1 is right, :)


By Mordraid (Mordraid) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:09 pm:

i personally think that this site is going down. Every now and then good posts are being deleted. Why??? just because they aren't a copy or similar to an already existing deck.

I've posted a deck a while ago on the type1 mill (named alkatraz) and got deleted for no reason. That was not a randon picking of cards and stuff. That deck won two tourney at CTM already (60 peoples average). So why it got deleted ? because the mods ( to be polite and not to say suk&?%) didn't want to look at it seriously and play it.

It's pretty sad that these kind of things happens because this forum would be great.

And by the way... Keeper is dead baby, i almost play only type1 and never ever saw a keeper deck winning it all. Yes it wins pretty often but it can loose to an untuned deck it was not ready for.

So with that in mind i sugest to everyone to post all shitty decks. So the mods won't have the time to delete all of them and they'll go nuts !!

mordraid


By White Knight (White_Knight) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:38 pm:

Dandan and GreenKnight: as much as we ALL love BD and would like to see the site do well, what's really happening is that it's going downhill, and now either there's a big change on the way things are oriented, or... the site's over.

"Whatever the faults, stay and write. (...) Live with it. Get a life. Come back and play some more."

Conforming ourselves with a situation that's going from bad to worse isn't going to help at all...


By Green Knight (Greenknight) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:39 pm:

Mondraid settle down. I have had posts deleted before, if your post just sits there and no one posts on it, it becomes a dead post after a time and must be deleted. How is posting "all shitty decks" going to help make this forum better? Think about it.


By Green Knight (Greenknight) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:42 pm:

White Knight I agree it is up to "we the people" to make things better. I am hopping for a big change for the better and will do what I can to make that happen. I would hate for BD to die off like type one has in so many places already.


By Schmakt (Schmakt) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 03:57 pm:

I concur... if BD closed down, that would pretty much be the end of Magic for me. again. Only reason I got back in (after having quit for 3 years) was b/c I stumbled across this site after having accidentally bought a few Beta Counterspells. (don't ask....) My area is a bunch of little kids who would rather have 4 Urza's Rage than a set of Moxen... BD is really the only place where a lot of T1 players can learn anything new about the game at all. If some policies need to be changed or procedures implemented to make things better here, then let's do it. I'd be willing to work around whatever new rules/posting policies make sense as long as the site can keep going...


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 04:01 pm:

Pushkin - don't you dare give them ideas. :( (By the way, did you get my email?)


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 06:30 pm:

I swear, half of you spend 30% of your time talking about magic (most of you badly) and 70% of the time spent on this site is devote to bitching about how shitty the site or how unfair Rakso is.

For the record I don't agree with Smmenen's post being altered and deleted either. It didn't deserve it and I hope Rakso puts things back the way they were originally. Once he stops complaining about BD like a madman in private email I'll harass him to right things.

Look, Rakso and Smmenen have a history. This time Rakso let his personal distaste for someone get in the way of his impartial mod mindset. He's in the wrong, but christ, he made a mistake. He does a fine job in general and devotes a lot of time to the site (without pay). If I was Rakso, I'd tell every last one of you to go fuck yourselves and try modding this site full of whiney motherfuckers for free your own damn selves.

In fact the first person I'd tell to go suck a dick is Matt the Great (so, Matt: go suck a dick). The fact that you make a two-line reply (usually snotty) to someone's deck every once in awhile does not qualify you jump all over Rakso _every single time_ there is an opportunity to do so.

The people on this site are the worst example of herd mentality I've ever seen. Every single time there is a "Rakso sucks" post (valid or not) twelve billion people jump on the bandwagon and feel the need to express themselves. I look down the list of names and see CF, JP, and some others, but then I read some (most?) of these names and say, "WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU PEOPLE?" Sometimes that is meant figuratively, as in "Who the fuck do you think you are?" or "Who the fuck are you to complain?" because these people are non-contributing or barely contributing members of this site, but in many cases I really havne't a clue who these people are. If you're that new you do not have a clue of the histoty of this place and it's older members--in which case clam the hell up.

This is why, when _I_ have a problem I email Rakso directly first to see what happens. CF didn't do anything wrong, but he should have known that the WRONG group of people would respond. Something about empty barrels making the most noise comes to mind.

So in conclusion: if you want to bitch, FINE, but make sure you've contributed something to his site first. Establish yourself as someone who givs the total newbies long, detailed deck help in a friendly manner or write a primer if you think you can.

Fear the day that Rakso leaves mod duties at this site. He's about all that keeps me from going off on people that richly deserve it.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 06:33 pm:

Oh yeah, and if Rakso is such an unfair prick, why are there 30,000 "Rakso is an unfair prick" posts up on the mill at any given moment. Why isn't this thread nuked by now?


By jpmeyer, lord of wieners (Jpmeyer) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 06:38 pm:

Sweet Potatoe Pie

Engine (15)
4 Academy Rector
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Replenish
3 Oath of Druids

Search and Draw (5)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Holistic Wisdom

Control (13)
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Overgrown Estate
1 Peace of Mind
1 Moat
1 The Abyss
1 Story Circle
1 Karmic Justice
1 Ivory Mask
2 Duress
1 Balance
1 Mind Twist

Mana (27)
4 City of Brass
4 Savannah
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

SB:
1 Choke
2 Duress
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Aura of Silence
2 Compost
1 CoP: Black
1 CoP: Red
1 Cleansing Meditation
1 Aura Fracture
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Oath of Druids
1 Multani's Presence
1 Spirit of the Night


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 06:40 pm:

Fleshrever.dec

4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
3 Fleshreaver
4 Negator
4 Hyppie

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
1 Demonic
1 Consult
1 Yawgwill

15 Swamps
1 Jet
1 Lotus
1 Strip
4 Wasteland


By David Bruce (Bruce) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 07:03 pm:

D'Avanzo--

I don't know you, but I know you're one of the older crowd, here, and by your own post, define to some degree the ruling/influential parties of this site.

Before I reply, I'll accept your terms of definition and list my own accomplishments:

"If you're that new you do not have a clue of the histoty of this place and it's older members--in which case clam the hell up."

I do, I don't post until I have something to say. Ergo, my personal ban on clogging the arteries of this site seems to have put myself in the "herd," and whatever I might post anyway is part of the 30%, and crap anyway. By your definitions, of course.

"This is why, when _I_ have a problem I email Rakso directly first to see what happens."

Actually, HE emailed ME and we were discussing things just fine until your little outburst.

"Establish yourself as someone who givs the total newbies long, detailed deck help in a friendly manner or write a primer if you think you can."

See my article today on Star City and ask any of the twenty people that emailed me about it if I do so, if you doubt it.

Look, I know I'm not part of the in crowd. Who cares. I attend WEEKLY Type 1 tourneys and I felt that BD could benefit from the data and discussion. However, I didn't post them as few of the decks I face are Tier 1, and I felt (and still feel) that to post anything less than Tier 1 is simply inviting flames. THAT is what I'm talking about, here. I'm talking about a built-up mentality, here, that prevents people from posting simply because there will be 10 flames by the Old School Crowd to the 2-3 'cool data' posts from the newbies. Newbies aren't posting! That's the problem! We need fresh ideas or what's the point of having this forum public???

I want to know if the Old School Crowd here wants ALL data and ideas pertaining to Type 1, with a POLITE REQUEST that the persons posting please post the most thought-out, reasoning posts they can...or does the Old School Crowd simply want EVERYONE without 5+ years experience with Tier 1 Type 1 and a keen mind to shut up and quit posting?

The conundrum you face here is that YOU'RE NOT PAYING ANYONE! If you want top tier product, YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT OR HOPE SOMEONE DONATES IT! You CANNOT demand it. You can approach these people, newbies and pros alike, with an open mind, a considerate attitude, some social grace and politeness, or you can turn this site into a ghost site. IT'S YOUR CHOICE.


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 07:03 pm:

"...because these people are non-contributing or barely contributing members of this site."

Not contributing? Because they lack the ability to contribute significantly (like me, I have no illusuons), or because the vicious tone of this place in general as exemplifed by the your post as much as anything Rakso ever did or didn't do doesn't seem to offer little incentive for them to flush their ideas and innovations down the filth-encrusted toilet of mindless flame-enforced primer mafia conformity and is BD these days?

Maybe you have a big temper and are considered hot shit around here and that's supposed to make you beyond reproach, but as somebody with nothing to lose by pointing out such, you're clearly part of the problem.

Feel free to dispute that with your rapier wit (AKA the "find/replace" function and the f-word) if you like, but flaming me isn't going to help anybody's case.


By Gizzard (Gizzard) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 07:49 pm:

Drifting away from the topic at hand ... unless all this chatter really is about personalities. Which I suppose it ultimately is.

> Sometimes that is meant figuratively, as in "Who
> the fuck do you think you are?" or "Who the
> fuck are you to complain?" because these people
> are non-contributing or barely contributing
> members of this site, but in many cases I
> really havne't a clue who these people are. If
> you're that new you do not have a clue of the
> histoty of this place and it's older members--
> in which case clam the hell up.

Matt, you do realize that there are a lot of people who read these boards and never comment just because of diatribes like this?

Over my years playing T1 magic I've talked with players from different parts of the country, I usually put in a pitch for BD if I get the chance. Do you know what sort of reaction I've been getting for the last year? People roll their eyes and shake their heads. Then they laugh and say, "Those guys there, they think they're the entire lifeblood of T1. It gets old watching the same two people talk about their NG Keeper decks and rip on everyone else." (Just in case this story is too subtle Matt, they are talking about you. People all over the country know you only by the short-tempered, obsencity riddled posts you have made here on BD. Scary thought, no?) Anyway, what can I say about that? "Aw its not that bad," I say. "At least those guys play serious T1, they may come across as a big jerks, but the Canadian and European players are cool. They post what they play and its not just about rubbing their egos on everyone else."

Anyway, my point is, if you are wondering "who the fuck these people are", they are the same people who have been biting their tongues for the last year because they dont want to hear chatter back from you and your posse. If you haven't heard from them before, its partly your own doing.


By There Can Be Only One (Fbi) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 07:52 pm:

Wow, I thought only I could piss Matt D off like that. I feel so...so...jilted :( And I wasn't even the first person he told to suck dick

I guess BD really is going to hell

land grant in keeper 4 L


By David Bruce (Bruce) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:18 pm:

Well, I had hoped that Matt D would be provoked into actually answering my query, but I guess it's not going to happen.

Matt D was put to the sword, asked what exactly he wants for BD, what he feels all the Old School Posse wants for BD. His response...Nothing. If that's really what he wants for the site, then why should we even consider him a contributing member, at this point?

T1 4 Life, y'all.


By jpmeyer, lord of wieners (Jpmeyer) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:31 pm:

Matt's not responding to your replies cause he isn't home right now :-P


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:38 pm:

Gizzard, the last time somebody challenged Neutral Ground's general level of competition on these mills, they got stomped right in the face. So maybe they know what they're talking about. But I digress.

The sad part is, CF is one of the few newer people on this mill that I respect. Most of the n00bs either don't believe us when we do testing of their decks and find out they suck (bad Stompy, Cow Pie.dec, etc.) or don't like it when we report this.

There simply aren't enough medium-level players to post what the 'Paragons' (for the record: Rakso, Meridian, SliverKing, Triple S, Carl Devos, Matt, Azhrei, JP, and Nameless) have to say, since they aren't willing to do it in a manner people will respect. Despite what people think, there really is a tiered system going on here and there's not many in my tier; those that are willing to post on the same deck twelve billion times.

The paragons are still here only for you, not for themselves... they simply don't feel that the board has anything to offer them anymore besides a sense of community. So show some respect or leave it to those who will.


By Put Nicotine in Milk (Fbi) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:45 pm:

The "Paragons"? Wasn't that a for shit Jim Carey film?


By David Bruce (Bruce) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:02 pm:

JP--

Ah, thanks. So, he fires off a 'shut up you whiners' and bolts? I'm trying, very hard, not to lose my temper at this situation, but it's getting difficult.

Alright, none of this is productive. On the one hand, we have a group of people, let's call them newbies. These newbies are reluctant to post decklists, tournament results or theory on the basis that the opposing group on BD will simply flame them out of hand, because they're learning the ropes of what's already established and may have different opinions.

On the other hand, we have another group, who holds ultimate control of site posting and maintenance. We'll call them the veterans. The veterans feel that the newbies are wasting everyone's time and precious attention spans by posting 'crap.' I.e., they do not respect, out of hand, what is being posted, whether it is drivel or not.

Therefore, we have one body, somewhat inexperienced or not as knowledgeable, but willing to learn. On the other, we have a group upset about the lack of posting, but actually creating an antagonistic environment where posting is not encouraged.

Therefore, ergo, and proceeding logically from, we see that both sides could use some refinement. And, yet, what we keep seeing is one group, or at least Redman and myself and some others, more than willing to avoid posting drivel and help others avoid doing it, but we are thwarted before we start by the veterans' flashing attitude.

This may actually be a simple generation gap, as loathe as I am to cite such socialogical pat answers.

If so, then I repeat, close BD to outsiders, shut out the newbies. Otherwise, stop flaming them. Correct them, give them positive feedback, constructive criticism, where you can. Otherwise, don't waste your time and theirs on their posts. Inactive posts are deleted, right? So, let the useless posts get deleted, if they annoy you so much.


By MattB (Mattb) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:06 pm:

Though Matt D's method of delivery is questionable, his basic message is solid. The fact is, Rakso, by and large, does an awesome job, for very little benefit.

Hopefully, CF will come back, Rakso will exercise slightly better judgement in deleting posts, and we can get back to having an interesting mill.


By David Bruce (Bruce) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:16 pm:

MattB--

The issue I'm arguing for/against isn't Rakso, it has nothing to do with him, at this point, really. I'm arguing about the attitudes towards posts on this forum.


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:31 pm:


Quote:

In fact the first person I'd tell to go suck a dick is Matt the Great (so, Matt: go suck a dick). The fact that you make a two-line reply (usually snotty) to someone's deck every once in awhile does not qualify you jump all over Rakso _every single time_ there is an opportunity to do so.




Wow, I don't think anything I've said has been misinterpreted so wrongly in some time. Forgive my obliqueness, but I was congratulating CF for actually showing some spine and making a stand for something he believes in. If somehow out of that you dredged somehting resembling me "jumping all over Rakso" then that's your problem.

Also, please forgive my not spouting off uninformed opinions on every topic just to make a name for myself. I'm fully aware that I'm not qualified to be giving advice on every topic that comes through here, so I _don't_, instead posting only when I'm fairly sure that what I have to say bears merit. But if you'd rather have me pollute this board with ignorance, just say the word. Stupid people do it all the time, how hard can it be?


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:33 pm:

"but I was congratulating CF for actually showing some spine and making a stand for something he believes in* "

*Addendum: as opposed to the masses who whine and complain but never actually muster up the effort or will power to try and effect changes.


By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:36 pm:


Quote:

Ah, thanks. So, he fires off a 'shut up you whiners' and bolts? I'm trying, very hard, not to lose my temper at this situation, but it's getting difficult.




Its not like he lives here. Some people venture into the sunlight and DONT disintegrate.


By David Bruce (Bruce) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:43 pm:

Zherbus--

Shhhhh! You're going to give my enemies ideas...


By Will, the Walking Dude (Walking) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:46 pm:

By Matt the Great (Matt)
"
Also, please forgive my not spouting off uninformed opinions on every topic just to make a name for myself. I'm fully aware that I'm not qualified to be giving advice on every topic that comes through here, so I _don't_, instead posting only when I'm fairly sure that what I have to say bears merit. But if you'd rather have me pollute this board with ignorance, just say the word. Stupid people do it all the time, how hard can it be?
"

I’ve been on BD for several years. I know there are a lot of threads I read and don’t respond to because I don’t feel qualified. (I have never played keeper or any fully powdered control deck) But I also know there are lots of threads that I am qualified to respond to but don’t. There have been decks posted by newbies where I could see why the deck was bad but didn’t post my reasons because I either thought someone else would do it or just because I know people often get mad at anyone who critiques their decks. I know there are lots of other players out there who fall into this category because I see threads with bad decks and no messages.

A lot of the posting that needs to be done is criticism. It may be constructive criticism, but its still criticism. When mid level people don’t post and the long time community members have to pick up the slack they wind up making a lot of these posts. Consequently they appear like very critical people. If you want them to be less critical, be more critical yourself: it has to be done by someone. I know a lot of people out there are more qualified then their posting volume would indicate.


By David "The Earl Of" Bruce (Bruce) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:47 pm:

Alright, y'all, this thread's getting ridiculously long.

Basically, let's just all agree to play in the same sandbox without drawing blood. I doubt Oscar's going to be deleting anymore touchy posts. As for the newbies, no more labeling your deck "3 Color Keeper." Heh. Sorry, couldn't resist.


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:06 pm:

"If you want them to be less critical, be more critical yourself"

I post whenever I:
1) feel that I know what I'm talking about, and
2) what I could say hasn't already been mentioned by someone else

Please don't corral me into the group of people that are complaining about elitism, because I'm not one of them. I'm just responding to someone lambasting me for my infrequent posting habits.


By Rebel428 (Rebel428) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:09 pm:

I don't have too much time, so I'll get straight to the point.

In short, without actions of Rakso (and AFAIK K-run) towards the posts over here, this site wouldn't be dissimilar to the MTGNews forum with people arguing that Pernicious Deed is better than Powder Keg in Keeper. They keep good, worthwhile discussions around and pointless, unexplained, and often just plain unintelligent stuff out.


By Tracer Bullet, Voice of Reason (Tracer) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:21 pm:

I really have to post my support for our Librarian here. Had I gotten to my computer sooner, I would have said almost exactly what MattD said.

First and foremost, if you have a problem with the way the mills are being run, SEND AN E-MAIL!! The only way to get the Mods to want to listen is if you bring it up with them directly. More often than not (and this is where being a BD frequenter shows), posts like this end up degenerating into long discussions about who's a bigger dick, and who's being an ass most.

On the issue of newer helping old: it is the responsibility of people like myself, Redman, and Will to start answering the more menial questions. Why? If we don't, this site will continue to go down the toilet. Matt, and Az, and JP have all become disinterested in reanswering the same damned questions all the time (as well they should). I know when I first came to BD (around a year ago), I made my share of stupid mistakes, and some of the older guys were around to show me what I had done wrong, and WHY it was wrong. I personally am going to make an attempt to help out where I can.

If you're one of the newer guys, feel free to post. If some of the older guys tell you you're wrong, LISTEN. Seriously, the only reason somebody is going to tell you their wrong is either A: they're stupid, or B: They know what they're talking about. There's a reason Matt, Az, and all the others have been long respected, and I'm willing to bet if you tried some of the things they say, you'll be impressed with the results. If not, say why you weren't. It's not a difficult process.

Most importantly, just have a little courtesy (Even older guys; I know some people are being stupid, but if you sit and insult them, everybody looks like an ass). Keep an open mind. None of us are right about everything.

A little bit of common sense will go a long way to reinvigorate these boards.


By Stephen Menendian (Smmenen) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:57 pm:

Speaking of Herd mentality....

Steve


By AHappyClown (Clown) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 11:04 pm:

Well, I for one, rarely post about anything because:

a)Whenever I see a post by a newbie about a deck that I have experience with(or something similar) and that I feel I'm qualified to comment on, someone has always beaten me to it.

and/or

b)The deck is so untuned and terrible that if I post anything, it'll end up sounding like "yer deck is complete and utter shite and I don't want to spend an hour typing the primer on yer thread".

But I probably should start contributing more, which I will do. I just feel as though I shouldn't contribute suboptimal decklists that haven't been tested. I also can't seem to figure out apprentice, so I can't test optimal decklists except in real life. Which leaves me with maybe Parfait.

It's a vicious cycle.

But I'll start contributing some tourney reports and quality content, just to try and give something back. Been lurking too much, and I feel guilty now. Damn you all...makin' me feel guilty an' stuff...


By Triple S (Sssmwc) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:01 am:

BD is good for entertainment value but people take this shit way too serious. The only time you'll see me post is in reference to a deck I play (ie Funker, 3/2, Void) in real life. The constant bitching about Rakso and his job is really ridiculous...do you want this forum to be as shitty as the MTGnews Mill or the StarCity t1 mill? To be serious, any good strategy really I come across comes from those on a private mailing list.


By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:29 am:

Private mailing lists 4 L.

P.S. I love you all. You crack me up like you'd not believe.


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 01:03 am:

Yeah Az, its funny for you because you dont need BD, a lot of us have no other venue to discuss strategy with competent T1 players. For people like me, the present state of BD is one of great concern and i do not take it lightly.


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 01:15 am:

I think I hear that Herd mentality Calling...


By Tracer Bullet, Voice of Reason (Tracer) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 01:18 am:

Wow.

I didn't know they still made jokes that bad...... ;)


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 01:36 am:


Quote:

Yeah Az, its funny for you because you dont need BD, a lot of us have no other venue to discuss strategy with competent T1 players. For people like me, the present state of BD is one of great concern and i do not take it lightly.



You don't need BD?

Okay, I've had it with all the crap around here.

Someone who's been here a bit longer than I have doesn't need BD anymore and doesn't care, eh?

History lesson.

In 1997-1998, BD was a tight little community with a lot of funny people, give or take a few like Josh Lytle and this Ihsan wacko.

In 1999, we were growing and gained Matt D'Avanzo, JP Meyer, and I think a few others like ORRGG and Mikephoen. Not sure if Gizzard and company were somewhere in 1998 and not '99.

The big complaint at this time, after I took over from Elrohir, after the first primers went up and after BD got a higher profile, the big complaint was an increasing signal to noise ratio. A lot of people were complaining that they, bluntly, wanted to strangle a lot of these new visitors.

Come about 2001, it's no longer about signal to noise. You now have a lot of "new visitors" posting about everything short of Arcane Denial, AND flaming or picking fights about it. We had to emphasize the difference between the Type I and the Beginner's Mills because a lot of the older people were getting turned off.

The complaints were loudest from the LAST batch of "new visitors" incidentally. The people complaining about being victimized were the people who wanted to "play whatever I want" and didn't want to "conform to the elite."

Come about 2002, guess why a lot of the people I remain in contact with no longer post decks on BD. Everything Matt, Azhrei or myself have goes up on Star City instead, and not even K-Run has been posting Parfait updates.

Hint: Might it have something to do with Beyond Dominia now being home to the biggest concentration of Type I retards on the Net, disguised by the presence of more normal people like CF and Redman?

When you think about it, oft-complained sites like MTGNews, Wizards and MOTL don't have the concentration of retardedness I'm talking about.

I'm talking about people who can't even flame intelligently THEN insist that the people they flame have to stay in BD to post decks they can use, because they need a venue to discuss Type I with people willing to hand them decklists.

Am I hitting any particular schlong here? Don't feel offended... if a webhost error hits in the next few days, then it won't be worth anything.

Are you now mentally counting the people who post, "Don't give me attitude, you xxx" or "F*** YOU, MORON!!!" or "That sucks, put Compost in the board against black (even if you don't have green)" etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, some people here behave as if they're more elite than elite, and don't even bring up your complaints about people like Azhrei and Matt who've helped so many people that they probably deserve to be able to lose their patience every so often (make that often, period).

While I don't subscribe to any tier system of visitors around here, whatever that means, I won't deny that there's a growing list of people I feel like strangling on a daily basis.

For example, I revoked Spevack's account just now. He posted a complaint post on the Type I Mill--which we all know isn't allowed--then reposted it under the all caps heading, "THIS WAS JUST DELETED!" He was also glorifying one Yan Margolin, the person responsible for forcing the mods to lock down parts of the forums.

But of course, we know the obnoxious retards I'm talking about couldn't care less.

They just want their venue to netdeck from.

So tell me if I care. I'm sure I don't anymore, and neither do the remaining mods.

So enjoy your little spats. Don't tell me what BD used to be like... I know what BD was like before you came here.


By Dandan (Dandan) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 01:37 am:

Private mailing list?

Do you remember mtg-strategy-l?

This site, warts and all, is so much better than ANYTHING else it isn't

Anyone who regularly reads this mill will see that I post regularly, the 'elite' usually disagrees. My posts are regularly deleted (some of them with hindsight should have been deleted).
Some of my ideas are used by others and I get a warm fuzzing feeling inside (Vandals in Sligh for example). I post because I want to share my ideas and because I want the opinion of more experienced players, EVEN IF that opinion is that my idea sucks.

This mill is intimidating for new posters, you need a thick skin to post knowing that a negative responce is likely. To be fair, most of the new ideas prove to be suboptimal after a lot of testing and analysis. We have seen this mill when it was swamped with poor decklists, we have seen it overmoderated, we are seeing it going downhill and IF WE DO NOTHING, NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

(Completely offtopic rant coming up, skip if you don't like that sort of thing)

I live in a former communist country (Slovakia). It is sad how many people sit around waiting for someone else (the government, European Union, NATO) to make their life better. Some of us here are doing the same thing. Look in the mirror, accept your shame of the blame, accept your share of the responsibility. (Don't say 'We, the people' it's too Hollywood) Accept the fact that things will only get better for YOU when YOU make them better. Make this list what YOU want.

At worst, the casual mill will be more interesting!


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 01:42 am:

Oh and before you reply with the first expletive that rolls off your tongue, do a little scroll downwards and check:

a) Who are the people who "help" a newbie with a slightly unfocused deck, usually with half a dozen consecutive posts of one-liners that simply translate to, "You suck"

b) Who are the people who comment on some new twist or unorthodox idea that can't be dismissed as obvious idiocy.

c) Who are the people who post something questionable like insisting on Standstill in a Draw-Goish deck with no early threats and just finishers, then flame the people who ask them to justify it or refute a specific criticism.

I don't know... K-Run and I can moderate, but as much as we'd love to, I don't think we can control manners.


By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 01:55 am:

Elitist pigs! How dare you call me normal!


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 02:01 am:

Hmmm... I meant personality-wise. :p


By arrgo 4L (Perio) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 02:43 am:


Quote:

Am I hitting any particular schlong here?




this has got to be the best one-liner out of this entire thread.


By jpmeyer, lord of wieners (Jpmeyer) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 02:49 am:

Internet flame wars 4L


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:20 am:

cock-punching 4L


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 04:42 am:

In no particular order:

Firstly, sorry to Bruce and any others that I didn't stay by a computer ALL DAY LONG to respond to every person that has some opinion, half-assed or informed, BUT I had a date. Hot 22 year-old redheaded chic > arguing with people over the internet. This is a universal constant.

Secondly, Other-Matt: I wasn't critical of your infrequent posting habits. I was critical of your consistent Rakso-bashing. He tries his absolute best. He may not succeed (I mean he's human, and he has a nasty drinking problem) all the time, but no one has ever been more committed to making and/or keeping BD a great place. Secondly, if you're going to be CF's cheerleader for speaking his mind, I think you owed me a parade, a cake, and some fireworks.

Thirdly, I post some general criticism and people suddenly start offering defense on their behalf. Man alive! Sometimes you guys are like the little kids that I teach karate. An instructor will say, "Everyone should have their front knee bent until it covers their toes!" and some kid will say, "Sir, my front knee IS bent!" Well, he must not be talking to you then! On the flip side, I'm sure some others are leaping to their own defense because, for whatever reason, they think what I said does apply to them.

Fourthly, I would much prefer to quietly post deck help, new decks, and occasional foolishness. However I am in the process of picking up Azhrei's slack. He's barely around now and an occasional angry tirade is needed.

Fifthly, my posts aren't profanity-filled. They are, however, sometimes profanity-flavored. The fact is that curses are words and all words have their place in the English language. Right now that profanity is emphasizing my disgust and irritability. I don't use profanity all the time, thus you notice the difference in tone. See how this works? St. Thomas Aquinas once said that dirt is "nothing but matter in the wrong place." Therefore something that is "dirty" (like language) is really just out of place as opposed to being objectively wrong. If an angry rant about people's herd mentality and preference to whine instead of working to make something better is not the proper place for a few well-placed expletives, I don't know where is.

Sixthly, people online might think of me as rude? Oh no! Allow me to hang my head in shame as I will never be able to live with the knowledge that some random people I don't know will occasionally IM each other and say, "Damn that Librarian guy on BD is a jerk." This is the Internet and the only thing it has in common with real life is that I never really cared what anyone thinks of me.

To date I have never received a negative email (well, Negator's occasional hate mail aside) saying how rude I am, but plenty of people apparently feel fine about asking for decklists or random bits of advice (as well they should).

Seventhly, I love the way a whole bunch of people who no one knows are suddenly popping up to be like, "Well, I don't normally post and etc., etc.". Well shoot, you posted now to explain why you don't post, so your record of inactivity is broken. You might as well keep it up by offering a newbie a little friendly deck help or even post something you've been playing at the last few tourneys.

Eighthly, I LOVE the way people continually bring up nonsense like "Man, you NGers /Paragons/old-time BDers/etc. think your so good, etc.,” or (my favorite), “All you guys do is talk about deck X, Y, and Z, but I play real type I and those decks all die to my janky pile with Arcane Denial. That horrible Rakso just deletes them without even bothering to playtest them, blah, blah!” It seems either A) none of you actually read what other people write before deciding what you are going to respond with, or B) having no response you hope that crying elitism will suffice for your not being in the right. I really don’t take nearly as much offense to the elitism BS as others, since the people that do complain about it are, frankly, horrible incompetents. I just hope that the people on this board with at least one grain of sense realize, as they sift through the messages on this board, none of the so-called elitist snobs (mostly Az’s Paragon’s list) has ever tooted their own horn in any way. In truth the most arrogant people here are those that were the previous crop of newbies. Oh, and for the record, if you think your brilliant, innovative deck was mistaken for a pile by the snobby no-nothing elitists that only understand “dead” (wow, that person is some schmuck!) decks like Keeper, I say go to BD Chat, find JP or Meridian (or maybe me, but I’m almost never on now), play ten matches against them, and then post the logs here.

Ninthly, Yamo: run-on sentences are not tech. When you finally discover the buttons on your keyboard that produce periods and commas, I'll talk to you.

Tenthly, I think the vast majority of people here take things way too seriously. This is a forum for a discussion about a geek card game and nothing more. Before I felt the need to intrude on this post it was already a mile long with pathetic soap opera drama. In short, everyone needs to take regular breaks, go out into the sunlight, frolic a bit, and then come back as a fresh slate. This is how I’ve managed to stay here when so many other regs have posted these overly-dramatic “I am hereby leaving!” messages.

The eleventh point: some of you don’t take this site seriously enough. This may just be a dumb website devoted to a silly game, but it has taken a lot of effort to improve and maintain. Before you trash it or advise people to spam it into the ground (I hope Mordraid gets sitebanned) think about how much effort it’s taken to become as good as it has (feel free to look at MTG News for a comparison) and perhaps think about the number of real-life friendships that have started here. Why don’t you go to the beach and smash some little kids’ sandcastles instead and leave BD alone if you arne’t willing to make it better?

Lastly, the question was posed to me: what would I like to see happen or what would my proposed plan for Beyond Dominia be? You know what? I cannot think of a worthier topic than that to devote a new thread to.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 04:44 am:

>>Am I hitting any particular schlong here?

Oh God--just when I thought he was getting better with his idioms.


By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 07:47 am:

"Come about 2002, guess why a lot of the people I remain in contact with no longer post decks on BD. Everything Matt, Azhrei or myself have goes up on Star City instead, and not even K-Run has been posting Parfait updates."

TA 4 L

"Fourthly, I would much prefer to quietly post deck help, new decks, and occasional foolishness. However I am in the process of picking up Azhrei's slack. He's barely around now and an occasional angry tirade is needed."

Some of us have finals. Secondly, it has long been my desire to be like BD's phantom of the opera. When you least expect it... wham, noose!


By Triple S (Sssmwc) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 09:41 am:

Cute Redsheads are infinitely better than Magic.

For those who think all new ideas proposed here are unilaterally shot down and flamed, I give one example: Funker. When I first constructed Funker it was a steaming pile of crap that folded like a tent vs any control or combo but went thru aggro like bad Thai food. Thanks to the efforts of myself and the more senior people on BD (Az, Matt D, JP) the deck is now solid tier 2. Not all new ideas are bad and shot down, most of you just don't bother to listen to the criticism and take it for the useful feedback it is intended to be.


By Anxiety (Anxiety) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 09:56 am:

"Ninthly, Yamo: run-on sentences are not tech. When you finally discover the buttons on your keyboard that produce periods and commas, I'll talk to you."


Funny. Arrogant, but funny.

-Anxiety


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 10:17 am:

Wow.

At the risk of sounding like a fucking brown nosing suck ass...

Let me just say that I do appreciate what Rakso has done for BD and for T1 in general.

Rakso and I did not get off on the best foot in the begining, but no matter what I will always give him his props. Before cutting into this guy, each of you should take a moment, look around... he has done allot for this site, and for T1.

In short, cut this guy some slack ad respect him.

If you still feel that he is being unfair, you can email or post politely 9likr CF did at the start of this Post)

-------

Same with Matt D' (see how I abbreviated his last name, that is so I do not mispell it). Matt D' (abreviating is tech) i respect this guy allot! He should be listened to.

His word is not "the last word" but his advise will usually (vast majority of the time) hold with them allot of wisdom.

-------

The newer players (all players for that matter) IMO should continue to think of rogue deck Ideas... but refine them pre posting, and or give a disclaimer about the untested nature of it.

If it has merrit, Rakso / K-Run will usually give some lee-way with it.

I was gone for a bit, so i do NOT know what all happened with Smmemen (msp?) post for mono blue.

I get the idea of the over all jist, but do not know the actual card list he gave though.

It is possible that Rakso fucked up, and deleted something to hastily, or it could be that the deck was a pile, I do not know.

Please don't leave over it though. (any of you)

If you leave, so be it, but I hope it is for reasons that really matter, and not because of slight misunderstandings.

-Freddie


By BeBe, the Redeemer (Bebe) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 10:20 am:

Jeez. Here we go again. I've been a regular on BD from the get-go. And it seems that someone always has a complaint against something.

Well, all my decks are janky and yet I play in a high powered environment and actually win occasinally. So post my deck and critique it. Uhhh, no. I stopped posting decks on the
Type 1 mill and now I'm too competitive for casual and too loose for here. What a conundrum! I have no home.

I used to e-mail all the regulars here and got civil and incisive responses. It's been awhile since I actually needed to e-mail Rakso but when I have in the past he always responded and politely disagreed with me :).

The last time I posted a comment I was told I thought too much of myself and played a sub-optimal version of a deck so my test results were invalid. I get flammed here regularly. I'm thinking of leaving and selling my cards. The good thing is no one will care.

There was a time I could disagree with Azhrei and never got flammed - just mildly chastised for my seeming inability to understand the principles of the game.

When i started playing there was no Type 1. We played with all the cards and few restrictions. Ah those were the days.

I have been published numerous times on many sites and have had a few columns as well. Yet, I'm not an expert and have never claimed to be one. In fact, I no longer publish any articles. We test at the store regularly and have come up with some very solid deck ideas but why bother. New ideas get some very negative comments or worse, none at all.

Well, I got that all out. And BTW, the best Type 1 deck is Gay Fish. If you haven't played it you wouldn't know. :)


By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 10:50 am:

Not listening to people who write like this:

this is my opinion i think rakso sux and ur all elitst and here is my deck but it sux so itll prolly get dleteted

is NOT arrogance. It's a little known fact that if you want to be respected, you have to sound respectable.

Grammar MATTERS, as does being articulate.


By DefiantVanguardVs.PhyrexianInvasion (Puschkin) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 11:10 am:

Redman amd BeBe: My email isn´t working right now. And BeBe, don´t leave! You know, there´s always at least one person in the Casual Mill that answers to your posts ...


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 11:36 am:

Matt,

Cheap shots at my grammar (oh, horror of horrors!) does nothing to address the issues at hand. It's just lame. I expected no better, but I admit that I did at least hope. Alas.

Honestly, the best thing you could do at this point would be to actually not flame anyone who disagrees with you for a change. "SUK A DIK! LOL!", "UR GRAMMER IZ FUXX0RED!!!!1!!11", and similar lameness that has nothing to do with the rest of your posts just undermines whatever other points you're making by reinforcing the surly, know-it-all asshole stereotype that's the problem here to be begin with.

Oh, was that a run on sentence? So sorry.

Anyway, I've said my peace. Flame on, you 3DGY RENEGADE OF FUNK, you. It must be nice to be always right. I'm sure it makes you a real badasss and a hit with the ladies, as well. I'll just sit here and soak it up, because that's apparently the only thing that all but a dozen or so BDers are good for anyway according to you and your 1337 crew. Whatever.

Now I know what Legend would be like if he had his retarded megalomaniacal ego AND the skill to back it up. Slightly more impressive in a sense, but really no more likable overall.


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:11 pm:

Actually Lagend is really cool.

I know that some of you do not get along with him, even some of the people that I really respect on here do not get along with him.

Legend not been flamming anyone has he?

He is skilled, and although may have come off as arrogant in the past, is a really nice guy, I am being really serious.

Email disscusions I have been in with him have been very mature and level headed.

-Freddie


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:26 pm:


Quote:

There was a time I could disagree with Azhrei and never got flammed - just mildly chastised for my seeming inability to understand the principles of the game.



Sorry, old friend, but you have immunity to flaming that only a select few are accorded (ORRGG, Nevyn, a few others)?

Besides, you're older than the other people here, so you liven the place up without fear of getting flamed. ;)

Quote:

Now I know what Legend would be like if he had his retarded megalomaniacal ego AND the skill to back it up. Slightly more impressive in a sense, but really no more likable overall.



Hint: I know what Legend would be like if he had NO skill to back it up.


Quote:

Actually Lagend is really cool.

I know that some of you do not get along with him, even some of the people that I really respect on here do not get along with him.



Yes, Mr. Profanity, weren't you precisely the guy complaining to me about Legend and Negator sending you hate mail, hmmm?


By Stephen Menendian (Smmenen) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:35 pm:

I'm hesitant to reply to this thread for a number of reasons. But here are the two thoughts that most often pop in my mind. I could be way off base here, but here it goes anyway:

Quite frankly, the problem of BD isn't so called "elitism." It seems that people sensing elitism are merely sensing a symptom of a larger problem.

The two main problems I see are 1) rhetoric and 2) origionality.

By the first I mean that alot of people on BD, and people in general (myself included) come off very strong sometimes. We use rhetoric and idioms, and snide remarks, insults, etc instead of responding in a what I would consider a more appropriate way.

I feel a certain guilt for this actually. When I first came to BD I never saw Matt or Azhrei or anyone else for that matter post in a tone that could be construed in any way as anything other than constructive. But at some point I became really opinionated and then other poeple starting reacting to my opinions with equally opinionated posts and then all of a sudden a bunch of people are speaking in a much different tone and with a different attitude than what came before.

So in essence, I feel as if the tone of the place has gone in a direction that isn't conducive to the genearl purposes of this board. If I'm not being clear myself - ask me to clarify becuase I think this is an important point.

Secondly, there used to be a level of origional discourse. People were looking for good new archtypes. K-Run with the Parfait, Soso with U/B, JP with his Stacker and Patriot and others were pushing new ideas and concepts. The key thing here was that they tested these concepts and they were viable.

Type one has such a wide range of possibilities becuase the card pool is so wide. Granted a great many of these are negated simply by the presence of Keepers, but the key thing was that innovation was taking place and now I feel as if people post decks that they have never tried before or with only a loose concept and then expect other people to comment or finish the deck for them. That is a problem.

On the other side of the coin, the attitude changes may have made some better players leave (CF, Soso, where is K-Run) and have prevented new good players from coming ( why doesn't Mikey P or Chapin post?). A big sign of what I see as a core problem is the constant talk of Keeper and other core decks without more than a few scattered threads exploring some key new archtypes such as Miracle Grow and Mask.

As a result the bulk of BD's time is spent on one or two huge threads which usually seem to be bitch-fests like this one or flaming a controversial post like my big one on keeper.

I don't know if any of these problems are solvable or even if they constitute real problems, but they seem to be indicative of that to me.

Perhaps I'm part of the problem too. I'm one of those people who really has no interest in innovation or in building new archtypes. I only want to play mono blue everywhere I go.

I guess to boil it all down, I think both of the problems I described are intertwined and reinforce each other. Soso was pissed off after the big Weissman thread and CF is now pissed too. Well, I've said my mind. I'll just sit back now.

Stephen Menendian


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 02:54 pm:

Rakso: it was Negator that sent me the hate mail, and since then Legend and I have been Emailing allot, He's pretty cool.

When I emailed you I did ask WTF was up with Legend as well, but to my knowledge he has never directly insulted me, now Negator on the other hand...

Legend and I have a mutual understanding, He doesn't flame you or Matt D', out of respect for me, and I do not Flame Negator, out of respect for him.

Legend seems really cool.

I am not mr profanity, I have seen much worse on here.

-Freddie


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 02:55 pm:

I think that primary problem is just plain old politeness (or, more precisely, the lack thereof).

A whole lot of problems with this site's reputation could be circumvented if everyone would just agree to ratify, post, and follow two simple rules:

1. If you can't say anything helpful in a nice way, don't say anything at all.

2. Always explain yourself.

3. Give all posters the benefit of the doubt.

For example:

***If you can't say anything helpful in a nice way, don't say anything at all.***

This is simple. If you see a post, no matter HOW completely lame it may be (I don't care if the guy is trying to run four Trained Orggs in his Sligh), just be polite. If you can't be polite, hit the back button and move on without commenting. It's no hard.

Rememver that everyone was new once. When I started seven years ago with a bunch of extra commons and my friend Ryan (who knew no more about the game than I did), I didn't KNOW that my UNSTOPPABLE Regeneration/Orcish Veteran/Goblin Kites combo was a joke. Unless you popped out of the womb as a fully-formed T1 god, you were probably as sucky as it comes once, too, even if you dragged yourself up from the sorry state in short order later.

But the fact is that as much as it sound weird to admit it, we NEED these people. Type Screw doesn't just endure because it's what WotC promotes over anything else, it also endures because it doesn't kick newbies in the teeth for the unforgivable sin of not knowing everything before they've had a chance to learn it. T1 players do that. A lot.

You catch more flies with honey, people, so just take one for the team and keep the pithy "yer shit" comments to yourself next time someone posts something questionable or outright awful. At the very least, *politely* direct them to the Casual Mill.

We don't need some poor kid at a critical juncture in his development as a Magic player to decide that "T1 is a dead format full of snobs" and then go back to his shitty Psychatog deck because we were a little too smartass for out own good.

***Always explain yourself.***

"Keg > Disk"

"-4 Mishra's Factory
+4 Wasteland"

"Timetwister is crap here, drop it and add a Merchant Scroll."

This stuff is a problem, too. I'm as guilty of it as anyone. Basically, we can help people a lot more and encourage them to actually THINK instead of just follow (which eventually leads to...real practical innovation down the line) if we would just explain our advice better sometimes.

I heard someone complaining about the MTGnews T1 forums and the stupid discussions about stuff like why Pernicious Deed is better than Powder Keg for Keeper. Don't complain! Be glad! It may be stupid, but at least the discussion is taking place! At least someone reading that thread might get an idea WHY the Keg is usually better, instead of just being snapped at to memorize and recite "Keg > Deed" like a gibberish mantra with no meaning behind it. And from there, they might start to get a feeling for what else does and doesn't work in Keeper and why. And from there, what does and doesn't work in control in general.

Stupid questions are the start of all knowledge. If T1 is going to recruit and thrive, we NEED to be having those stupid discussions here. And if you're so advanced that the topic is inane or a waste of time for you? See rule one.

***Give all posters the benefit of the doubt.***

The primers are not the end-all and be-all of T1 knowedge. Most are old, virtually none address current metagame trends in any depth. They are a starting point, not a self-contained experience and not a straightjacket.

Bruce's Sligh is a good example. No Strips, four Factories. Is it bad? No. Believe it or not, there are environments (mostly aggro and janky scrub deck-dominated) where Waste targets are virtuallt nonexistant, making your Wastes crap and a Factory god. Bruce's deck was metagamed, plain and simple.

So let's give people the benefit of the doubt. Instead of blurting out...

"-4 Mishra's Factory
+4 Wasteland"

...or linking the primer like a robot, try ASKING about questionable card choices first and then withholding detailed advice in that area until you get an answer. Perhaps just:

"I've noticed that you're using Mishra's Factories instead of the Wastelands that are more common in a deck like this, as illustrated here in our Sligh primer *link*. Is there a particular reason for this? A local metagame choice, perhaps? Thanks."

Is that really so hard? I think not. Just let the player explain their choices and keep an open mind. Maybe it's a bad choice, and maybe it's a solid metagame plan or even *gasp* an innovation that previews the next generally accepted incarnation of the maindeck. Stranger things have happened.

So that's it basically. Respect the newbies, be patient and explain your advice well, and always give them the benefit of the doubt at first. That's it. It's basic good manners and makes for a good, friendly community where threads like this don't crop up.

Whatever you do, don't mock them with Inquest references and then delete their threads. Nobody who's not actively trolling deserves that. Even the most unskilled, yet serious and dedicated Magic player merits more respect from a healthy community.

Thanks for reading all that, everyone.


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

"A whole lot of problems with this site's reputation could be circumvented if everyone would just agree to ratify, post, and follow two simple rules:"

Dammit. It started out as two, but I added on as I went. :)


By Freddie Williams II (Freddie) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

Rock on, Stephen Menendian, I respect you, please email me your mono blue decklist, as I never saw it and am interested.

i***f@y***y.com

Thanks.

-Freddie, Mr. Profanity


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:12 pm:

I never got to critique it either. I'd like to. Mail away.

Yamo, who really likes run on sentences a lot, because they give the the opportunity to say a whole lot of stuff without having to do that little momentary pause to hold down the Shift key to capitalize the first word of the next sentence, because that's so totally, you know, like, annoying, and stuff, dude.


By BD l33t (Fbi) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:18 pm:

JUST USE CAPS LOCK

or never capitalize

or WRITE in GREEK, then NOBODY'LL know IF you CAPITALIZED or NOT


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:24 pm:

Greek rules.


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:27 pm:

By the way, in a stunning display of maturity, somebody decided that I needed a HILARIOUS (for about one second) gag email embedded my (funny for about 2.5 second) title, so send the listing to: o***y@i***l.com


By Gizzard (Gizzard) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:34 pm:

Smmenen:> But at some point I became really
Smmenen:> opinionated and then other poeple
Smmenen:> starting reacting to my opinions with
Smmenen:> equally opinionated posts and then all
Smmenen:> of a sudden a bunch of people are
Smmenen:> speaking in a much different tone and
Smmenen:> with a different attitude than what
Smmenen:> came before.

This was what I was trying to get at when I posted my last message. I wouldnt blame it on Smmenen, really it seemed Legend was the first to post "I am King, you all Suck!", but the arrogance that made Legend so endearing to us all has been picked up by the Mill in general over the last year. I'm not hugely surprised to get a couple negative reactions from random T1 players I mention BD to; I am surprised that the opinions are so uniform and shared by so many people in different areas. Relatedly, I'm not surprised when people who make a genuine contribution like CF decide to pull up their tent and leave, but I am really frustrated about it and want to do something constructive.

MattD:> Sixthly, people online might think of MattD:> me as rude? Oh no! Allow me to hang
MattD:> my head in shame as I will never be
MattD:> able to live with the knowledge that
MattD:> some random people I don't know...

Here's a rule that I use in life - if a bunch of people tell you that you are acting like a jerk then you are probably acting like a jerk. It doesnt matter how right you think you are, if lots of people say, "Matt acts like a big jerk" it means its time for some introspection.

The problem with me saying this is that its all been said 1000 times before. And it never really changes anything. "Keep an open mind. Play the deck/card before you comment. Be polite, even if you are really a lot smarter than the person you are replying to." :-/ Are these rules so hard?

Kirdape:>The paragons are still here only for
Kirdape:>you, not for themselves... they simply
Kirdape:> don't feel that the board has anything
Kirdape:>to offer them anymore besides a sense of
Kirdape:> community. So show some respect or
Kirdape:>leave it to those who will.

I enjoy the use of the word Paragon. I think that maybe this board needs a second set of parenthesis in our usernames, then the people who are extra-cool can have (Paragon) after them. Also, even if I had tried, I probably couldnt have come up with a word so ringingly pompous. Its perfect.

Now all we need is some rules for joining the Paragon club. And a secret handshake. :-/


By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:45 pm:

It *is* perfect. :) Rules are established.


By Schmakt (Schmakt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:47 pm:

hey Yamo, good post. (the long one) I think it made a lot of sense.


By BD l33t (Fbi) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:51 pm:

I thought a $10 door charge got you into the Paragon Club...


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 05:28 pm:

I'm afraid I cannot remember when or where I have "consistently Rakso-bashed." I fully cede that I may simply not be remembering such events because that would help my case, but honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. I certainly have never felt that our good Mr. Tan was doing a horrible job at either relating strategy OR moderating the site, and if that came across in one or more of my posts, I'm sorry.

As for your second point relating to me, there's more to earning my praise than speaking one's mind. A hundred people every day do just that on this board alone, but virtually none of them back up their words with action. Talk is cheap, and internet talk even more so. When CF actually made a stand, he showed an uncommon will, and for that I applaud him. When I see you perform something deserving* my laudation, you'll be the first to know.

As the entirety of my thoughts can be contained within the posts I have already left here, I shan't be returning. To all who would read my words: understand or no, I care not which.

*To head off the inevitable at the pass, each person is the sole arbiter of who does and does not recieve their respect. As such I reserve the right to dole out my adorations as I see fit.


By Matt the Great (Matt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 05:31 pm:

Actually, come to think of it, you HAVE gained my respect for simply putting up with a dozen or so people itching for an argument with you. That you still bother to engage everyone who takes issue with you is amazing. I know that I would have long ago given up, as I am apparently not a man of your patience.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 05:35 pm:

You know what, this isn't a mill about sitting in a circle, singing campfire songs, and crying in each other's arms about how our fathers were never proud of us. This is a mill for competitive (tournament) magic. There is nothing wrong with being polite to people, but the focus here is not (and should not be) on how nice we can be. It's about getting our decks into shape. If that's not what you are here for and you can't stand up to a little criticism every so often (I take my hits), then you are in the wrong mill. This is why there is a casual/beginner type I mill.

I'm not saying flame the guy with 4 Camels his deck, but I'm not, NOT going to get into a 10 page discussion on the merits and disadvantages of Camel in type I (then it would look like the WW primer). It's enough to say, "This is a weak card because it doesn't attack and banding just isn't a useful ability in a creature-light format. If you play in a creature-heavy area there are better cards (list some here) and if some freakazoid is running deserts you can use your Strip/Wastelands to kill them." This is the approach and tone I have always taken. The only time I act up is when someone (or multiple people in the case of this thread) is being a jerk or just plain not listening to reason ("NO! CAMEL IS BROKEN! BANDING ROCKS!").

The arrogance on this mill stems less from old regs than newbies and new regs who don't take well to constructive criticism. I have yet to see an old reg trash someone's deck from the start. Usually flames, if there are any, only come after the newbie or new reg acts like an arrogant jerk and refuses to listen to reason.

Also, if you go back and look people's posting styles old regs don't post stuff like:

"Twister sucks here, use scroll."
"-4 Factory, +4 Waste"

This is the style of the new-regs who post in a manner trying to imitate the older regs, but really don't have the knowledge or communication ability to explain things thoroughly. They know that someone once told them to do this, so they regurgitate it.

So in conclusion I think the problem with BD is not with the old regs. It stems from the middle schoolers.


By Matt D'Avanzo, the Sylvan Librarian (Matt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 05:36 pm:

All that being said, I love Camel.


By CF (Cf) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 06:06 pm:

-=brief return=- Do you mean the progrock band Camel?

BTW, people have wondered about this. The ToC will continue (hopefully), but people aren't giving me results! :o( I need to hear from you:

Anxiety
Cooberp
CTT
Fireangel
Freedan
Googhos
K-Run
Liam
Skapoor
Squirrel
upror
Vegeta2711 / Silky172

Stay tuned to the ToCV thread (which I won't boycot :oP ) for pairings. Should be up soon, since I'm close to draw/dropping the people above.

--
Chris


By Dozer (Dozer) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 06:13 pm:

CAMEL IS BROKEN! BANDING ROCKS!

Sorry, I could not resist *that*...

I have not participated in this thread yet, because I found it amazingly interesting to watch. But I have formed my opinion about pone or two things:


Quote:

1. If you can't say anything helpful in a nice way, don't say anything at all.


I think that is the main reason why so-called "scrubby" decklists often don't receive comment. No-one thinks he/ she could give good advice without getting rude at some appearently blatant incompetent choices.

Plus, I don't know who of you have read the recent article of the Ferret on Star City, where he encourages everybody to start writing (and to become a second Rizzo, but that's a different story). The point he makes is valid anyway: People don't write because they are afraid of being made fun of (grammar???). I think here quite some people don't answer for a similar reason: If they comment positively on a decklist that got no comments in four days, they maybe feel they make themselves a scrub as well.
I assume that is because too few people really dare venturing an opinion before the Paragons have spoken, or don't want to get in conflict with those.

I assure you all, it ain't so. I have not been around for really long (got my brackets in September 2001), so I count myself as one of the "new-regs". But I always tried to make a point of explaining my reasoning. I may have had some shifty ideas, and I am no great creator like Azhrei or guru like Matt D'Avanzo. Still, I know how to play my decks, and consider myself as a solid player.
I try to be polite and clear. I never got flamed on this board, and I never flamed anyone on this board. I am one of those mid-schoolers who should take up the task of answering the questions and requests that the old regs are now tired of answering. And I promise that I will, from now on, politely and not scrutinizing anything that does not look like Rakso's Control Players Bible.

Tracer said it waaay above: We are the Ones. I'm issuing a call to arms:

Tracer, Redman, Freddie Williams II, Will the Walking Dude, Milton, Matt the Great and who else there is: Let's take up the job of showing newbies or randoms that they can get qualified answers where they think snobs are, and let's show the "upper crust" that there are more minds then theirs who can correct shifty lists in *their* *own* *way*. And if they don't agree, fine - it's a discussion board after all, isn't it?

With High Intentions,
Dozer


By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 06:57 pm:

Hey wow, you mean that OTHER people might start posting good advice regularly?

At last... I can rest....

And maybe the mills won't suck as much either.

Wouldn't it be GREAT if the top players talked to the next to the top players, and THOSE guys talked to the next rung down, and so forth? Then everyone would be dealing with people on a comparable level, everyone could advance in play knowledge and skill, and the top players wouldn't feel burnt out and edgy from getting harassed every time they do/don't reply to the lower end decks?

::sobbing the lyrics to Kumbaya, hugs Matt D'Avanzo::


By Jacob Orlove (Orlove) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 07:21 pm:

Well, I'll try to contribute as well. I haven't been on these boards long, but I have been playing since 1994, so I might be able to contribute some.

I hereby pledge not to look at a bad deck without offering useful, contructive criticism (so the "paragons" won't have to)


By DefiantVanguardVs.PhyrexianInvasion (Puschkin) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 07:21 pm:

Don´t make fun of it, Azhrei, that´s exactly what is missing here! Sorry, Matt D, the problem isn´t the "middle-schoolers" being arrogant or stupid, it´s them being plowed under and the resulting hole in skill levels.


By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 08:34 pm:

I'm not making fun of it! I've been trying to get that idea across for months now! I'm VERY PLEASED.


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 11:28 pm:

"I'm not saying flame the guy with 4 Camels his deck, but I'm not, NOT going to get into a 10 page discussion on the merits and disadvantages of Camel in type I (then it would look like the WW primer). It's enough to say, 'This is a weak card because it doesn't attack and banding just isn't a useful ability in a creature-light format. If you play in a creature-heavy area there are better cards (list some here) and if some freakazoid is running deserts you can use your Strip/Wastelands to kill them.' This is the approach and tone I have always taken. The only time I act up is when someone (or multiple people in the case of this thread) is being a jerk or just plain not listening to reason ('NO! CAMEL IS BROKEN! BANDING ROCKS!')."

I know that you have always taken this approach. Not every problem that myself and others have mentioned was meant to be a reflection on you specifically. I've admitted that I'm as guility of some of them as anyone.

I'm also not saying that you should humor anyone INDEFINITELY. That would be stupid. Only that people should always be given the opportunity and encouraged to explain their card choices first as a matter of politeness.

Once that's done, critique away.

My opinion is that a newbie learns a lot more when you ask him WHY he put Camels in his deck than if you just recommend the Camels be cut. Then he actually has to think about and try to articulate why he put them there to begin with and then he can hopefully listen to your reasoning, test it that way, and begin to appreciate the difference.

It's better to learn not just that your card choices and the reasoning behind them (if any) are sub-optimal or wrong, but why. To learn what's fundamentally flawed in your thinking and strategizing and how you can work on it. This is a better way to do that.

Encouraging newbies to explain themselves before being counciled too much also helps combat the "snob perception" because it fosters the idea that T1 isn't just about sitting back silently and being preached to by the old guard, but that there's a real give and take and more of a presumption of equality. Tech comes from the unlikeliest places sometimes, and newbies like the impression that they're not just being lectured, being listened to, as well. That even their meager scraps of possible solid strategy are welcome and appreciate and they won't get shot down too hard for sharing.

I just want an open environment where nobody feels like they're too stupid or inexperienced to share what's on their minds without fear of being called Inquest fodder and/or just being deleted.

This doesn't mean that we can't tell people why their Camels are a bad idea, just that we should also make sure they know why and know that we're not laughing at them for not knowing even stuff that we consider self-evident or second nature to begin with.


By Burning Ice, the Elementalist (Burningice) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 03:36 am:

Darn, Dozer beat me too it. Oh well. Just wanted to say my piece... I'm not going to lie and say I've read everything in this post, but I have skimmed through it... I've been having internet problems, and reading all of this in one shot might give me an aneurysm.

Anyways. I've been posting here for quite some time, though lately it's been mostly in the Rules Mill, as I don't have time to read billions of posts. But anyways.

I came here originally believing I knew how to play Magic. I believed I was a decent player, sure I hadn't won any big tournaments or anything, but I felt I had some skill. But this place opened up my mind. There was so much out there that I had never considered. So I read some posts, posted a deck I was playing at the time that centered around Underworld Dreams and Storm Seeker, and got some feedback.

A while later, I decided I was going to try to create my own deck. Something that would let me play the game my way and hopefully do a decent job. I called it "Ice Blue Zoo", and the original list had Psychic Purge in it (as Zoo tends to have 8 burn spells, so would I, 4 Purges and 4 Blasts). But I quickly saw the error of my ways, and with help, realized a few cards I hadn't even considered. So I entered T1TOC2, and made it up to the quarter finals. And then I entered T1TOC4, and also made it to the quarters. Not bad for a guy who when he got here was winning via Howling Mines and Storm Seekers.

And now I'm flattered, and ecstatic that people ask for my deck. That it has become IBZ and people know what it is. I'm not a special Magic player. I have no DCI rating. I play in the occasional tournament, but that's all. But I think I've improved my play greatly in my time here, and I believe that before the mill got cluttered with people complaining, there were some pretty good dialogs here, and I hope to see them again.

So Cheers. I think the mods are doing fine. They're not getting payed for this, and I know one thing for sure. I wouldn't put up with all the crap they put up with unless Shadow/Goss or whoever the new owners are going to be were paying me - big.

Well, there's my piece. Now if you'll excuse me, it's 3:30am here, and I'm going to sleep.


By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 04:49 am:

I think the problem isnt the lack of advice being given by Matt or Az, its that people only seem to respect what those guys alone say. Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against those dudes, they are some of the best deckbuilders/players we have, its mostly the newer ppl on the mill. I can tell somebody that Wheel of Fortune doesnt belong in Keeper just as good as the next guy but they wont listen to me because i am not some great magic god. I personally feel that i get no respect on this mill, its not that big a deal to me, but it impairs my ability to help ppl out when they just view me as some nobody and refuse to listen to my advice. Im not always right, but i can sure as hell point out obvious deckbuilding errors ::cough-hyppies in pox-cough::


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 05:22 am:

Okay, two things, and I hope that's all I ever need to say on this thread.

I. My opinion is that a newbie learns a lot more when you ask him WHY [snip]

Okay, I'm listening to you and I really do see where you're coming from here. However I don't think it is necessary in all cases and just creates a big waste of time.

Look if someone just posts something that's objectively absurdly wrong with their deck, let's stick with the Camel example, then (from my perspective) it's a waste of time to reinvent to wheel and ask questions as if we weren't damn sure Camel is a crappy card choice for a type I deck.

And if there is a particular reason why he's running Camel (maybe everyone plays Desert in his area) that, by the rules of this mill, is HIS job to post along with his decklist. If someone dones't explain themselves and leaves everything to us to guess at that is their own fault.

However in the case of more subtle issues, say, using Chainer's Edict over Diabolic we should seriously talk things out and ask questions. Look, I'm not suggesting we cut out learning things in lieu of the better players telling the weaker ones what to play or do. All I'm saying is when something is just dumb obvious it helps no one to mull over it as if it's a real issue.

When I played type recently the first version of my control deck had disenchants because I was totally ignorant of the envirionment. Thirteen year old Steven Sadin tells me why it's dumb (there aren't any targets for it). Because I don't want to just take someone's word for it and run up against a nasty art/enchantment I get a second and a third opinion--they all match. Then I look up the played netdecks and see for myself, yup, disenchant would suck. This (someone giving me all the information and their logic, trusting that I will come to the best choice after processing it all--no, I'm not a tech-head.), to me, is a lot more effective and efficient than holding a huge Q&A with the eventual hope that I will come to the right conclusion.

Now I realize everyone has different learning stlyes and my way might not suit everyone. However, that's why we have 300 different people that can post on this mill. As long as everyone posts with a basic level of courtesy than they should be able to do so in whatever style they want. Someone has to click with someone else eventually. So if Yamo want's to do it a certain way, I think that's very cool, but I know I am just NOT capable of being that meticulous. Similarly if someone tried to explain things to me that way, I'd get frustrated.

I know some people here have given me advice over the years that didn't really take, but others explained it in a way that seemed to logical I couldn't help but agree. One of the people that really managed to sway me on a lot of issues with a logical presentation was Milton. After Azhrei (then playing a greener keeper) and my friend Robb (still playing greener keeper) had convinced me that Gorilla Shaman was pointless, Milton changed my mind. He also ALMOST got me to run Bloodmoon in my Keeper deck.

II. You know there is one other thing that annoys me on these mills. I think there are a number of people that fancy themselves rogue players, that are really just using it as an excuse to justify suboptimal decks.

Being openminded is good--but not so openminded that your brain falls out. As sick as I am about some people's closemindedness and lack of playtesting, I'm just as sick of hearing people giving good advice or making solid points get criticized for not being open-minded enough or not playtesting. If I could descend from a moutain with two stone tablets with ten guiding statements written on them the first would be:
"Look, I do not need to test your Twiddle/Leviathan/Mogg Cannon deck to know it isn't tier one."

I think the problem stems from many people talking out of their ass. Because so many people talk without any real backing they assume everyone's opinion is worth as little as their own.

I have never, ever claimed to be good at magic, but I do know that I have rarely, if ever given some sort of definite statement about a card, deck, etc. unless A) I playtested it or against it. B) It was REALLY obvious. If something is obvious enough that I feel comfortable posting about it in a tone the implies certitude without testing it, don't criticize me, wonder why it isn't obvious to your own crackhead self why you can't understand Leviathan costing 10 is a problem.

If anyone feels like sifting through old BD posts, every single time it wasn't an obvious (even when some people understandably felt it was and were wrong) choice I either A) was on the side of right because of some playtesting experience (i.e. Funker being an awesome deck and not a pile or bad stacker2 ripoff) B) kept my mouth shut so I wouldn't have to eat crow later (i.e. Parfait) in ToC1.

Again, we are trying to improve as much as we can within our limited amount of spent time. If I come up with an idea that's garbage (I've made some bad, weird decks) I want to be convinced that it's garbage as soon as possible so I can stop wasting my time and think of something different.


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 05:24 am:

Yeah, I used Hyppies in Pox (were you even around then Fever Dog) and they su-ucked.


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 05:47 am:

On the respect thing,

I never, ever worried about whether anyone thought I was some sort of magic god or not. I just gave advice the best I could and if people didn't take it, it wouldn't be for my lack of explaining it logically. I just figured that intelligent people would know that I wasn't a total scrub if they read my posts.

Frankly the open recognition I've received lately on this mill (which actually sort-of unnerves me) is less due to anything I've actually accomplished, than stuff like being mentioned or quoted in Darren's OSE primer and Oscar's control article epic series, and I guess my own Star City aggro series being up and running. For the longest time (when Az was here consistently so I didn't have to be the bad cop) I quietly gave my advice and didn't think anyone noticed. I really think that recognition fails to hit most people at the moments when they most deserve it, if at all (was it "Ride the Lightning" or "Load" that made Metallica super-famous?).

Personally I think I was more helpful and a better BDer then, not necessarily because I was less inclined to give someone a hard time, but because I posted on all sorts of random, unknown people's deck threads. Lately I've been trying to get back into that mentality. Tell you the truth, Spin13 is the only person I can think of (other than Rakso) who consistently does that. Some props are in order there.


By DefiantVanguardVs.PhyrexianInvasion (Puschkin) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:10 am:

No, you are just getting more attention cause many of the good ones left BD already. You were one of many guys here who I recognized and seperated from the others, you always belonged to that "guys who know what they are talking about" bracket. But this bracket is shrinking rapidly.

You do have earned yourself some respect, much like Rakso, with all your work and effort. But this does not make you invulnerable to flaws and mistakes. And your harsh reactions on not-optimal decks and ideas lately make you look arrogant and jerkish. What Yamo said above makes a lot of sense and I always felt like this. You may be one level too serious/competitive for the general public (that one that consists of non-scrubs).
Good example: Azhrei, OSE and people playing the old, two-colour version. rOSE may be the better built but I, a "normal" or medium player, can´t see this from just looking at a decklist and telling me otherwise does not help me since I have to experience such things by myself. Also, the "paragons" (me thinks this term will stay) are moving in a inbred metagame, an utopian environment of optimal decks only, which is simply not true irl. Dwarven Miner tech might be useless in my area. Also little things like "upgrading" Swords to Fire/Ice may mean a big difference in the Matt/Keeper vs. Ahzrei/OSE matchup but very little difference in the Puschkin/Keeper vs. mediocre player/random.dec matchup.

Hope that helps.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:46 am:


Quote:

Also little things like "upgrading" Swords to Fire/Ice may mean a big difference in the Matt/Keeper vs. Ahzrei/OSE matchup but very little difference in the Puschkin/Keeper vs. mediocre player/random.dec matchup



I'm still scratching my head here.


By Milton (Milton) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:58 am:

Alright, I have to chime in on this thread.

First, I'm kind-of tired of people quitting this mill. Az quit, then he came back. JP quit, but he is really still here. Nameless really quit, but that's because he was the only one to flame Negator and he wouldn't put up with Legend's BS. I'm glad Az and JP are still around. They usually give good advice. But, about six months ago this exact same thread occured. The participants were different, but the message was the same.

Quit if you don't like it here. Leave. If it truly sucks here than get the hell out. This mill is a democratic institution. Like all democratic institutions there is bound to be some social conflict. It's normal. It's healty. But, don't take things so personally. Don't get so damn angry.

Hell, people here tell me that I'm crazy for running Bloodmoon in Keeper. Last week someone told me I was dumb for not running Regrowth in Keeper. Screw em. I took out Regrowth and dumped the green Mox and posted my deck. People who I have never met, people who could be any random scrub, told me that I was an idiot and I don't know how to play. OK. Fine. Now, I could take that personally. I could get angry. After all, I have a great rating and I am very well respected in my region for my ability and my collection. I could get into a pissing match or a flame war over another poster's slight of my deck. But, I have a job. I have a wife. I have a life. There are other things I would rather do than respond to someone who thinks I am stuipid. I'll explain my rationale, but if that doesn't work then I'll just ignore those who have nothing better to do than call me an idiot. I expect all rational individuals to do the same.

It's social conflict, kids. People just disagree. Understand that reasonable rational and intelligent deck builders can come to completely different conclusions on the best way to build or design a deck. Know this and you will sleep better at night. If you think you have all of the answers, your design is always best and it is your duty to point out where others are wrong, then your an idiot. If you think you have the best metagame, the best competition and the most answers, you are wrong. If you think that you have nothing to learn and don't want to give, then go away. We don't want you here.

If you want to associate with good people, discuss decks from a reasonable and rational approach and learn how to become a better player and deck builder, then stick around. There are things to learn here. But, understand that this mill isn't designed for YOU, it's designed for the collective US. The Mods represent the ideals of the US, not the wants or needs of YOU. And, the mods do a great job of representing US.

And, lastly, thank you mods for providing the means for me to have hours of entertainment, enjoyment and informative discourse with my fellow Magic players. Thank you very much.


By DefiantVanguardVs.PhyrexianInvasion (Puschkin) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 11:26 am:

Rakso, please explain why you scratch your head at this! I meant that when two equal players and two equally good decks, each "optimum" versions to beat "optimum" versions, meat each other, very little things may decide who wins. The more decks and skills differ, the more difficult it will be to determine which card had which effect on the outcome of the game, in this case Plowshare might have been even better than Fire/Ice against certain decks with fatties. Now, at what are you scratching your head? After all we agreed to not psot oneliners like that.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 11:37 am:

Because you sound like someone saying we shouldn't bother with finer strategy points and didn't notice certain players like Matt and myself stocking up on StPs?


By DefiantVanguardVs.PhyrexianInvasion (Puschkin) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 11:59 am:

Hm. Of course you should bother with finer strategy points. I was adressing that focussing more and more on details seems to produce trouble while judging other decks. It´s a queastion of scale.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 12:10 pm:


Quote:

I was adressing that focussing more and more on details seems to produce trouble while judging other decks. It´s a queastion of scale.



But if we don't discuss details, what would you want to talk about? I don't fancy a forum filled with debates about deck names, for example...


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 02:12 pm:

Nameless is also in the Special Forces and there's a war going on. He's off doing some destruction.

Milton: Unfortunately this is NOT a democracy. It's a tiered autocracy. You are one of the most respected people on this mill, if for nothing else than running the Keeper that looks the worst and plays the best out of all of them. Therefore, you are one of those who's job it is to help more than get helped... you just don't need it. Azhrei's been getting on my case in particular about this topic for months... he's sick of posting why Noble Panther doesn't deck Keeper.


By 3rd Wheel in Legend's Love Triangle (Yamo) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 02:24 pm:

Eh. I made room for Fire/Ice, but never cut StP at all. I had a spare slot since Shaman is so weak in my metagame.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 08:37 pm:


Quote:

Nameless is also in the Special Forces and there's a war going on. He's off doing some destruction.



Really now?


By Azhrei, Paragon of Vintage (Azhrei) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:32 pm:

No, that's not true. Nameless is in Wisconsin, in the army.

And Rakso, I started maindecking a StoP in my Keeper which prompted Matt to start looking into it too (Factories at NG, other stuff here). When did you start doing that? I haven't heard about it yet.


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:51 pm:

>>>I was adressing that focussing more and more on details seems to produce trouble while judging other decks. It´s a queastion of scale.

Pushkin, the problem is you either don't read enough of what I post, or read it thoroughly enough. Did I ever say, "You are moron with a suboptimal deck if you run StP over Fire/Ice in Keeper". No, I did not.

However I did go on for ever about how awesome I think Fire/Ice is--because it is. People can then make their own choices based on my arguements and information (playtesting reuslts, etc.). If you don't think that the situatiuons I present will ever occur in your area, then don't run it. However, I would think that people should at least give it a ride around the block before saying "no way, it won't kill the huge fatties in my area". Hey, if I played against huge fatties I'd have an StP maindeck as well (and not need a 10th counter). And furthermore I've often said how much I want to fit an StP maindeck.

I'm not argueing over minute strategy points here, but rather using your own example of how I deal with strategy and others on this mill, to say perhaps your impressions are misconstrued.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 11:27 pm:


Quote:

And Rakso, I started maindecking a StoP in my Keeper which prompted Matt to start looking into it too (Factories at NG, other stuff here). When did you start doing that? I haven't heard about it yet.



Since the restriction?

And please. Everyone knows I invented that trick of tapping land for mana.


By Acolytec (Acolytec) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 05:43 pm:

"So does the number of people who don't agree with the "established" builds of archetypes."

There -is- a large divide, not just between good and bad players but also between factions of good players.

The difference is ideology- some people on this mill (read Matt and Azheri) cone from a "keeper" centered world in which keeper and keeper strategies are the foundation upon which everything else is to be built.

Some other people (read JP, me, Smmenen, K-Run, CF, whoever made funker, GZeiger, Goldfish, and so on) come from worlds that do not revolve around keeper.

My point therein is that it would be nice to have a bit more freedom than is granted due to the keeper mentality of people like Azheri and Matt.

A few examples of what would be different:

-I could say true things like "Monoblue is better than keeper" and not get harassed and told to go suck dick by keeper players.

-Smmenen's posts would not be deleted -because- they say things like "monoblue can win with 20 counterspells" You just watch Smmenen hit the top 8 with that deck in the TOC (and me too if I manage to avoid more mirror matches - god forbid a deck run 4 back to basics or 20 counterspells maindeck).

-Deckbuilders like CF and myself would not feel the need to withdraw from BD because the keeper players are too resistant to accept ways of playing that are threatening to keeper's mode of thought.

Acolytec,
Dana Heitner


By CooberP, the Aura Fracturer of B2Bs (Cooberp) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 05:53 pm:

"True things like 'Monoblue is better than keeper?'" We're all entitled to our opinions, but I think that it's a pretty close matchup, and I think Keeper has the edge without 4 FoF and especially after sideboarding. And Keeper is better than mono U against beatdown, mono U is better against combo. This would be a whole different thread, but you're ASKING to be told to suck dick when you make blanket assertions like that.


By Kirdape3, the Court Jester of Beatdown (Kirdape3) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 06:15 pm:

The best players on this mill (with the exception of Carl Devos, CF, and Nameless when he's around) all come from the same three shops... Neutral Ground (Matt and JP), Richmond Comix (Triple S [Funker] and Azhrei) and Athens, Ohio (Smmenen and his merry band, many of whom have power and are capable players). All but Athens are Keeper-centered, simply because Keeper's more flexible than mono-blue and therefore better in general.

Mono-blue might win in a head to head struggle, but it's also very weak game one to good aggro decks.


By CF (Cf) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 06:23 pm:

The ToC stumbles on... I've dropped alot of no-shows this time, but I don't know if I have gotten them all. _TENTATIVE_ pairings are here:

http://flaaten.net/round5.gif

The ToC will definitely not be 7 rounds, more likely 5 or 6 due to the number of people left.

--
Chris


By Acolytec (Acolytec) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 03:52 am:

Yeah yeah I know that its a close comparison to say monoblue vs. keeper. My point though is that everyone jumps down my throat not because i make a rather opinionated statement (how many rather opinionated statments do say azheri or matt make on a daily basis?), but because it is keeper that I am insulting. And my blue deck is made to beat aggro and keeper - what it loses to is monocolor control.


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 04:19 am:

Coly--

I don't think anyone's (at least not Az or myself) ever harassed you for saying mono-U is better than Keeper. I think instead it's when you make statements that are, basically, you talking completely out of your ass. I try very hard not to get on your case, but in the interests of not letting people be misinformed I have to disagree with you in public sometimes. Some of your understanding of basic magic principles is just plain atrocious and you're extremely vocal. I really think it's a problem if we allow players to read [false] absolutist statements like (in the ban morphling thread) "Control beating aggro has nothing to do with card advantage" or (telling a guy building a keeper deck) "just play lots of counters and removal, everything else is a uneeded toy" without a counterpoint.

Again I've never gotten personal with you. I'm sure you're an excellent player, a wonderful sportsman, a superb dancer, a great kisser, a gentleman, and a scholar. I just don't agree with a damn thing you say in regards to this card game (other than mono-U being the best deck when FoF was a 4-of). It's as simple as that. When you post something I can agree with then I won't disagree with you.

I don't believe you can possibly claim that I've wronged you in any way while disagreeing with you. I've never said, "Shut up--what do you know about type I when you only play magic in a totally casual everything is unrestricted envirionment?" No, I've taken valuable time out of my life to explain why such-and-such point is wrong (or at least why I disagree). In other words I disagreed with you and explained why, in a thorough manner. I really don't see how I can be faulted for that.


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 04:33 am:

Incidentally... Acolytec only posts about Mono Blue and Oath. When has anyone debated with him recently?

Also, what do you mean by mono color control? Parfait?


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 04:49 am:

Mono-green land-D? heh


By Radagast the Brown (Radagast) on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 02:59 pm:

"mono-color control" would probably mean parfait, pox/void/other black stuff, and the mirror.


By Tracer Bullet, Voice of Reason (Tracer) on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 09:07 pm:

I hate to look like an ass, but Radagast, I'm pretty sure they already knew that. Rakso has a way with **indiscernable** sarcasm.


By jpmeyer, paragon of wiener (Jpmeyer) on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 10:40 pm:

Not to mention bad idioms


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 01:08 am:

And absolutely HORRENDOUS analogies.


By Acolytec (Acolytec) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 01:20 am:

Ok I'm sorry Matt. I have decided (and I'm not being sarcastic) to renounce my hatred of keeper players. Rakso said something kinda curious that for some unknown reason I had never thought of- and that was "well take a look at the people in your camp acolytec... Legend and the rest" I then realized that the blue people have as much attitude (if not more- 14 year olds seem to like blue) as the keeper players and that I actually like a lot of keeper players. So i was misguided and i repent.

And the statments were not untrue, just phrased very badly by me and perhaps misinterpreted by you. Monoblue honestly does not need to hold card advantage over an aggro deck- trading at 1 to 1 the entire game is perfectly acceptable- I would define this as card advantage not being necessary (although obviously helpful) because of morphling (who just doesnt die and I guess could be counted as inherant card advantage). The same idea could be used for keeper, although keeper tends to have less removal, but more sweeping. A keeper deck could indeed be concieved of that runs less toys and more counterspells and it probably would do better in a control on control matchup- it is just my experience that in control on control the deck with more counterspells (to an obvious limit) has an upper edge (dark keeper ran duress to combat counterspell high blue).

I'm not simply wrong (well i think so anyway)- I just build and play eccentricly and don't explain myself very well :P


By Matt D'Avanzo, Paragon of Vintage (Matt) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 04:08 am:

It all seems very poetic that everyone is resolving their long standing personal/group grudges now that BD is about to go under.

I guess I'm going to miss this place, just a tiny bit, and it's various patrons--even the people I spent so much time argueing with.


By White Knight (White_Knight) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 04:23 am:

I agree with you Matt. Now that everything seems to crumble around everyone is setting diferences aside:)

I'm going to miss you all, but you in particular Matt. You are a great player and I learnt a great lot from you:)


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 09:12 am:


Quote:

Rakso said something kinda curious that for some unknown reason I had never thought of- and that was "well take a look at the people in your camp acolytec... Legend and the rest" I then realized that the blue people have as much attitude (if not more- 14 year olds seem to like blue) as the keeper players and that I actually like a lot of keeper players. So i was misguided and i repent.



Yeah... cry out all your problems to Uncle Rakso and everything'll be fine in the morning... GOD!!


By Boltbait, the Master of the Hunt (Boltbait) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 12:49 pm:

It's kinda sad to see this place go out, even if it has fallen from the heights it once held.

::Lights a lighter, and observes a moment of silence::


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