Trying to build Keeper... what should be my fourth color?

Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: Trying to build Keeper... what should be my fourth color?

By Schmakt (Schmakt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 10:34 am:

I'd like to eventually have a fully powered Keeper build, but right now I'm playing U/b/r, and I think I'm about ready to add my fourth color. I don't have any of the Moxes yet (I will probably end up adding those last... the price sure seems to have gone up lately :() Anyway, I have one Tropical Island and one Tundra, so I'll need to get at least 2 (maybe three) of one or the other depending on which color I go to next.

My biggest problem is that I don't want any white bordered cards, so I'm having to build this very slowly what since the Beta duals are costing me b/t 60 and 75 each.

With that in mind, should I add green or white next? I'm thinking that green is probably the way to go. I already have the Sylvan, but I'd need to get a Regrowth. (not a big deal) As for white, I already own Moat, Swords, COPs, and Disenchant/Dismantling Blow.

I'm still playing 7 basic Islands, so I'll have room for the new duals easily. I'm also running 13 counters, so removing four counterspells for other utility cards also shouldn't be a problem.

Sorry for the wordy post on such a seemingly simple question. Thanks,

By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:03 pm:

It really depends if you want to be better against agressive decks white definately is the better choice giving you Balance and Moat and COps. Green gives you Sylvan and Regrowth which are key in the control match up. If you are still running 7 basic islands you might want to stay as you are now and board Bloodmoon its actually pretty hard to deal with.

It would be easier to help if you listed your current deck list.

By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:23 pm:

Depending on how far your deck's gone, I'd say red unless you need green for Oath.

By Schmakt (Schmakt) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:38 pm:

Thanks for the ideas... wasn't sure if anyone would want to pick through the decklist or not. Here we go:

City of Brass
Badlands (will replace with another City when I add the fourth color)
Island X7
Library of Alexandria
Mishra's Factory X3 (At least one of these is just a filler until I can finish the deck)
Strip Mine
Underground Sea X4
Volcanic Island X4
Wasteland X2

Black Lotus
Nevinyrral's Disk X2 (I go back and forth b/t these and Kegs)
Sol Ring

Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Edict
Mind Twist
The Abyss
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will

Fire/Ice X2
Gorilla Shaman X2
Kaervek's Torch

Ancestral Recall
Counterspell X4
Fact or Fiction
Force of Will X4
Mana Drain X4
Morphling X2
Mystical Tutor
Stroke of Genius
Time Walk

So, I'm thinking that I can drop 4 Islands for 4 Tropical Islands, then add Regrowth and the Sylvan in place of two Counterspells.

The other option would be -4 Islands +4 Tundras and -2 Counterspells +Balance +Dismantling Blow.

I'm also thinking about removing the remaining two Counterspells for a Zorb and a Merchant Scroll, so I'd only really need to maindeck two cards from either green or white.

White provides me with a better sideboard (and Balance!), but I think that green will help the MD a bit more.

As for right now, I could definitely throw in a Blood Moon, Zorb, Merchant Scroll, and another MisD(?) for the four counters, which might help a little, but my final goal is to really have a viable 5C control deck, so I may skip the step of trying to make the current build better by buying cards that I won't use in the 5C version. Thanks for the advice...

By Dozer (Dozer) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 05:44 pm:

I think with Ancestral, FoF, Stroke, Twister, Impulse, Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical and the two cycling Fire/Ice, you rather need more punch in the creature-kill department than with draw capability because your drawing power is -for the moment- high enough.
As much as I like Sylvan for being the ultimate top-deck machine, let's look at your creature kill: 2 Disks, Edict, Abyss, 2 Fire/Ice, Torch. Apart from the Disks which are very slow, you have no real "panic button", nothing you could throw between you and the Horde in a pinch. At the moment you have Factories, but as you progress to get everything together, you'll see that a 5-color mana base does not really allow for that many Factories. Balance fills the gap. Plus, you have *no* enchantment removal, so D-Blow does a great deal for you.

So, I'd recommend to add white to your main deck first to get the benefits of having enchantment kill and Balance. Secondly I'd also recommend that you take out the remaining Counterspells for Merchant Scroll and Zuran Orb (as you propose) to compensate for the lack of Sylvan with another searcher and to add the capability to survive that one critical turn after which you can take control.

If eight counters (as they often do) prove too few, you can throw in another one for that special occasions: either Misdirection or Teferi's Response as long as you play with three Factories. To make room, I'd take the Torch out, because playing an X-damage spell without the Moxen does not make sense to me, despite Mana Drains available. You have better uses for that Drain mana (Stroke, Morphling, Disk, FoF, Will). And winning should not be the problem with two Morphlings and three Factories (as long as you have those).

I wish you success in building a completely black-bordered 5-C-control deck! I am striving to do so myself, and I have almost completed it apart from my fourth City of Brass and my Mind Twist. (And of course, my Power has to transform miraculously from CE to Alpha...:))


By Schmakt (Schmakt) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:28 am:

Well, I was definitely leaning towards green, but it looks like white is really the way to go, huh? Thanks for the great explanations.

So, I'm going to go
-4 Islands
-4 Counterspells
+4 Tundras
+1 Balance
+1 Dismantling Blow
+1 Zorb
+1 Merchant Scroll

I'll keep an eye on my counters from there and replace the Torch with a Teferi's Response or another MisD if I find myself running out of counter-magic too often. Thanks again for the great explanation, and good luck finishing out your deck as well. :)

By Mako Satou, Rose among the thorns (Mako) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 02:44 pm:

3 Mishra's Factory is too many. You need at least 3 Wastelands to be able to kill opposing Factories and the Library of Victory.

Also I do not like Nevy's Disks. They cost 4 which is quite slow and they destroy your Moxes. You probably should play Kegs in this slot.

If you are adding white. You should take out a Fire/Ice for a Swords to Plowshares. I'm trying to fit one into my deck.

Replace the Torch with a Misdirection or a Teferi's Response. X spells are not very good too mana intensive. I used to play a Torch for a really long time but I removed it awhile ago. It just wasn't good enough.

I noticed that you have no Moxen or Lotus. You might want to consider going with an Oath engine based deck instead because Abyss on turn 4 is a little bit slow. Take a look at my powerless oath deck I posted it on one of the recent powerless keeper oath threads. If you want me to post it again I'll post it again here.

By Schmakt (Schmakt) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 03:06 pm:

Thanks for the thoughts.

I'll drop a Mishra's for another Wasteland... I don't like the Fall picture anyway...

As for the Disks, I don't have the Moxen yet, so that isn't really a factor. I've switched b/t them and Kegs (sometimes running one of each), and I usually find myself wanting to have the Disk over the Keg. Those slots are still definitely up for grabs tho - I'm always thinking about whether or not I'd rather have the Keg when I draw a Disk...

I'll try playing with a Swords as well. The only reason I'm a bit reluctant to do so is that it would lower my count of blue spells. I'll give StP a shot and see what happens. (What are you thinking that StP would be a good answer to, btw?)

And yeah, I've found that I rarely use the Torch for its intended purpose. (kill card) I'm going to test this deck out for a little while with the Torch still in it tho. With the removal of the Counterspells, I fully expect to have to remove the Torch for a MisD or T.Response at some point. I'll have to play a few games before I can figure out which one I want.

I do actually have a Lotus in there, and I'm working on the Moxen right now. I'm working up to having a fully powered Keeper, so I don't really want to change deck types right now. Thanks for the suggestion tho - I'll still check out the decklists.

By Erik (Erik) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 06:13 pm:

When it comes to Keeper's point removal, Fire/Ice is for wheenies, Edict for untargetables and StP for everything else. They are basically there to keep you alive until you play balance and/or The abyss. Since you don't have moxes and thus lack the ability to drop a fast abyss, you'll need a tad more creature removal than a fully powered keeper. Adding kegs is one way to go at it, but you'll treasure those StP's whenever you find yourself staring at a first turn negator...:)

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