Beyond Dominia: The Type One Magic Mill: turboland

By Lord of the Goats (Goat) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 01:30 pm:

here's my turboland. all the power i have is in there, my metagame is pretty random and about half powered. i'm mostly interested in getting an opoinin from neyvn since he's the turboland expert, but all comments welcome.

4 exploration
1 fastbond
1 regrowth

1 demonic tutor
4 duress
1 sickening dreams

4 impulse
4 gush
1 ancestral
1 walk
1 twister
1 mystical tutor
1 merchant scroll
1 thwart
4 fow
1 fire/ice

4 horn of greed
1 powder keg
1 zorb

1 glacial chasm
1 darigaz's caldera
1 loa
1 strip mine
4 undiscovered paradse
4 sea
4 volcanic
4 trop
4 tundra

2 cop-red
2 compost
3 pyroclasm
4 reb
1 keg
1 perish
1 emerald charm
1 extract- mirror match(takes fastbond)

sickening dreams is my kills... i like it a lot. it is possibly to just kill with fire/ice, but that take an hour and a half and people get bored. it also is very good vs aggro since it wraths early.

By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 02:01 pm:

I actually like the sickening dreams idea.

I'm not big on mystical tutor though, as it is card disadvantage and doesnt directly get the cards you most often tutor for , and i certainly would not run it before vampiric.

I would probably like to see either another orb or a crop rotation in there to stabilize your life once you are rolling.

Your counters are reasonable I suppose, but pitching cards (particularly the blue cards in this deck) often sucks very bad when fighting against control , and the blasts would probably replace your Forces post sideboard, as most other 'out' cantidates would be blue and thus make forces worse. Consider dropping these from the maindeck (they only really shine versus control where blasts are better). When Judgment is released, the new duress may be worth a try. In the meantime, you have 4 tundras only to feed sideboarded cops, so I would run enlightened tutor and abeyance, or drop the tundras for a gemstone mine and 3 islands. I would also prefer a mine over the caldera (5 return lands is a lot of lost tempo early, and everyone gets the occasional no exploration draw), and sol ring over strip mine.

My last little gripe is that you have 1 keg, 1 dreams, and 1 fire/ice. Unless you see a lot of meddling mages, you probably should pick the best answer instead of one of each.

so to sum up:

1) cut mystical for vampiric
2) Either cut white or run abeyance and enlightened (at expense of forces)

3) Sol Ring is much needed acceleration (especially since you dont have lotus)

4) Cut Caldera and probably strip mine

One final word on the counters. I think that with search and dreams/fire backed up by orb and chasm, you are unlikely to want to counter spells by aggro enough to pitch another card. If you are concerned enough about control decks to run forces, consider maindecking a couple blasts.

Good luck, and let me know how dreams turns out. It seems to strike a good balance between useful card and quick win.

Oh, and I wouldnt worry about the mirror too much just yet :)

By Lord of the Goats (Goat) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 03:11 pm:

all very good points.... although i'm not sure if i agree with some of them. fow for 1, while you really don't want to pitch a lot of stuff to it you can get away with piching a lot of stuff and while it isn't quite the most comforable thing to do, duress can't get everything and like i said i have a very random metagame. i really couldn't see cutting the fow's and relying on 4 duress as protection, i'll test it out but i am skeptical. and the blasts typically replace 1 keg, 1 fire/ice, 1 mystical, and one card that i can't figure out right now.... that's odd... perhaps a second exploration

about the orb and crop rotation, aggro tends to be on the scrubish side here so it's not that important. could definatly make a case for it if aggro were faster here.

fire/ice, keg, and dreams all serve different purposes. i see a lot of randomness (did i mention that? lol) so i'm scared to hell of some scrub with ww droping a pro black creature and worship, or something along those lines. besides, i do see mages every once in a while. keg avoids pro color and all damage for that matter as well as killing moxen. fire/ice cycles, and dreams is flat dead vs control and more of a courtisy card.

vamp over mystical... i keep switching back and forth between having a vamp or not. it's the stupid reject bastard tutor in my mind (not sure why). i never even considered cutting mystical since it gets ancestral, perhaps...

sol ring over strip mine? but then i can loose to a waseland since i don't run a second zorb.... if i add the second zorb, which i doubt, then i'll add the ring. abyance is a good call too. i must admit that i threw the cops in the board about 5 minutes before the last tourny i played, right after i lost 3 friendly games to sligh with 4 md price of progress... i fixed the problem but i never revaluated white in the md.

dreams is very good. a board sweeper vs aggro and it makes for a less drawn out game. it's very unexpected as well.

mirror maches are definatly important for me, there's 3 guys who basically build carbon copies of my decks minus the power.

By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 04:32 pm:

Just a few notes here.

1) You dont lose to wasteland without strip mine. Worst case scenario, youll have to dance about with zorb a little longer. Note that city of solitude or abeyance also clear this up.
The other option is to cut down to 3 exploration for a sol ring, but I think it should probably be there.

2) The extra zorb wasnt just for aggro. There is little more frustrating than starting to go off, and being handicapped by your life total trying desperately to get to orb. Your deck has less tutoring than mine too. DOnt think of zorb/chasm as strictly anti-aggro.

3) vamp gets ancestral too. But it also gets fastbond and just wins for you.

4) As for the metagame considerations, I am very simpathetic to the copycat-ing as I used to get the same thing here. The only thing I can say is that you should definitely abuse this tendency trade-wise (stock up on a card cheap, play it in a deck, then trade it high ... its a good system if you have a reliable lackey factor).

There will always be a few twists to a metagame, so I understand a bit of your tendency to defense and different options. But remember that a good offense is often a good defense. Sometimes all you need to do is set the deck up to win faster.

By Redman, Relentless Leader of Scrubs (Redman) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 05:16 pm:

One question: How do you guys deal with the really fast red decks...the ones that go Goblin Grenade, Fireblast, PoP, and burn you out too quickly for you to go off?

By Steve O'Connell, King of Metaphors (Zherbus) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 07:30 pm:

I hear Nevyn is rather large, I imagine it involves a trip outside?

By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 09:06 pm:

Although the deck has slowed down somewhat, I have, with only one exception ever, faired pretty well against sligh. When you dont need to worry about opposing counters, the deck is very fast. Failing that, there is also cop red in the board.

By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 09:06 pm:

And failing that, I sit on them.

By Lord of the Goats (Goat) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 12:21 pm:

silly nevyn, sitting on people....

still testing and processing stuff... i'm definatly adding abyance, and i see your point about vamp tutor.... it's looking to me like fow is becoming harder to run... :(

yeah, i know zorb and chasm aren't just for aggro... however vs control your not under preasure in terms of your life total. not having more hasn't given me any problems.

my gripe about cutting a stipmine is that that drops me down to 22 land 1 chasm.... that seems like too few to me, and i'm not cutting an exploration (my lackeys only run 3, mirror tech.. lol).

i definatly have som testing to figure out what i like best, but can i see your list?

By Lord of the Goats (Goat) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 12:12 pm:

current list:

2 abeyance
1 enlightened tutor

4 exploration
1 fastbond
1 regrowth

1 demonic tutor
4 duress
1 sickening dreams
1 vampiric tutor

4 impulse
4 gush
1 ancestral
1 walk
1 twister
1 mystical tutor
1 merchant scroll
1 thwart
1 fire/ice

4 horn of greed
1 zorb
1 sol ring

1 glacial chasm
1 loa
2 gemstone mine
4 undiscovered paradse
4 sea
4 volcanic
4 trop
4 tundra

why sol ring over either mana crypt or mana vault? both of those accelerate horn better. i kept the mystical tutor for now, mostly because i'm not sure what would work best in that slot... and i like ancestral. thanks for the help so far, i now goldfish a full 1-2 turns faster

By Renato (Renato) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 12:47 pm:

Goat or Nevyn, can you explain how to play turboland?

By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 02:08 pm:

This is why I keep trying to finish off the primer. Oh well, Ill get to it eventually. It would help if i didnt restart pretty much every time i get back to it.

Renato, for the type of list above, the key cards you want in play are fastbond and horn of greed.

Horn allows each player to draw a card when they play a land, mkaing it much like howling mine in that it has parity. Exploration and Fastbond break that parity by letting you play multiple lands per turn, thus drawing mutliple cards.

So the idea is to get fastbond (or explorations until you find fastbond) into play with one or more horns, and then cycle through your library. The process snowballs very quickly. If you are using fastbond, you can play glacial chasm or zuran orb to stabilize your life total. Once fastbond and a couple of horns are in play, you should be able to go through your entire library, while generating lots of mana. From there, the way you kill your opponent is up to you. In the above, Lord of the Goats builds up his life total with zuran orb or plays glacial chasm, and then plays a sickening dreams for 20. This may sound unrealistic, but having 20 cards in hand is very common for turboland. Other key cards include timetwister and regrowth, which allow you to recycle your library and start over (if you do this, sac most/all of your land to zuran orb inresponse so that you will have enough land to go through your library again).

The other, more traditional approach to turboland is to win with a morphling by recurring time walk. Personally, I kill with repeated fire/ice's as it is a useful card versus aggro and solid versus control, and never complete dead weight on its own. THis is very time consuming however, as it requires about five-six castings of timetwister.

Lord, here is the last list I used live before selling my cards, and pretty close to the list I use online now

3 Exploration
4 Horn of Greed
1 Fastbond
4 Gush

4 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

2 Fire/Ice

3 Zuran Orb
1 Abeyance
4 Duress
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Regrowth

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

2 Compost
2 COP Red
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tundra
2 Dismantling Blow
3 Brainstorm

THe land count is as tight as I can make it, and I can't say 100% it wont need one more. The sideboard has never gotten a complete workout, and compost used to be light of day. I'll see if it's an improvement. Brainstorm is protection of key spells versus discard as well as additional search for 'goldfish' matchups.

By FeverDog (Feverdog) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 03:20 pm:

Nevyn, maybe its just me but the white really doesnt seem necessary. Enligtened Tutor could be echanged for another search card (maybe Mystical?) or the 4th Exploration that i like to have in there. I know Le_Lepreux ran a 2 color version yesterday at the T1 tourney in montreal, he had B2B in the side but i never really got a good look at his deck.

By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 03:54 pm:

Feverdog, you are absolutely correct. The only truly necessary colours are blue and green. Black provides useful turoing and duress and red gives blasts and efficient win conditions.

White is a trade-off and a matter of preference. On one hand, if you are already into black for the tutor approach and duress, and into red for sideboarded blasts and maybe a win condition, then you have so many multilands that incorporating enlightened tutor (and abeyance, which I prefer to city of solitude as it can be like a 5th duress earlier without locking YOU in the main phase) is very easy. Also note that white provides some VERY important sideboard options.

If you start cutting colours to go 2-3 colour, white is definitely one of the victims. I did post a suggested 2 colour version a while ago, and yes it sideboarded B2B. I never really got to play it much myself, but a friend did pilot it to T8 at a Sarnia tourney. The idea behind that was to get away from a tutoring strategy, and more into cumulative card drawing, with the hopes of posing more problems for control and giving access to B2B. In a keeper metagame, I still think that's a pretty good idea. It's just not as fast a winner on average and has less flexibility.

By Lord of the Goats (Goat) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 10:52 am:

fof? seems odd, i've never liked it in any combo deck before..... care to explain it?

also, i think that cunning wish could fit well into this deck. it fetches any removal/counter/card drawing/hate/solution for random crap that you really want it to. it's been my experience that sometimes when racing aggro, you can draw alot of cards but still need that extra turn to go off. cunning wish could fetch that hibernation, and fof vs control (which is what i assume it's for). i think it's worth testing.

By Nevyn, the Village Idiot (Nevyn) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 11:12 am:

I don't know if I would play multiple facts if I good, but the one fact is good.

reasons it's there:

1) second card drawing spell to merchant scroll for (if ancestral already gone)

2) gets you five cards deep

3) the opponent rarely knows what in fact you do need.

4) With a suboptimal starting hand especially, it can be very effective to make a keeper opponent think he is facing the mirror. As such, if nothing else, this is great counter bait. Also, in order to accomodate blasts post sideboard, I often find that I need to cut down on my impulse count as there is little else I can afford to cut. Fact or fiction really helps make up for this decrease in cheap cycling/search.

5) I also have an all time high on defensive/silver bullet cards in my sideboard. This can get to those cards quick, and the mere threat of a cop red can lead sligh players to give 4 card piles that win you the game, so dont think of this as purely about control matches.
In short, I have never looked at a FoF in my hand with this deck and wished it was something else.

6) A small reason, but just like the tutors, fact makes my sideboarded brainstorms more effective as card drawers by clearing away the dreck I put back.

Cunning wish for red elemental blast or brainstorm is not particularly efficient. I suppose this could bump FoF to the sideboard, as it can also get dismantling blow, but I think the extra 3 mana would negate the flexibility.

Would you play a 7 mana FoF in your deck? Or a 4 mana brainstorm or REB?

In short, the instants I sideboard are not game breaking enough in single copies to really make wish worthwhile. If you face more maindeck hate than I do, you might consider it simply to allow access to enchantment destruction without fully wasting a slot.

By Lord of the Goats (Goat) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 03:09 pm:

the addition of cunning with would definatly mean altering the board.... and i think that we'd have better targets for it than brainstorm or reb. a 7 mana fof that can split the cost over 2 turns as an instant i think is playable...... especially when it can just as easily get you out of some random situation and win the game. i havn't actually gotten around to testing it though, i'll start on that tonight as well as my board.

By Lord of the Goats (Goat) on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 03:10 pm:

oh yeah, merchant scroll gets gush too and you run 4 of them

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