...in Canadian dollars
...but hey there's a cash prize!
Hi. There's a T1 tournament coming up on Sunday and I want a change from keeper. My metagame is lots of aggro (mostly bad), a bit of control (mostly good), and a pinch of combo (good). T8 is usually something like 4-5 control, and 1-2 aggro, 1-2 combo (all good). It's semi-powered. I figured that I'd give Forbidian a try:
4x Mana Leak
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
3x Morphling
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Fact or Fiction
4x Ophidian
2x Merchant Scroll
1x Impulse
1x Gorilla Shaman
4x Fire/Ice
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
4x Volcanic Island
4x Shivan Reef
7x Island
sideboard:
3x Control Magic
3x Blood Moon
4x Red Elemental Blast
3x Pyroclasm
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Blue Elemental
There's not enough sligh or keeper to justify more BEBs. It would seem to me that Control Magic and FTK would be good vs. sui (if you can get to 4 mana) and random aggro. The rest of the board pretty much speaks for itself.
The lone Impulse in there is just filling the last slot. I don't want another land and I don't happen to own Pbolt/blast. Mystical Tutor, Stroke, and Geyser all seem to keeperish for this deck.
Any advice on that last slot or on the deck in general would be greatly appreciated, and if you think that mono-U is a better over-all deck, I'd like to hear what you have to say. Thanks in advance!
Oh, and if any BDers (aside from Feverdog and Lepreux (sp?) of course) can make it that would be great. It's this Sunday in Montreal; you can drop me a line for more info. There's a cash prize!
...in Canadian dollars
...but hey there's a cash prize!
Montreal...THIS sunday?!? Damn. I already have a Type 1 that weekend. Its 4 hours north of me, but I think a few of us could trek up there. When do they usually have these things there?
Feverdog goes there, eh? Muhahaha. ;)
Is this the monthly Type 1 at Carta Magica you're talking about? If so I'll most likely be there. Still not sure what to play though. I played Parfait last time and didnt do well at all heh.
I think red definitely helps against aggro, and FTK is hilarious against Sui. Psionic Blast(if you manage to get hold of some) would be the better choice over Control Magic, as it seems Canada has a good number of SuiBlack decks.
Yeah, it's at Carta, always on the first Sunday of every month. Registration is from 11:30-12:00 and the tournament starts at 12:00. T8 can go till around 8:00 or 9:00 but usually not later than that.
Andy, could you let us know how you did at the tourney, i left early and i would like to know how it went for you.
Also, i forgot to ask you for your new e-mail address! Could you please post it here dude.
I won the tourney and split the prize (decided before hand) except that I got all cash and no store credit. Quarter finals I played WW, semi finals Enchantress, and finals an original version of knives.
I would have posted a report but I couldn't finish it last night and today I've lost complete interest. I had a good title, too: [start]"1st place T1 tournament in Montreal" or "why to side out Fire/Ice against control"[finish]
My new e-mail is: r***s@m***i.ca
Oh, and people, I still need advice on the deck .
A lone Impulse? What does it do for you that Merchant Scroll can't? I know that MScroll is no Instant, but that lone Impulse seems out of place.
Four Mana Drains as counters #12-15 appears a little gambling to me. You might try a 2/2 split between Mana Leak and basic Counterspell.
Are you sure that there is enough creature control in your deck? No Keg, no Mishra's, just Fire/ Ice looks like a very metagamed choice as if there were only 1- and 2-toughness guys in your environment. OTOH, as you say the aggro in your area is bad you are probably able to outcounter them anyway.
Dozer
Well I have built almost the exact same deck and have been playing it for about 2 months. I, too, have had great success against aggro and control. However, Oath has been a problem. The only differences in our decks are the following:
-1 Impulse
-1 Mana Leak
-1 Misdirection
+1 Wasteland
+1 Prophetic Bolt
+1 Gorilla Shaman
In my opinion, the Prophetic Bolt is a key card. I find it necessary to kill off some of the bigger threats that may squeeze through. With 2 Merchant Scrolls in the deck, there is usually no problems seeing this card. Personally, I run 3 BEBs in the side although 2 may be more appropriate. I also run 3 Powder Kegs in the SB for bigger creatures. However, I must contend that the deck is excellent, especially when running Blood Moons in the SB.
this is what i've been playing with for a couple of months now. maindeck is geared more towards aggro than anything else i guess. some of the stuff from the sideboard still gets swapped into the maindeck at times.
i do like the deck that Tristal is running; although i'd go with mystical in that last spot.
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
1 Counterspell
4 Fire / Ice
1 Prophetic Bolt
3 Powder Keg
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
8 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis or maybe FTK
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 Timetwister
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
Quote:i do like the deck that Tristal is running; although i'd go with mystical in that last spot.
Many good points. I think that I'll take out the Impulse for a Prophetic Bolt and see how that works out.
Dozer - Are you suggesting that I run 3 Merchant Scrolls? That seems a bit excessive to me. As far as creature control goes, I have 4 Fire/Ice (+2 two Merchant Scrolls that can fetch em) and very often first turn counters (FoW or Mana Leak + Mox). I was never really lacking in that department during the tournament.
Gilindon - What do you think of Psyonic Blast as opposed to Prophetic Bolt? I think the bolt would be better but I haven't tested it yet...
I'm also thinking about cutting down to 2 Misdirections. Thoughts?
Andy(sorry, i just have trouble calling you Phoenix), i think 2 MisD would be better, i really never like running more than 6 pitch counters. As for the Impulse, i still believe it should be a second Shaman because with no way to tutor for it you will not draw it often enough.
LOL @ FIRE/ICE OUT AGAINST CONTROL!!!!
Le_Lepreux
Oh yeah, I mistakenly thought that Le Lepreux was a good player, but then he started getting on my case for siding Fire/Ice out against control. You're obviously supposed to side Fire/Ice out against control, as anyone here will tell you! (tell em people)
But there's a perfectly legit explanation for his way of thinking -> he's a T2 player :P
Yeah, i guess we cant really blame him, he hangs out with T2 guys now so he probably thinks like them too.
Le_Lepreux, i know you dont get to play with REB in Type 2 but dont you think they might be better vs control than a card that cycles??
Phoenix, I definitely prefer Prophetic Bolt over Psionic Blast for a couple of reasons. The secondary Impulse ability is very strong while dealing the same amount of damage and obviously does not hurt you in the process. Now I can understand the mana cost difference, but P. Bolt is usually a situational card that I use my 2nd Scroll for. Also, this deck rarely has mana problems. Otherwise, I leave Fire/Ice to deal with the rest. With the Impulse ability and the lack of drawback, I feel that P. Bolt is superior for this particular deck.
As for dropping down to 2 Misdirections, I too feel that 6 pitch counters is optimal in this deck. An additional Shaman will go a long way in a powered environment, otherwise that could be an additional Wasteland, Impulse or even a lone Powder Keg. Any one of those would probably help out your deck more than a 3rd Mis-D.
I would never side out fire/ice vs control (except mono-U) when playing with keeper, as it answers shaman/miner without sometimes being dead.
However, this deck doesn't worry about miner, and shaman isn't a major issue, so siding out F/I should be fine.
You also have to consider that he doesnt run a single Fire/Ice, he runs FOUR. Keeping a single one after sb isnt a bad idea but keeping all of them in vs control is just silly.
Man, you don't seems to understand... First, don't run REB, run Pyroblast... Second, after sideboard, do play Pyroblast AND Fire/ice...
At the end of your opponent's second turn, tapping one of his untapped blue mana with an ice will draw you a card AND if you have an ophidian in hand, force your opponent to play a force of will to counter it AND if you also have a FOW, he'll need 2 FOW or he will face an angry snake...
Le_Lepreux
Actually you should run REB. The reason for this is that if you Pyroblast a blue permanent (like Phid or B2B) your Pyroblast can be misdirected to counter the Misdirection. With REB, you have to declare if you're destroying a permanent or countering a spell earlier on, meaning that it CAN'T be misdirected.
Now Fire/Ice isn't THAT bad a card vs. control, but any half-assed sideboard would have MUCH better alternatives such as REB, Scrying Glass, Blood Moon, Hydroblast...etc. It's not so much about Fire/Ice being good/bad as much as it is about there being alternatives so much better than it. And REB kills Shaman/Miner without being dead, too.
PS - Was there a hold up at the store or something???
Le_Lepreux, you are absolutely right. In fact, MonoU Phid decks should start running Fire/Ice... or even better TWIDDLE!! Now that's tech.
Better than a lone Impulse a third Merchant Scroll would be. (Oh damn, was that Yoda talk?)
Gilindon's idea of Prophetic Bolt is even better, since it actually *does* something for you unless Impulse. I'd strongly consider it and try it out.
Dozer
Legalize it!
For the record, this is the U/r Forbiddian deck that I built during the 4-FoF Mono-U era. I usually won't post a decklist in someone else's post, but our decks are extremely similar.
2 Manaleak
2 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Ophidian
3 Morphling
1 Forbid
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral
1 Timewalk
1 FoF
1 Prophetic Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic
4 Reef
7 Islands
1 Strip
7 solomoxen
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Control Magic
3 Powder Keg
2 Hibernation
2 Bloodmoon
1 Annul
Control Magic: I decided I liked this better than FTK. It's blue, provides the same card advantage, and while this often isn't as much fun against a Negator it does a lot better against something like CF's Mask deck.
P.Bolt: it's janky, but I love this card. I like this as a thrid source of manipulation, but also as a scrollable answer to a fatty that accidently, somehow hit the table. I wanted ot hve an answer to a Negator that wasn't ritualed out on turn one (since then I can hopefully fire/ice it).
2 Shaman: This is a serious mana denial deck, and that's how it intends to beat Keeper. It's also how to beat Cursed Scrolls game one since you don't have 4 Kegs like mono-U.
Forbid: since it is guaranteed to have less counters than a normal Forbiddian deck I like the prosect of a mid-game lockdown to scroll for. I think it's important against some decks to be able to achieve that counter-every turn tempo. Since I can't have 14-16 counters, Forbid is being given a try. I might cut P.Bolt and something else (shaman or a fire/Ice, probably Fire/Ice) for a 3rd manaleak and Mis-D or vanilla Counterspell instead.
Annul: It's a trial card. I haven't played with this since I was forced to MD it in keeper during the trix era. I keep thinking it should say "draw a card".
I really would like to be able to fit Masticore in the SB, but oh well. I figure I have enough of an advantage against sligh with Fire/Ice, stompy with hibernation and kegs.
Another card I am considering in the SB (over annul and one keg) is Pyroclasm which might help against Suicide.
First just a few points. My meta doesn't call for a 5th strip, a 2nd Shaman, or kegs, and I don't think Mystical Tutor is worth it. That being said, here's the newest version:
4x Mana Leak
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
1x Counterspell
3x Morphling
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Fact or Fiction
4x Ophidian
2x Merchant Scroll
1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Prophetic Bolt
4x Fire/Ice
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
4x Volcanic Island
4x Shivan Reef
7x Island
sideboard:
3x Control Magic
3x Blood Moon
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroclasm
2x Flametongue Kavu
1x Hydroblast
I took out a MisD and the lone Impulse for PBolt and a vanilla counter. It runs 15 counters right now and, although that's pretty high, I don't think it's too much. I really like (and am better at) playing counter heavy decks (which does not necessarily mean that I'm a bad player ) and I really couldn't find anything else instead of that vanilla counter.
Matt - Like I said, my meta doesn't warrant a second Shaman. I'm skeptical about Forbid, especially due to my high # of counters, but it's too interesting for me not to give it a shot. Thanks for all the other input, too.
BTW, Brian, I haven't forgotten that I still have your Pyroclasms.
Yeah, i was just about to send Pauly and Gino over to break your knees. Dont sweat it dude.
This is my version. You be the judge.
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection
4 Ophidian
3 Morphling
3 Impulse
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Fire/Ice
3 Powder Keg
7 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
2 Mishra's Factory (TM :P Actually, they should be 2 more Islands, allowing for 4 Counterspell in place of 4 Mana Leak :/)
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Control Magic
2 Psionic Blast
2 Blood Moon
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Misdirection
1 Nevinyrral's Disk/Zuran Orb/4th MisD/Prophbolt...
You migth (just might) wanna put some Miners in place of Blood Moons... Too slow anyway :/ Another decent call is to run 1 Shaman in place of the 4th Fire/Ice and SB it on the metagame slot
Er, I forgot the Library on the decklist, BTW.
Matt: I like your deck list. My U/r deck varies from yours in a number of ways: You have 13 main deck counterspells, I have 10; you run 2 Merchant Scrolls, I run a Merchant Scroll and a Mystical Tutor; you run 3 Morphlings, I run 2 Morphlings; I run Timetwister, you do not; you use 5 Moxen, I only use Mox Ruby and Mox Sapphire; You run 20 lands (including 7 Islands), I run 23 lands (including 4 Islands, 1 Mountain, 4 Mishra's Factory, and 1 Library of Alexandria). I play with 4 Impulse. Those are the main differences. I'm willing to try out a main deck Forbid and a Prophetic Bolt (an answer to a Negator or a fatty that somehow hit the table is a real concern for this deck. Sadly, relying on Fire/Ice to take out a turn one Negator is often not enough. Luckily, I also have Mishra's Factories and I sometimes sub in something janky like Rushing River. At 5 mana Prophetic Bolt just won't stop those early fatties. Maybe with your extra Moxen it works for you.) I know a Mono-Blue player who sides in Psionic Blast against Negators. I could do that too but they're a bitch if they're Misdirectioned onto you and since I have access to red I'm thinking of adding Urza's Rage to my sideboard. They do one point of damage less to a Negator, but they're uncounterable and don't cost three more under a Nether Void. I used to have as many as 4 Annuls in my sideboard. Then I went down to 2, then none. They really aren't necessary in the majority of games that I play. And if you're only playing with 1 you might as well play a vanilla counterspell instead. I thought about Masticore too, but I feel the same way as you about having other answers. And I rarely play against aggro decks. A have thought about a pair of Pyroclasms for my sideboard, however. Here is my current deck list:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
4 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Misdirection
2 Morphling
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Ophidian
1 Teferi's Response
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Fire/Ice
4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
1 Strip Mine
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (may also include Annul, Divert, Pyroblast, Pyroclasm, Urza's Rage)
1 Zuran Orb
4 Hydroblast
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Rushing River
3 Dwarven Miner
4 Red Elemental Blast
(Love the mana denial strategy)
Marco, I prefer Psi.Blasts over Rages due to them being Merchant Scrollable, and pitchable. Both are MisDirectable.
BTW, Lam plays them in his Sideboard now because I make him borrow them from me to survive against Negators
Phoenix and Marco, you need a lone Forbid for the reasons Matt reviewed.
Razor
@ Matt D'Avanzo: I think there are only 59 cards in your list. what's # 60? probably a zorb or LoA..
LoA, no zorb since you can't tutor for it. Sligh isn't a hard matchup with 4 Fire/Ice and 7 basic lands so it isn't needed.
Llawan is something I joked about using with my friends, but actually, in this deck with no access to black for Edict...it's interesting. Still, A) you can't tutor for it B) when it comes down it won't let you play your Phids right or does it only affect them?
Rushing River might make a better fake disenchant than annul in the SB.
I advocated Psi-Blast in accelerated blue, but I think that, at least in a BD envirionment, Control Magic is better since fatties like Dreadnought and Suchi don't get nailed by it. I would maindeck Psi-blast over P.Bolt, but P.Bolt can at least Impulse when it isn't helping you (and both can pitch).
Razor, I dont think Phoenix needs Forbid if he's running 15 counters. I do with only 13 and Marco will probably find it useful as well.
Miners < Bloodmoon.
LoA? really?? I'm playing something very similar to this right now and the Library just doesn't become active often enough.
How is it that LoA can't become active in a deck that is reactive in nature and runs 4 Phids and a FoF?
I'm with Matt. Library of Alexandria kicks ass in my deck! It's not uncommon for me to be drawing four cards per turn (with my regular draw, multiple Ophidians, and Library of Alexandria).
Matt: Sligh could be a hard matchup if it's a good deck. I have a friend with a fully-powered R/u/b Sligh deck. I usually have a Zuran Orb and a 2-4 Hydroblasts in my sideboard. It's true that you can't tutor for the Zuran Orb, but just drawing in early or late in a handfull of matches could mean the difference between victory and defeat (say you need 1 more turn to swing for 5 with your Morphling).
Llawan rocks! On at least two occasions she's brought me from the brink of defeat to a victory. She only effects your opponents, so they can't play blue creatures, but you can! You're absoulutely right about not being able to tutor for her though. I've thought about what I can do about that. Luckily, my build has 4 Impulse and a Fact or Fiction, so that lets me dig 21 cards deeper into my library to find her. One game I was staring down a Serendib Efreet and a Lightning Angel, about to take leathal damage in a turn or two (it's hard to kill two four toughness fliers with Fire/Ice). I had already cast two Impulses, and was on an EOT Fact or Fiction when Llawan appeared. My opponent put Llawan all by herself, but I scooped her up and cast her on my turn. My opponent was playing a U/R/W deck with plenty of burn, but I managed to keep Llawan on the table and I went on to win the game. Llawan also came in useful one game against a Meddling Mage that had named Fire/Ice. Unfortunately, sometimes I side out Impulse to make room for Red Elemental Blasts, but I have to stop doing that. I've thought about sideboarding two copies of Llawan to increase the chances of drawing her, and I've thought of some other admittedly janky tech: Polymorph. I would sideout my Gorilla Shamans so that my only creatures are Llawan and a pair of Morphlings (or perhaps sideout the Morphlings). Then I could Polymorph a Mishra's Factory to "tutor" for Llawan (or a Morphling, whichever came first). This would be like a one-shot Oath of Druids only I don't need Gaea's Blessing. The only problem is Polymorph costs 3U and I would have to control a creature to target:
Polymorph
Sorcery
3U
Rare
Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated. It's controller reveals cards from the top of his library until he reveals a creature card. The player puts that card into play and shuffles all other cards revealed this way into his library.
I've also thought about answering an opposing Morphling with a Morphling of my own (perhaps sideboarding a third Morphling, or ensuring through mana denial that I have more mana available to pump Morphling and increase its toughness). To get a Morphling into play I've seen Retraced Image suggested, but you have to have Morphling in your hand for that to work. There's also Mask of the Mimic, which is strictly superior if you have a creature to sac:
Mask of the Mimic
Instant
U
Uncommon
As an additional cost to play Mask of the Mimic, sacrifice a creature. Search your library for a card with the same name as target creature card in play and put that card into play. Then shuffle your library.
Scratch that. I just realized Mask of the Mimic targets Morphling which wouldn't work if your opponent was smart and made Morphling untargetable.
So after this lesson in jank I've learned that it's better to play something that is more useful all the time (like Impulse) and try and increase redundency then try some random tech and hope you get the exact sequence of events that will allow your "neat trick" to work. (This is why I don't think I will use Cunning Wish in my deck. Why sideboard a Misdirection or something useful when you could just have it in your deck and pay 2U less to cast it.)
I would say a single Rushing River is ten times better than a single Annul.
I do like the single Forbid! I'm going to try it in place of my main deck Teferi's Response in a metagame that I know my opponent's aren't packing land hate (5 Strips, Sinkholes, Dwarven Miners, etc.) and probably sideboard the Response just in case.
My deck prefers Dwarven Miners to Blood Moons. I can see in your deck, Matt, that Blood Moon is probably better (7 Islands instead of 4 Islands, no Mishra's Factories). For me to use Blood Moon would disrupt my sources of blue mana too much and take away my uncounterable attacking Assembly Workers. The nice thing about Dwarven Miners is that they can join the attack too!