Mono Blue in Extended?

Beyond Dominia: The Type 1.5/1.X Magic Mill: Mono Blue in Extended?

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By bogey on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 04:48 am:

It is probably the best deck in type 1 right now, so I figured..why not try it in extended? Here is the deck:
4 Morphling
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Misdirection
3 Powder Keg
2 Grim Monolith
2 Back to Basics
2 Masticore
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Wasteland
20 Island


By Kid on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 05:03 am:

I think that stasis is way more effecient...


By Nil8er on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 10:22 am:

Trick(Illusions-Donate) was the winning deck at PT New Orleans played by Kai Budde. His deck had Shivan Reef and Volcanic Island in order to maindeck Fire/Ice and sideboard Pyroblast and Pyroclasm. Read about the Tourny at: http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/event.asp?event=PTNOR01


By bogey on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 12:45 pm:

I already know about the Illusions-Donate deck and Stasis. Can I get some feedback on my deck? I would have posted either of those decks if I wanted to know about them.. I want to try something new, if that's ok.


By hääs on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 10:55 pm:

i was also thinking of trying to build a mono blue extended deck based on bbs. it would have looked alot like your decklist. without the acceleration from mana drains and the p9 i don't think it would work too well. then again i don't know much of what's going on in extended right now, so i don't know how much my opinion is worth. i still might try something similar because back 2 basics is just too annoying to play against.


By bogey on Tuesday, November 06, 2001 - 01:39 pm:

Anyone else have an opinion on this deck? No one has really actually given me advice on the deck.


By gzyzwc on Tuesday, November 06, 2001 - 02:44 pm:

OK I will bite, I have made a big Fatti Blue deck and here is what I am using! Seems to be O.K.

4 Grim Monoliths
4 Voltaic Keys
4 Mox Diamond
3 Saphire Medalions
4 Fat Motti's (Mahatamotti sp?)
4 Morphling
4 Air Elementals
2 Sibulant Spirit
1 Phyrexian Colossus
4 Impulse
3 Back to Basics
2 Powder Kegs
1 Twiddle
4 Crystal Viens
16 Islands

Seems to get a big Fattie out by turn 3 or 4 very consistantly, Sideboard is a problem probably 4 Hydroblasts, not sure what else though.

You deck is similar a bit, I don't think you have enough mana acceleration to use FoF it is a good card but only in type1 were you have mana acceleration!


By PJ Edwards on Tuesday, November 06, 2001 - 03:35 pm:

Sibulant Spirit sux run the free 4/5 for 7 mana that can return to your hand that u make infinate mana combo with high tide?


By Cliff on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 01:51 am:

5 Mox, 1 Lotus, and a Sol Ring make a big difference. Try going to 4 Grim Monoliths and replacing the Mana Leaks with Force Spikes in order to facilitate a first turn counter.


By bogey on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 02:33 am:

well I still have force of will and misdirection for a first turn counter, I just think mana leaks will be better in the long run


By bogey on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 03:19 am:

how many things should I be worried about countering first turn anyway?


By PJ E on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 03:39 pm:

well the misdirections work as a better sb against sligh and force of will is also for when u need to tap out to play something or that extra coutner in your hand.......


By PJ E on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 03:41 pm:

oh i didn't even answer the question, u can worry about lackley or goblin cadets, jackel pups, voltaic keys for tinker, mother of runes for ww, and the new sergants in WWu, probly some more


By BrianB, the Patron of Elves and Silly Combos (Brianb) on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 06:58 pm:

Cursed scroll is another quick drop that you might sometimes have to counter. It's not just the 1-drops that you have to worry about. When your opponent goes first, he'll be able to play 2cc spells before you have counter mana up. There are a whole mess of serious 2cc threats from oath to river boa.


By Kid on Thursday, November 08, 2001 - 04:26 am:

Blue skies in 1.x??


By bogey on Thursday, November 08, 2001 - 12:34 pm:

Just wanted to clear something up. This is not Blue Skies. It's an deck archetype from type 1 called BBS, where the main kill card is Morphling. It is currently the best deck in type 1 and I figure it should be able to do well in extended as well. The loss of Mana Drain, Library of Alexandria, and the Power 9 definitely hurts the deck, but I still think that it can be effective.


By Gzeiger (Gzeiger) on Thursday, November 08, 2001 - 02:51 pm:

I guess I don't visit this mill enough :)

I've tried to make this work too. In my opinion, the deck faces the following challenges in moving to Extended:

1) It really can't be Accelerated Blue anymore unless you're willing to play four Grim Monoliths. At two mana, these really eat into your early counter mana, and also compete with Powder Kegs for an early drop. In order to remain Accelerated, the deck loses a lot of the BS factor.

2) There are more dangerous enchantments in Extended (Oath of Druids, Exploration mostly) and they are relatively cheaper than what you see in Type 1. Since you can't necessarily count on countering these, you'll need at least two Disks so that you can reliably remove the Oath in time to kill the opponent.

3) Maindeck Back to Basics is no longer a good idea. Mono-colored strategies, while not necessarily dominiant, are certainly prevalent. Green (speed) and white (disenchants, shadows) beatdown decks are particularly problematic for you, and it doesn't help to run dead cards. The main multi-colored deck, Oath, is easily beaten by your abundance of countermagic and the inevitable Disk (although siding Back to Basics remains a good idea). On a related note, the viability of aggro strategies will make you wish for the fourth Keg.

4) Without Moxes and Drains, Fact or Fiction is no longer the best card-drawing available. Ophidian is cheaper (although not an instant) and provides a blocker which can be valuable against Sligh.

5) Misdirection isn't nearly as interesting. In the absence of the environment-defining Type 1 cards like Mind Twist, Ancestral Recall and Mana Drain there isn't much (Shock??) that you'll want to give up two cards to re-target. If these become Forbid to complement the Ophidians suggested the deck becomes much stronger.

With those changes the deck is much more like a typical Firbiddian, but perhaps a bit more aggressive, with lots of Morphlings. If you're set on supporting that kind of strategy you're going to need more than 23 lands.


By Loki on Thursday, November 08, 2001 - 02:52 pm:

No sorry the deck is good in Type 1, BTW I am an avid and big Type 1 player and have this deck in type one.

It wins with speed, and card drawing capabilites, you just can't compete with the card drawing of a type1 deck in extened the loss of jewlery is to big, plus you can't use Ancestral, and in Extended Fact or Fiction is not very good it is to slow. You loose almost 11 mana aceleration cards in this deck!!!! 5 Moxes, 1 Sol Ring, 1 Black Lotus, and 4 Mana Drains! Card Advantage from Impulse, Fact, and Ancestral is missing and that makes about what 16 Cards down before starting, 16 cards is alot to be missing to recreate a decklist, especially when they are as important as those 16 in the deck.


By EvilArchMage on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 03:11 pm:

I beg to differ with a lot, but not all, of losers in here posting nonsence messages, you want help with your deck right? First and formost, why run wastelands if you run back to basics?
Secondly, city of traitors would allow a second turn back to basics, and it would improve the speed of a morphling dropping on the table, since you usually only use it once, when you lay a land it goes bye bye, so back to basics wouldn't hurt it. Most importantly force spike is important if you run back to basics, they won't be able to pay the one mana, and also if you want a pros opinion, then remember powder keg is great if you run 4 of em. Last but not least, I think you need a better creature control base, like withdraw or rushing river, both cards can deal with fast decks, and fast is what extended is about, creature control is the first and formost important thing to consider in deck construction.
Quoted from:"Mark Justice"


By Vesuvan (Vesuvan) on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 11:39 pm:

Interestingly enough I am working on a similar deck for the PTQ's coming up shortly. I have found that Phid is getting blocked too easily these days, and Trick can slow them down until they combo you by using Fire/Ice. 4 Morphlings maindeck is definitely too many since you no longer have the acceleration, and Grim Monolith just isn't all that good IMO. Lots of cantrips is the main thing that keeps this deck running smoothly, and as long as reanimator is a force in the format, Force Spikes are a must for mono-Blue control.

Here's what I'm using for the moment.

Extended Mono-Blue Control

3x Force Spike
4x Counterspell
1x Forbid
2x Thwart
4x Force of Will
1x Misdireciton
2x Phyrexian Furnace
2x Opt
4x Impulse
3x Fact or Fiction
2x Rushing River
4x Powder Keg
1x Nevinyrral's Disk

2-3x Dust Bowl
21-20x Island

I'm still not ceratin of how many Dust Bowls I am going to run (they're much better than Wasteland IMO since you can wreck a multicolor deck with 1 Bowl), and I am still working on the sideboard, though it definitely includes at least 3 B2B's. If you have any improvements or question on this one, feel free to ask.


By Cliff on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 02:33 am:

Vesuvan, I assume there are Morphlings. I've a few comments and questions.

Are you running Fact or Fiction instead of Ophidian? If so, why?

Peek is better than Opt because it provides information about how close Donate is to going off. This allows for safe play of Ophidians.

What is the purpose of the Rushing Rivers?


By Vesuvan (Vesuvan) on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 02:46 am:

oops.. I forgot 4 cards: 2x Morphling and 2x Masticore.

FoF is instead of Ophidian since Trick holds off the Phids for a turn or 2 with Fire/Ice, giving them time to go off before you get the cards. Also tapping out mainphase against Trick is a good way to get combo'd. Secondly, against Aggro-Control decks such as Star Spangled Slaughter and Finkula, Phid just gets blocked. Also there is a fairly large amount of creature hate out there at the moment, and Ophidians often just don't get you the card-advantage. The effective removal of Stompy and traditional Sligh from the metagame helps since Ophidian is acting as a blocker less often. I am trying to find room for a 4th FoF if you have any suggestions?

I'll give Peek a try, but often Opt helps to dig for a FoF or Morphling/Masti.

Rushing Rivers are there for 3 reasons: Firstly they act as a 20-point Lightning Bolt against Trick, secondly they return a reanimated fatty or Natural Ordered Force to its owner's hand pretty quickly (often as good as killing it) and lastly becuase it's a good way to get a troublesome permenant or two off the table so you can counter them on the way back down or win a race. This is especially useful if Meddling Mage is naming Masticore or Morphling.

Incidentally, the sideboard I am working with at the moment is as follows:

2x Divert
1x Misdirection
1x Thwart (questionable)
2x Hydroblast
3x Back to Basics
3x Hibernation
3x Ophidian (also questionable)


By The Horse Man on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 10:18 am:

why not a capsize or 2 against reanimator and donate decks.also, the deck needs 4 wasteland and 4 thawing glaciers.4 main deck ophidians are nice.and use only 3 morphs at most, main deck.


By Cliff on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 03:35 pm:

The double bounce option isn't that important, so either Boomerang or Rescind would be a better choice.

I'd be reluctant to quickly cast aside Ophidian. It is the best blue creature after Morphling. It blocks opposing Ophidians (and Meddling Mages) and soaks up damage from beatdown decks. Peek removes much of the risk from an early Ophidian.

What about going to 4 Phyrexian Furnaces after sideboarding?


By bigshot on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 01:06 pm:

play rushing river's or furnaces against reanimator.


By Danny -J on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 07:49 pm:

vesuvan, wot about gainsay in the board?


By Vesuvan (Vesuvan) on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 11:02 pm:

Danny-J, while Gainsay would be nice to have in the board, it isn't really necessary since Phids, Diverts and Thwart already come in against Blue-heavy decks.

Horse-Man, Glaciers and Wastelands get locked down by Back to Basics.

Cliff, while the double-bounce option isn't usually important, it is a really nice option to have in many circumstances. For instance, if your opponent has a Spike Weaver and another creature, you will want to send both back to their hand otherwise it will be useless to cast the River (since Spike counters get slung accross). Also if your opponent has 2 Mages naming the same spell, you need the River to cast that spell. Basically using River over Boomerang or Rescind gives you a much better tool for those situations where you are racing or have multiple problems you have to get rid of.

The problem with Ophidian is, as I said before, that it isn't able to get you cards against most of the decks in the format. I much prefer to just side in 3 Phids against hardcore control decks and combo decks which will very rarely have anything on the board early in the game. I have given Peek a try, but I really prefer Opt's ability to dig further. Peek didn't make resolving a Phid any easier, and sinceyou can cast FoF in the opponent's end-step after you know they aren't casting anything (and better still you can cast it in response to an opposing control/combo deck's drawing spells) you can back it up with counters without giving the opponent an opportunity to cast something, and it is more likely to resolve. To sumarise all that, Phid just isn't the right creature for the current metagame, especially when we have other ways to handle creatures (thus he no longer needs to block).

I've actually found that this deck beats reanimator pretty well without Furnaces (Force Spikes help immensely), so I have sideboarded the Furnaces. I have also found that Divert works amasingly well both against Control decks and any deck using lots of targetted spells, such as Sligh. Therefore I have removed Hydroblasts from the sideboard altogether, making room for the Furnaces. I have gone up to 4 FoFs maindeck, with another Opt making up the last slot. The deck now looks like this:

Extended BSB (Mono-Blue Control)

3x Force Spike
4x Counterspell
1x Forbid
2x Thwart
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection

4x Powder Keg
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
2x Rushing River
3x Opt
4x Impulse
4x Fact or Fiction

2x Morphling
2x Masticore

21x Island
2x Dust Bowl

Sideboard:

3x Back to Basics
3x Hibernation
3x Ophidian
3x Divert
2x Phyrexian Furnace
1x Thwart


By Rakso, Patriarch & Rules Ayatollah (Rakso) on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 11:21 pm:

I wonder... might you afford Thaws with the new environment?


By dustin on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 11:45 pm:

im not really sold on the idea of running thaws in extended right now. in testing it seems as though they often sit in the hand until atleast the midgame. things are just too tight in the first few turns to risk dropping one over an island. plus the fact that wasteland is around. the toughest thing for mono blue to deal with is reanimator. it is extremely explosive, has duress, and also has a back up engine plus the contamination engine if necessary. i do agree with running fact or fiction over phids. the phids just seem junky right now, always something to block them, and honestly when are you willing to drop one? 3rd turn? i doubt it unless you have multiple forces. vesuvan's list looks quite strong, although i really beleive you can find something better to play than opt. peek is actually much stronger than i thought, especially with the new floor rules. it is a lot easier to keep track of what is in someones hand.


By Michael on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 12:18 pm:

Is Disrupt a decent replacement for Force Spike? Disrupt even seems to help against other Blue players as it costs them 1 plus you get to replace the card.

What very early card must be countered that isn't an instant or sorcery?

Michael


By spevack on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 06:22 pm:

Vesuvan,

I think you've got a very good build there. I'm curious to know what your reason for using thwart is (as opposed to something else like Mana Leak or more Forbids).


By bat on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 08:01 pm:

thwart is nice in the mid late game... it can be pitched to fow and feeds the cat... i guess it can be usefull against stasis too


By bogey on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 11:49 pm:

Thought I post my newest version of the deck. The sideboard's kind of janky, but the maindeck has been doing pretty well for me. Sligh seems to be a pretty bad matchup from what I've seen.

3 Morphling
4 Counterspell
3 Force Spike
2 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
3 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Misdirection
4 Powder Keg
4 Grim Monolith
2 Back to Basics
2 Masticore
3 Wasteland
20 Island

Sideboard:
2 Misdirection
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Hydroblast
1 Douse
2 Hibernation
1 Back to Basics
2 Dodecapod
3 Rushing River


By Vesuvan (Vesuvan) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 03:30 am:

Bogey, if Sligh is a bad matchup for you, try running an extra Masticore in place of a Morphling (sideboarding the extra Morphling). Sligh can attack around Morphling, but Masti is just game over. I'm also really not sold on the Grim Monoliths. I just found I was topdecking too poorly with them in the deck. Since Sligh is largely won by a Powder Keg (and a few counters), Impulse would help you dig for the quick Keg. (I say this because my build has been tearing Sligh to pieces). Diverts in the sideboard can really help too (I feel they're better for these slots than Hydroblast).

Spevak, like Bat said, Thwart is good in the mid-late game when this deck starts winning. It is also a very good free counter in a crucial counter-war, and the returned lands work really well with either Masticore or Forbid. Also since you will often cast Impulse on turn 2, there isn't quite as much need for the extra 2 mana counter from Mana Leak.

Michael, Force Spike is used over Disrupt to stop early creatures and Animate Dead, Zombie Infestation and Sapphire Medalion are all good non-Disruptable spells to counter early.

Dustin, I'll give the Peeks another try over Opts, especially now I'm using 3 of them, but what I found last time was that I was often not wanting the first card I drew, thus Opt helped a lot more in digging for a better card. Also I could often tell largely what my opponent had in their hand just by seeing what they had played in previous turns (I have tested a lot against the major Extended archetypes). I guess in a more random field Peek would be better, but often Opt's extra digging power is more useful (though I may take this back after some more testing...)


By dustin on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 05:26 am:

how about disrupts as replacements for opt/peek? just a thought.


By Steve the Superman on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 10:25 am:

I've been out of extended for a long, long, long time, but I've recently tried to build a blue control deck much like the one's posted because this month's Arena league is extended. So, here's the decklist I have:

4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
2 Dissipate
2 Forbid

4 Powder Keg
2 Capsize

2 Masticore
3 Morphling

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Wasteland
4 Faerie Conclave
17 Island

SB:
4 Hibernation
4 Chill
2 Dissipate
3 Millstone
2 Phyrexian Furnace

So since I haven't played extended in so long, I have no clue what the deck is scared of, hence my screwed up sideboard. I do remember that way back in the day people used Chill against Sligh. This might be a stupid question, but is there any reason why no one has mentioned using Chill in the board rather than Hydroblast? Millstones are obviously for the mirror match. I've always liked using cards like Phyrexian Furnace, so I sideboard some of those. Hibernation is pretty obvious.

My maindeck is much different from everyone else's, too. I didn't know that Force Spike was really worth running. I guess there's some kind of reanimation deck out there that's pretty nasty, so maybe I should include them. Also, I run brainstorm instead of Impulse. I guess I just forgot about it. I haven't used the card much, so someone tell me if Impulse is really that good. I also concluded that Ophidian was too easy to deal with, not to mention that it was another mainphase-only spell, so I use four Fofs instead. They're an EOT spell that gives me huge card advantage, and digs deep for the needed Morphling or Masticore. Sometimes things slip through your countermagic that need to be dealt with very badly, so if you're going to run boomerang, why not run one that you can use over and over again? Hence the presence of Capsize. Sometimes there's nothing on your opponent's side of the table but land, so you start Capsizing land and buying it back at the end of their turn. That can get pretty annoying when your opponent is saving up for a kicked Urza's Rage or an Obliterate. It's especially fun when you do it to lands that come into play tapped. I decided that B2B wasn't worth running because it was a four mana mainphase spell, and since I'm mono colored, I thought Wasteland would be an okay choice to give me an edge against dual land heavy decks. Also, it helps to keep my opponent out of Obliterate range. I probably shouldn't be scared of Obliterate in extended, but it's my luck that I always face the one deck that beats me three games in a row every time I go to a PTQ. Faerie Conclave might not be such a good choice if B2B is really that popular. I just had it in as an uncounterable win condition. I question the usefulness of Forbid when I don't have that many card drawing engines in the deck. Is Whispers of the Muse still a good card? What about Opportunity? I chose Dissipate as one of my counters because I'm scared of spells that have a tendency to come back from the graveyard. It's just a reflex, I guess. When I'm trying to get more card advantage than my opponent, the last thing I want them doing is recurring Pyre Zombies, Nether Spirits, or Hammers of Bogardan on me. I hope my decklist was of some help to somebody out there. If anyone has suggestions or criticisms, don't be shy.


By spevack on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:51 am:

Here's the maindeck I'm using. About the same, but I'm finding that Accumulated works very nicely. It's also fun to drop it down against Trix after they've intuitioned and dumped 3 into their graveyard. Mad card advantage.

It's heavier on the cantrips hoping to just get to the Morphling ASAP. Build the kegs up big to kill large stuff, don't worry about one or two weenies because Morphling will kill them. If they play lots of weenies, then keep the kegs low. Counter the essential stuff, drop Morphling, protect a little, and voila.

If only it were actually that easy.

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Force Spike
3 Mana Leak
2 Forbid

4 Fact or Fiction
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Opt

4 Powder Keg
4 Morphling

18 Island
4 Wasteland
2 Dust Bowl

SB:
B2B, Misdirection, Chill, etc.


By spevack on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:56 am:

Steve,

I think Dissipate is underrated in the current flashback-ridden environment.

If I had them , I'd run 2 Dissipates in my deck in place of Forbid.

Impulse is really that good. I'm not a fan of Brainstorm anymore. I like cards that move me through my library. The way I see it, when I Brainstorm, I put back on top the two cards that I don't want from my hand, and if I don't want them now, I'm not going to want them over the next two turns either, so I'd rather be able to put them at the bottom (Impulse) or just toss them (FoF). That's why I like Opt over Brainstorm.

The one exception is with Thawing Glaciers. It's nifty to brainstorm and then shuffle the chaff into your library somewhere.

I think B2B is a good sideboard card, and I have tested with and without Conclaves, and I find that it's a real pain to have tapped lands. I don't like them.

I wouldn't sideboard millstone. Against the mirror, I'd actually board in Phids because you can get lots of card advantage, and if you're running Forbid, then you can get the Forbiddian "lock" on your opponent.


By DE, Land Destruction a Specialty (De) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 09:47 am:

First an agreement; Dissipate should be used much more often: mainly because its an absolute counter for 3cc in blue. And there are bugger all even in the extended environment. Secondly because the removal can hinder a lot of decks

A disagreement wrt Brainstorm. Ignoring shuffling effects, it is common place that a card that you don't want now you do want in two turns (land vs counterspell for instance).


By Vesuvan (Vesuvan) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 09:08 pm:

Um... Dissipate better than Forbid? Can someone please explain the reasoning on this one to me? This deck can get a lock on the opponent for a reasonable time with Forbid by taking a 3-4 card pile off Fact or Fiction. There aren't all that many cards you need to remove from the game, and if your opponent has a deck with many cards you need to RFG you can bring in Phyrexian Furnace from the sideboard.

For a deck not using Intuitions (or some other search mechanism such as Wild Research or Merchant Scrolls), I am not a really big fan of Accumulated Knowledge since the first 2 are really pretty minor in their effect. As an anti-Trix measure, you have to remember that you'll have to counter his AKs before you will have any chance to use yours to the desired effect. The thing is, though, that once he's played his AKs the game is already decided: in his favour if they resolve, or yours if they don't. If the Trix player resolves his AKs you will have a very, very hard time casting your own. Since a Trix player will hold off on casting his AKs until he has a hand with counters (casting Merchant Scroll to fetch counters if necessary), I prefer a card I can cast before he casts his AKs. Fact or Fiction and Impulse make a quite effective drawing engine (one focussed on deck-motion) to draw you the cards you need to win the match (ie stop your opponent's Intuition/AK engine). I personally found that removing Impulse for AK weakens the deck since you don't get the card-selection.

In regards to Brainstorm, the reason I use Opt over it is because there are key cards you need to draw into in each matchup. Opt helps you get to these cards quicker than any other cantrip, since it can stop you from having to draw an "incorrect" card.


By bogey on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 09:29 pm:

I'm not sure I like the Grim Monoliths as much either, but nonetheless I still haven't lost a game. However, I'm not sure 4 is the right number. Anyone know how many they think I should use?


By Vesuvan (Vesuvan) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 08:49 pm:

Personally I would steer away from using too many mana sources, since it leads to mana flooding, and Grim Monolith is just another mana source. Playing a Core or Morphling while your opponent still has a full hand may work OK against a beatdown deck, it's going to get you killed against a control deck or combo deck. My opinion is that Impulse is just a far better use of that 2 mana slot. If you want some acceleration, City of Traitors provides a much better 1-off boost to your mana base (since you can keep using it later in the game if you're upkeeping a Core with your lands for instance). If you're in an area with a lot of Oath and other multicolor control decks being played, then B2B can be a good maindeck card, though I've found that it's too often just Force fodder against many of the top decks, meaning it's dead if you don't draw a Force.

Also, I'll have to take back my earlier bashing of Brainstorm since I have removed the Opts from my deck for 2 Brainstorms and a second Forbid. The interaction of Brainstorm and Impulse/FoF turned out to be quite good when I tested this configuration, and I have been trying to fit in the second Forbid for a while now. (It works quite well with Fact or Fiction.) Brainstorm also has the advantage of digging 1 card deeper when you need a counter.

This leaves the deck looking like this:

Extended BSB (Mono-Blue Control)

3x Force Spike
4x Counterspell
2x Forbid
2x Thwart
1x Misdirection
4x Force of Will
2x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
4x Fact or Fiction
4x Powder Keg
2x Rushing River
1x Nevinyrral's Disk

2x Morphling
2x Masticore

2x Dust Bowl
21x Island

Sideboard:

3x Back to Basics
3x Hibernation
3x Divert
3x Ophidian
2x Phyrexian Furnace
1x Thwart

My local PTQ is this weekend (right at the start of the season!) so I'll have some tournament results for this deck soon...


By TracerBullet on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 08:52 pm:

You still know my problems with your deck, so I'll just wish you good luck. I'm really pulling for ya!


By Vesuvan (Vesuvan) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 11:49 pm:

actually, Tracer, since this is your first post on this thread, I don't know what your problems with this deck are. If you could let me know soon so I still have some time for last minute testing..?


By JoeTzu on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 02:43 am:

vesuvan: I would be pretty scared running that deck without another land. If it was me, I would pull one rushing river for another island. I would also pull one fact or fiction for your fourth force spike. I don't think thwart is good enough late game to make up for its weakness early. I would replace them with mana leaks. You don't have any way to shuffle your deck either so brainstorm seems a bad choice. I would replace with a 25th land and either your third mana leak or put back the fourth fact or fiction.

My theory behind playing the deck is to couter everything early on and then drop your massive creature and win. If you have a keg then one and two drops can be let in.

Feel free to ignore all this as it could just be a difference of opinion on how the deck should run.


By TracerBullet on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 03:01 am:

One disk is definately not enough.....You lack the ability to reliably kill Oath, and they will shut you down cold. Running Dust Bowl, without any way to search it up (Thaws), and only 23 lands seems pretty suicidal. Bowls are DEFINATELY not worth having unless you have the Thaws as well. Joe's comments about the deck are definately worthwile. The last thwart in the side would be better as the 4th Ophidian. If you're going to go the 'Phid route after side, you'll definately want to go all the way. Almost never will you be unhappy to see another Ophidian. I'd probably drop at least one of the Rushing Rivers in favor of another disk, and maybe the second for the second Misdirection. Against just about any deck out there, you'll find a Mis-D target. I still think FoF doesn't provide enough of a boost in extended to really be worth playing over Ophidian, but it's a personal choice. If you're dead set on playing FoF, think about maybe playing them side and 'Phids main. This way, when they side into more creature control to deal with the snakes, they're left with only Masticore as a target. In the side, I don't think Divert is really worth playing, as it will often end up as a bad Misdirection. I'd drop the Hibernations in favor of Submerge, a godly card against stompy and SF.
If I had to choose a side for your deck, it would probably be
4 FoF/Ophidian (whichever isn't main)
3 Submerge
3 Back to Basics
3 Chill
2 Phyrexian Furnace
All in all, I don't understand what you gain over a more traditional Forbiddian. It seems solid, but there is so much more it could be. You still have my best wishes.


By bogey on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:12 am:

just remember that hibernation also works against oath of druids (the card), so that would be another way of getting rid of it besides nevinyrral's disk.


By TracerBullet on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:27 am:

No, that just stalls for a turn. You have to remember that Oath will have ways of dealing with your card advantage engine while Oath is on the table, and you don't necessarily have one of dealing with theirs (wild research, Sylvan Library). Hibernation is definately not worth siding in against Oath, as there's nothing (almost always) that you'd like to take out for it. The only things you have available are Kegs, and then probably the early search, which sounds like a bad idea.


By bogey on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 12:54 pm:

but my reasoning is when they try to play oath or sylvan again, you counter it..


By BrianB, the Patron of Elves and Silly Combos (Brianb) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 01:26 pm:

Hibernation might work sometimes against oath, but overall, it's not a good bet. You'll have to be able to win the counterwar for it on the way back in. And in the case of sylvan library, if it even sticks for one turn, it'll hurt you. All in all, hibernation just isn't good enough to side in against oath. It's too situational and doesn't pack enough punch to discplace other cards in the deck--which brings you back to really needing more disk power to deal with threats on the board.


By Vesuvan (Vesuvan) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 06:00 am:

My opinion on the matter is to let Oath keep their Oath on the table. Back to Basics makes for a really 1-sided Morphling war.

The only modification I would have made to this deck after the PTQ (which I "scrubbed out of") would be to remove the Brainstorms and second Forbid to put the 3 Opts back in. Every time I drew one of these cards, an Opt would have carried the game, since it is card-selection and extra deck-motion). I would also probably take out the sideboarded Thwart for a Masticore and repalced the second Masti maindeck with a 3rd Morphling (or replaced a Thwart with the 3rd Morphling maindeck and kept the boarded Thwart).

I didn't have any trouble using Dust Bowls without Thaws at all. DB won me 1 game (not match) against The Herd, and another against Finkula. The things which lost it for me were stupid play errors (not putting counter on a Keg, etc) and my under-tested last-minute modifications to the deck. The sideboarded Diverts quite definitely did their job, providing an advantage in a counter-war, as well as making a mess of targetted spells such as Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares and Red Elemental Blast. You'd be surprised how difficult 2 spare mana can be to come by (though when I played against the people I tested the deck against, they played around it a bit better).


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