So Fiend's out.
Check out the Chop-Sui thread on MTGNews...Calibretto has an excellent Hatred-Suicide build that could work. ..
Or rather, how well would a Suicide Black deck do in today's extended environment ?
Running it w/out the Ritual seems a bit troublesome for me, but if you make it fast enough it could (maybe) stand a chance ?
I was thinking something like
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Contagion
2 Perish
2 Unmask
2 Stupor
4 Duress
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Vampiric Tutor
2 Phyrexian Furnace (meta-game call - been thinking about Planar Void, too)
4 Wasteland
2 Dust Bowl
16 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Masticores
4 Spinning Darkness
+ more...
Ideas, suggestions would be welcome...
I'd really like to make this a pretty competitive deck.
Although there's not a lot of extended action going on over here in Norway (where I live - bah!), I thought this could be done...
What about some creature enchancers. There is a danger of card disadvantage but Unholy Strenght is great (especially the one with pentagram).
This is the version of Suicide Black that I run...
CREATURES(20)
4 Carnophage
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Black Knight
4 Skittering Skirge
PUMP(8)
4 Unholy Strength
4 Sinister Strength
DISCARD(8)
4 Duress
4 Funeral Charm
REMOVAL(7)
4 Terror
3 Vendetta
LANDS(17)
17 Swamps
Cheap and simple deck. Your discard spells-stupor and unmask are not as good as Funeral Charm IMO. Charm kills annoying 1/1s, like birds, pumps your creatures, discards 1--it's good. I don't see any need for wastelands. Skirge is BB and anyway, the aim for this deck is to deal 20 ASAP. Thus, take out Contagion. Suicide wins on consistency. There are so many spells that are similair and do the same job. THere is no use for Vampiric Tutor to dig out any particular card. Take em out. Perish should remain on the SB and Good Call on the Furnace! Remember, at worst, they are a cantrip. Put them in!
Here's the version of Suicide that I play:
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Unmask
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Priest of Gix
4 Delraich
4 Culling the Weak
4 Hatred
4 Duress
18 Swamp
2 City of Traitors
The deck has the backup card of Delraich just in case, although it's just for fun. The Unmask is another problem card for the deck. Something like this wants as many cards in hand as possible, I know. The Culling the Weak really helps in the deck since it makes turn 3 Hatreds really easy to pull off (remember that you have to have another creature besides your attacking guy to use it). Turn 2 Hatred is possible but requires a God draw to do. Here's that: 1cc guy, 1 Hatred, 1 Priest of Gix, 1 Duress (just in case), 1 Culling the Weak, 1 Swamp, and 1 City of Traitors.
The original deck needs to be more aggressive (more like the last one). A faster clock will help you more than mediocre disruption. The stupors should go for sure, and maybe the unmasks, too. If you want to be cute and run a couple vampiric tutor, then you should run just one of the situationally handy cards like perish (and only that if you expect lots of greeen), contagion, and furnace. That makes room for 8 dauthis, which make great little beatsticks.
how about adding a splash of white for vindicate(not sure about this one), stp, gerrards verdict, disenchant etc?
If it doesnt have winter orb don`t bother.
I think that suicide black in general should be more threat based. I find that Tangle Wires works really, really good against a lot of decks. It's more or less a Time Walk and a half. Here is my deck. It is very focused on speed. Drop some good threats, then keep them helpless with Tangle Wire.
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Carnophage
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Sarcomancy
4 Black Knight
4 Duress
4 Tangle Wire
4 Tainted Pact
4 Unmask
4 Underground Sea
4 Underground River
4 Wasteland
6 Swamp
2 Rishadan Port
Sideboard
4 Chill
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Perish
3 Masticore
Chill is there to give you a great advantage over Sligh, which is otherwise your worst match up. Masticore is good against sligh, and just creature
decks in general, plus anti-black hosers like Light of Day.
I don't know about the Tainted Pacts. They've worked really good so far. It's good with Unmask, and Masticore, and is a really good top deck, but against control decks I would rather have Flesh Reaver in the maindeck.
I would advocate Snuff Out, Spinning Darkness, or Contagion over cards like Terror. Mana needs to be used to play threats early on, not reacting to their threats. Contagion is great for this.
Cursed Scroll can work great in suicide black, especially in Extended. Just replace the Tainted Pacts if you want.
Would replace Tanglewire with Unholy Strength, and chuck the Ports. Pact is excellent in this deck, its a cheap way to walk through lands
I've tried it with Unholy Strength instead of the Wire, and although a 4/3 first srike, pro white knight tends to rule the board, the Wires are actually really good against other creature decks, and, obviously, control. You should give them a shot. I didn't think that they were that good for suicide black until I tried them. I don't think they would work at all in the Hatred variants, but they're an MVP in my deck because mine is more of a black stompy than anything else. Unholy Strength is definetly worth consideration, but I don't like the card disadvantage they often lead to, unlike Rancor in Stompy.
Yeah, I wasn't too thrilled with the Ports either, but I could'nt think of a better non-basic land to put in as insurance against weak Pacts. As it is, I've never gotten less than 4 cards. You could probably replace them with just two more Swamps and not have too bad odds of getting a good pact, but I'm just a little paranoid about that sort of thing, because I have really bad luck.
The only advantage I can see is to surprise people who don't have SBs against black, though they may well have anti-fat.
You don't have Hymn to Tourach and Dark Ritual, Sinkhole, too. Things like Miracle Grow and Deuce seem okay as the aggro-control component of the format, so you have to ask if your black deck is better than these.
Black still has some aggro game, but it doesn't seem to be the suicide style. Many decks run Furnace, but black has many other ways to control the graveyard. Duress is still very good. Negator is still very good. Tainted Pact and Desperate Research are both quality search.
Sacromancy and Carnophage are both bad because they die to Fire/Ice and can be blocked by Elephant tokens. And they aren't good enough to scare Oath decks. Skittering Skirge and Dauthi Slayer are a little better.
I think the black aggro-control game somehow has to put one 2cc threat down, then follow up with targeted discard, graveyard control, and creature kill. All very well, but by definition there can be no focus. This strectches the tutoring ability of black to the extreme.
1.X includes Ice Age.
Run 4 Swamps and 4 Snow-Covered Swamps as Pact insurance.
From the points above, (and obviously misplaced in a suicide thread)
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Dauthi Slayers
3 Negator
1 Plague Spitter
4 Tainted Pact
4 Duress
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Recoil
3 Gravestorm
2 Vamparic Tutor
2 Planar Void
2 Funeral Charm
1 Yawgmoths Agenda
10 Swamps
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Islands
2 Cabal Pit
It doesn't make any difference if Pact stops after two swamps; youv'e just navigated past a mana glut so be happy. Its just the glue between the different pieces.
Untargeted discard isn't worth wasting time over; Funeral Charm is weak but its abiity to kill small threats just about makes it worthwhile.
Gravestorm actually does useful stuff allowing for a solid no graveyard policy. Given Elephants, Oath and AK, this is a good anyway.
So yeah, I think that the mana base should look like this.
4 Swamp
4 Underground sea
4 Wasteland
4 Snow-covered Swamp
3 Underground River
1 Cabal pit
Snow-covered Swamps! I never even thought about them. Very ingenious, Pernicious Dude. Cabal Pit is probably a good idea as well, but I like having 7 sources of blue, because I'm a little paranoid. But everyone else should cut 1 River for 1 Pit.
I can't imagine Recoil being worth it's spot, and the Agenda is just too slow and expensive.
No? Which is to say that you have a better one? Please, enlighten me.
Remember that in Type 1.5, dark ritual is neither banned or restricted. This post was originally about SuiBlack in 1.5, why no dark rits?
No, Phil. This post was originally about SuiBlack in extended (1.X).
Also, random comment: with a Hatred oriented deck (Magyk20), why not Crystal Vein over City of Traitors?
Is Peat Bog too slow for Extended? If you don't run a lot of one drops, the first turn disadvantage shouldn't be so bad.
Here is a suicide deck by Thomas van Heerden I saw on brainburst.com. It placed in the 5th-8th category at PTQ Osaka at Cape Town. It was the highest suicide black finisher of the decks listed. I've tried it out and had great success... the only changes I made were 4 bad moons instead of 4 sarcomancy and 2 Negators +1 Flesh Reaver instead of 3 Negators (didn't want to take my Negators out of other decks at the time =).
4 Carnophage
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Black Knight
4 Priest of Gix
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Duress
4 Unholy Strength
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Kaervek`s Spite
1 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
16 Swamp
SB
4 Bottle Gnomes
4 Perish
4 Coffin Purge
3 Gloom
No Scrolls?
Nope. He takes his kills like a man -- With Spite!
--T. Ray
There are two very good suicide cards in Torment and I've editted my suicide deck to fit them in..check it out..
CREATURES
4 Carnophage
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Skittering Skirge
TRICKS
4 Duress
4 Funeral Charm
4 Terror
4 Unholy Strength
2 Sinister Strength
2 Drain Life
LANDS
20 Swamps
I'm not sure about you guys, but when I play suicide, by the turn I've got my guys out in play, my lands do nothing at all! This can be changed by the new Torment Shade and Drain Life--Two good game-finishers! I'm considering Skittering Skirge... a 3/2 flyer is always good but the Shade and Fiend are extremely important to my deck--One is a superpumpable fella and the other is a creature-duress. If Skirge's gonna go then I'll put in Black Knights.
Tell me what you think of my somewhat mana-efficient variant of Suicide Black!
As both Powder Keg and Masticore can control this deck, try using Thrull Retainer instead for more reilience.
Does cabal ritual have a place in this deck type? I know it's not the original, but it still accelerates.
I really doubt it. Losing a card to get one extra mana on turn 2 is nothing special. It's pretty much worse than mox diamond, and mox diamond doesn't fit in suicide. By the time the threshold kicks in, a suicide deck doesn't need mana anyway. You never hoped to td a mid- or late-game dark ritual except maybe once in a while to cast hatred. It's a little extra juice for your shade or scroll I guess, but nothing really special. If you want a little extra on turn 2, the 2 mana lands are a fair option to get out 2B threats like negator and priest of gix (the PTQ list above uses this plan pretty effectively). As for the new cards, the nantuko shade is definitely a winner. I'm not sure if i like mesmeric fiend. A 1/1 body isn't much to write home about in an environment with a lot of creatures, and you have to keep him on the table or they get their card back. I guess we'll have to play it a bit to see.
The Fiend is a temporary Duress when you could have a permanent one,
and a 1/1 for 2 in a world of 2/2s for 1.
I'll pass.
Good point. Mesmeric Fiend is an excellent black creature, just like Faceless Butcher, just not good and appropriate in the aggro style of Suicide Black. Most of the time I find myself not attacking with fiend for the fear of the removed card being returned to it's owner's hand.
So Fiend's out.
Check out the Chop-Sui thread on MTGNews...Calibretto has an excellent Hatred-Suicide build that could work. ..
As Fiend can take a Masticore, a Keg or a Feeder, I wouldn't compare Fiend to Duress. Unfortunately the 2cc slots are full, and that does discount the fiend.
I played Suicide Black in Type 1, and at first glance thought this was a 1.5 post. In extended, you can't play with Dark Rit's acceleration and the brokeness of a Hymn. I don't think it would work out, even with adding Nantuko Shades. Cabal Ritual is too slow and sucks. The Extended field is currently all wrong for Sui anyway.