----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Tan"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:15 PM
Subject: [dci] Picking Butch's brain (libre naman) :)


> Would you humor a few questions, Butch?
>
> 1) Why is it that I've never opened a single tapper before, when they're all
> common? And my favored colors are blue and white.
>
> 2) Why is Prohibit suboptimal? I understand that in Constructed, you may go
> second and see your opponent play a 3-mana spell when you have 2 mana or a
> 4-mana spell when you have 3, but this was Sealed, and I thought even
> suboptimal counter ability can be handy. Moreover, I think kicker costs are
> not considered for Prohibit's 4-mana limit, right? What might I be missing?
>
> 3) For your 2 splashed black creatures, is 3 black mana sources enough? (The
> Richie Chua school of thought to avoid all splashed abilities and a third
> color severely disagrees with me, but I still have trouble with the land
> counts for 3-color decks.)
>
> 4) Why did you play Orim's Touch over Barrin's Unmasking?
>
> 5) What exactly are the strengths of the second deck? Isn't there a lack of
> removal? (I mean, would you play this because this isn't Masques with all
> the Walls or because you can hope to rush the opponent before some broken
> rare like that Nightscape Master or Breath of Darigaaz can clean the board?)
> Again, I'm probably so control-oriented that I played a B/G Sealed deck like
> a U/W deck last time...
>
> 6) Why isn't Lotus Guardian in the other decks? I mean, it's a 4/4 flyer...
>
> 7) What are the exact advantages of the last deck? I guess I mean that
> you're trading the use of either Master and the Armored Guardian for Hooded
> Kavu and the domain cards, and I'm not sure it's worth it. Or should you not
> worry about double-colored activations in a 4 or 5-color?
>
> 8) If the Dragon doesn't jive with the other cards, how far will you go to
> fit it in? Once, I saw Mario Padua pass over a Dragon (Darigaaz, I think) he
> opened. On the other hand, Richie Chua told me he'd start drafting green
> cards if he saw an opportunity to get two or more Dragons. (Blasted
> Dragons... last tournament, I saw most of the cast down to Tek, but they
> were all on the wrong end of the table!!!)
>
> 9) In hindsight, was the Worldly Counsel a bad idea since you don't expect
> to see Swamps early on? Or is Opt just simply good?
>
> 10) Should Tidal Visionary be played regardless of your deck (in Invasion
> Sealed)? I skipped it last tournament, siding it in only when I sided in
> White and an Acolyte, but I wondered if that was right.
>
> 11) If the game is stalemated and your opponent has an idle enchantment out
> (say an Elfhame Sanctuary), should you burn a Dismantling Blow with Kicker
> to draw cards or wait for another target? Would it make a difference what
> game it is and how much of the guy's deck you've seen, though he can side
> things in?
>
> 12) Faerie Conclave... or Faerie Squadron? :)
>
> 13) Do you remember the contest that Pokemon vs Magic thing was written for?
> All I remember was that the "finals" was between Mike Sianghio and me. :)
>
> 14) What do you mean Raffy is nervous? From what I saw at the Prerelease and
> his post-tourney e-mail, he opens really, really good rares!
>
> 15) Finally, you have a personal opinion on play or draw (strictly in
> Invasion Sealed)? Never got a full answer...
>
> Thanks for advancing my knowledge of Limited. :)
>
> Oscar
>
> PS -- Pahabal na tanong kay DeeJ. You drafted two Harrows in your 4-color
> winning deck, but why did you play with only one?
>
> > This was how I decided to build the 4-tapper deck...
> > (W/U/b)
> > 8 Plains
> > 6 Islands
> > 2 Swamps
> > 1 Salt Marsh
> >
> > 2x Benalish Trapper
> > Sunscape Master
> > Wayfaring Giant
> > Glimmering Angel
> > Capashen Unicorn
> > 2x Thornscape Apprentice
> > Tidal Visionary
> > Faerie Conclave
> > Goham Djinn
> > Phyrexian Slayer
> > 2x Galina's Knight
> > Armored Guardian
> > Lotus Guardian
> >
> > 2x Orim's Touch
> > Shackles
> > Dismantling Blow
> > Death or Glory
> > Prohibit
> > Worldly Counsel
> > Power Armor
> >
> > I admittedly wasn't that thrilled with my spells (2 Orim's Touch,
> > the
> > suboptimal Prohibit, the never-cast Death or Glory and Worldly
> > Counsel) while my creature base was solid although a bit top heavy
> > with six spells costing at least five (assuming Faerie Conclave as a
> > five-to-cast). In fact, I often sideboarded in two Barrin's Unmasking
> > for the Death or Glory and Worldly Counsel.
> >
> > For comparison, showing the cards I had to Mark Herrin and Jerome
> > Santos a day later, this was how they built the deck...
> >
> > Goham Djinn
> > Nightscape Master
> > Phyrexian Slayer
> > Firescreamer
> > Hate Weaver
> > Shivan Emissary
> > Ancient Kavu
> > Rogue Kavu
> > 2x Pouncing Kavu
> > 2x Hooded Kavu
> > Kavu Scout
> > Scarred Puma
> > Sulam Djinn
> > Kavu Climber
> > Nomadic Elf
> > Might Weaver
> > Power Armor
> > Harrow
> > Backlash
> > Fires of Yavimaya
> > Maniacal Rage
> > Aggressive Urge
> >
> > Yup, an 18-creature deck in R/b/g. More aggressive surely. You can
> > even bring in the Lotus Guardian and a Fertile Ground to make it go
> > faster. There's even a Tranquility in the sb to take care of
> > enchantments.
> >
> > And i know that if I show this to DeeJ or Harold, they would've
> > tried
> > to make this a five-color deck somehow since it has Harrow and
> > Fertile
> > Ground. The base would be white-green-blue (for the tappers and mana
> > diversity)
> >
> > Harrow
> > Fertile Ground
> > Armadillo Cloak
> > Fires of Yavimaya
> > Shackles
> > Dismantling Blow
> >
> > Wayfaring Giant
> > Glimmering Angel
> > 2x Benalish Trapper
> > Sunscape Apprentice
> > 2x Thornscape Apprentice
> > Tidal Visionary
> > Goham Djinn
> > Phyrexian Slayer
> > Hate Weaver
> > Nightscape Apprentice
> > Shivan Emissary
> > Kavu Scout
> > 2x Hooded Kavu
> > Sulam Djinn
> > Nomadic Elf
> > Might Weaver
> >
> > I couldn't even imagine the mana configuration of this one. :-0

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 10:43 AM
Subject: [dci] Re: Picking Butch's brain (libre naman) :)


> --- In p***i@o***s.com, "Oscar Tan" wrote:
> > Would you humor a few questions, Butch?
>
> Okay Suacks - I can't truncate this because I'm answering questions
> ok? Maybe others would also like to put in their two cents' worth in
> the relevant spots...
> >
> > 1) Why is it that I've never opened a single tapper before, when
> they're all common? And my favored colors are blue and white.
>
> It's just probabilities...
>
> > 2) Why is Prohibit suboptimal? I understand that in Constructed,
> you
> may go second and see your opponent play a 3-mana spell when you have
> 2 mana or a 4-mana spell when you have 3, but this was Sealed, and I
> thought even suboptimal counter ability can be handy. Moreover, I
> think kicker costs are not considered for Prohibit's 4-mana limit,
> right? What might I be missing?
>
> It's just me I suppose. You're right that Prohibit's effectiveness
> becomes lower when going second. And yes kicker costs aren't counted.
> I'm playing around with Prohibit in Constructed actually (as a sort
> of
> splash toss-up between Counterspell and Thwart/Foil and somewhat
> works
> well with Rethink). As I said, i'm just not a big fan of it but
> you're
> right - a counter is a counter.
>
> > 3) For your 2 splashed black creatures, is 3 black mana sources
> enough? (The Richie Chua school of thought to avoid all splashed
> abilities and a third color severely disagrees with me, but I still
> have trouble with the land counts for 3-color decks.)
>
> Then you should check with champion DeeJ and the great Harold Sy who
> routinely go four or five colors in Limited. Three sources are
> more than enough for the two black creatures. That was never the
> issue
> for me in fact. Getting to four and six mana was...
>
> > 4) Why did you play Orim's Touch over Barrin's Unmasking?
>
> Small and very easily killed creatures...you'd want to keep them
> alive. Also, preventing four damage for two mana buys some time.
>
> > 5) What exactly are the strengths of the second deck? Isn't there a
> lack of removal? (I mean, would you play this because this isn't
> Masques with all the Walls or because you can hope to rush the
> opponent before some broken rare like that Nightscape Master or
> Breath
> of Darigaaz can clean the board?)
> > Again, I'm probably so control-oriented that I played a B/G Sealed
> deck like a U/W deck last time...
>
> It's a rush deck where cards like Hate Weaver and Hooded Kavu will
> star (some evasion). It's also got some beef. You hopefully can put
> down enough creatures in the first six turns to overwhelm slow foes.
>
> > 6) Why isn't Lotus Guardian in the other decks? I mean, it's a 4/4
> flyer...
>
> Call it superstition but I've never won or placed highly in
> tournaments where I played the 4/4 BoP. And it's seven mana to cast.
> In a rush deck, things should be over by then.
>
> > 7) What are the exact advantages of the last deck? I guess I mean
> that you're trading the use of either Master and the Armored Guardian
> for Hooded Kavu and the domain cards, and I'm not sure it's worth it.
> Or should you not worry about double-colored activations in a 4 or
> 5-color?
>
> Of course you still will worry about double-colored activation and
> casting costs. I prefer evasion often over abilities.
>
> > 8) If the Dragon doesn't jive with the other cards, how far will
> you
> go to fit it in? Once, I saw Mario Padua pass over a Dragon
> (Darigaaz,
> I think) he opened. On the other hand, Richie Chua told me he'd start
> drafting green cards if he saw an opportunity to get two or more
> Dragons. (Blasted Dragons... last tournament, I saw most of the cast
> down to Tek, but they were all on the wrong end of the table!!!)
>
> As I said, take Dragons if you open them in the first two packs. For
> the third pack, you must already be solidifying unless you're already
> well set in your deck that you can afford to counterdraft (as in you
> can't deal with the damn thing if it comes out). But Richie's
> probably
> a better drafter than me.
>
> > 9) In hindsight, was the Worldly Counsel a bad idea since you don't
> expect to see Swamps early on? Or is Opt just simply good?
>
> Yup...got that right. Opt is really better.
>
> > 10) Should Tidal Visionary be played regardless of your deck (in
> Invasion Sealed)? I skipped it last tournament, siding it in only
> when
> I sided in White and an Acolyte, but I wondered if that was right.
>
> Tidal Visionary is always a starter in blue since it fizzles
> most black removal.
>
> > 11) If the game is stalemated and your opponent has an idle
> enchantment out (say an Elfhame Sanctuary), should you burn a
> Dismantling Blow with Kicker to draw cards or wait for another
> target?
> Would it make a difference what game it is and how much of the guy's
> deck you've seen, though he can side things in?
>
> It depends. If you have no threats and need to draw some cards, go
> ahead. Now if you wanna save it for a Tek or Lotus Guardian that
> you've seen (or even one of the Attendants), that would be better.
> Since late game, the Elfhame Sanctuary wouldn't actually help much
> anymore. As u said, it's situational.
>
> > 12) Faerie Conclave... or Faerie Squadron? :)
>
> Oops...
>
> > 13) Do you remember the contest that Pokemon vs Magic thing was
> written for? All I remember was that the "finals" was between Mike
> Sianghio and me. :)
>
> Yup...did you ever get your prize?
>
> > 14) What do you mean Raffy is nervous? From what I saw at the
> Prerelease and his post-tourney e-mail, he opens really, really good
> rares!
>
> Yeah...I saw what he got. I always get crappy tradables but solid
> playable cards which I'd rather have. Raffy looks so nervous. Shook
> his hand once after we played and it was so cold. And honestly, he
> has
> perfected that "deer trapped in headlights" look.
>
> > 15) Finally, you have a personal opinion on play or draw (strictly
> in Invasion Sealed)? Never got a full answer...
>
> I play most of the time but when playing four or five colors, I opt
> to draw.

----- Original Message -----
From: DJinn
To: p***i@o***s.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [dci] Picking Butch's brain (libre naman) :)


----- Original Message -----
From: Oscar Tan
To: p***i@o***s.com
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:15 PM
Subject: [dci] Picking Butch's brain (libre naman) :)


>Would you humor a few questions, Butch?

Pardon me for taking the liberty to take a crack at this myself =).

>2) Why is Prohibit suboptimal? I understand that in Constructed, you may go
>second and see your opponent play a 3-mana spell when you have 2 mana or a
>4-mana spell when you have 3, but this was Sealed, and I thought even
>suboptimal counter ability can be handy. Moreover, I think kicker costs are
>not considered for Prohibit's 4-mana limit, right? What might I be missing?

I think it boils down to bias =). I personally think that Prohibit is great. And yes, Kicker costs aren't counted.

Then again, it could be the fact that it's not a cantrip. I used to not be a big fan of cantrips but I'm beginning to see the light; I maindecked an Aggressive Urge over an Explosive Growth and I was disappointed everytime I cast Prohibit or Orim's Cure (in Sealed) that they didn't have a 'draw a card' effect. =)

>3) For your 2 splashed black creatures, is 3 black mana sources enough? (The
>Richie Chua school of thought to avoid all splashed abilities and a third
>color severely disagrees with me, but I still have trouble with the land
>counts for 3-color decks.)

That should be enough. In a 'strict' 3-color deck, I only play with two-sources for two spells. I guess the fact that they're creatures merits the 3rd source.

Of course in a 5c deck, 2 spells probably translates to 1 source. =)

>4) Why did you play Orim's Touch over Barrin's Unmasking?

One play's Orim's Touch to protect one's T(r)appers.

>7) What are the exact advantages of the last deck? I guess I mean that
>you're trading the use of either Master and the Armored Guardian for Hooded
>Kavu and the domain cards, and I'm not sure it's worth it. Or should you not
>worry about double-colored activations in a 4 or 5-color?

The last deck is crap! (j/k) =). I assume those are STORMscape Apprentices and not THORNscape Apprentices in both the original deck and the last deck? (Btw, Stormscape Apprentices are also known as "Nicks", Thornscapes as "DJs" and Benalish Trappers as "Butches" =) ).

I wouldn't bother with the red creatures; I'd actually stick pretty much to the Blue/White of the original deck and just put in Harrow, Nomadic Elf, Sulam Djinn, Fires of Yavimaya and Army Cloak for Capashen Unicorn, Worldly Counsel, 1 Orim's Touch and the two black creatures (or Death and Glory), which makes it a "solid" 3-color deck with only 1 spell splashed in a 4th color =).

>8) If the Dragon doesn't jive with the other cards, how far will you go to
>fit it in? Once, I saw Mario Padua pass over a Dragon (Darigaaz, I think) he
>opened. On the other hand, Richie Chua told me he'd start drafting green
>cards if he saw an opportunity to get two or more Dragons. (Blasted
>Dragons... last tournament, I saw most of the cast down to Tek, but they
>were all on the wrong end of the table!!!)

Speaking of solid 3-color decks, I played with Crosis in my W/U/g deck with just a Harrow to support it. I had actually preferred to play with a Llanowar Elite in my final creature slot but everybody else (well, just Mario and 1 other guy I forget actually) seemed to think the off-color Dragon was the better idea.

Of course, the multicolor-green drafter ALWAYS drafts a Dragon, whatever it's colors might be =). Then also, even if you're not McG, you might still get an Attendant of the correct type passed to you =).

>9) In hindsight, was the Worldly Counsel a bad idea since you don't expect
>to see Swamps early on? Or is Opt just simply good?

Well he actually has a higher chance of getting a swamp before he gets the Worldly Counsel =), but I find that a Worldly Counsel for two is decent enough, just like a Tribal Flames or Exotic Curse for two (Strength of Unity for two isn't worth it though =) ).

Then again, I never bother with Worldly Counsel =).

>10) Should Tidal Visionary be played regardless of your deck (in Invasion
>Sealed)? I skipped it last tournament, siding it in only when I sided in
>White and an Acolyte, but I wondered if that was right.

Well for most of us top-heavy guys, a Tidal Visionary at least lowers your average converted mana cost. And you always play with it against black, and you play with it when your opponent has protection from your colors, and you play with it when.... well, I guess you always play with it. =)

>11) If the game is stalemated and your opponent has an idle enchantment out
>(say an Elfhame Sanctuary), should you burn a Dismantling Blow with Kicker
>to draw cards or wait for another target? Would it make a difference what
>game it is and how much of the guy's deck you've seen, though he can side
>things in?

When you're down to zero cards and draw a Dismantling Blow, you cast it on your own Fertile Ground to draw two cards, so yes, I would do so in the above situation.

>12) Faerie Conclave... or Faerie Squadron? :)

I was going to post a reply saying he should've been disqualified. =)

>15) Finally, you have a personal opinion on play or draw (strictly in
>Invasion Sealed)? Never got a full answer...

Play with two-colors, draw with 3+. =) Though I've actually played with a multicolor-green deck before that had 3 Quirion Sentinels and 2 Army Cloaks since it was bottom heavy.

>PS -- Pahabal na tanong kay DeeJ. You drafted two Harrows in your 4-color
>winning deck, but why did you play with only one?

Long story =)

I originally traded in the Fertile Ground for a 17th land. I was going to play with 16 plus the FG but my mana computation (which is top secret by the way; I think I'm the only one who uses a calculator to compute lands =) ) told me I should play with 8 Forests, 5 Plains, 1.5 Islands and 1.5 Mountains. I didn't want to play with just one of each considering that I had creatures in those colors as opposed to just spells and I didn't want to choose which to play 1 of and which to play 2 of so I played with 2 of each bringing my land count up to 17 and bumping off the FG.

I was also unhappy with just playing 5 plains though, but I didn't want to trade in a Forest for another Plains either so I wanted to put in the Fertile Ground. However, the only thing worth considering taking out was the Aggressive Urge. Harold was arguing that I had two Harrows anyway so I don't need the Fertile Ground, to which I argued that Fertile Ground is an important two-drop. I ended up leaving the FG out and it was only when I was actually shuffling that it sank into my head that I did have two Harrows and that I could trade in one of them for the Fertile Ground; I think I had to get my decklist back and change it =).

And it was 5-color, not 4 =); though I only played with 4 basic land types. I did side into 6 plains and 1 each Island, Mountain and Swamp in my 3rd game against Eric after seeing that Duskwalker and thinking I couldn't afford to not have black mana when the Exotic Curse or Sterling Grove are available to be cast.


DeeJ


P.S. Yes, I noticed that my post didn't have enough paragraph breaks, but that was when it was actually posted; I'm not much of a writer after all. If you want, I'll send all of my Tourney Reports to you first so you can edit them. =)