And I would say most long-time t1 players don't keep a t2 deck handy. Really the only thing most older players get out of packs is the fun of busting them open, and you don't get that out of proxies anyway, so it shouldn't affect that either.
The type 1 tourney scene is in serious need of sort of revitalization. I don't think there has been a type 1 tourney here in San Diego since Alliances. I followed the previous thread here that dealt with the reprint issue, and although I would be first in line to purchase reprinted power cards, I don't think it would be a good idea for Wizards to do so. I'll leave that debate, however, for another time.
What I want to do now is offer some suggestions (most of which were given in the reprint thread) that would help revitalize the IRL type 1 scene. My ultimate goal is to get some sort of petition to the DCI concerning the topics that I'll discuss here.
My suggestion, The Proxy Nine Rule: This rule would allow players to use up to 9 proxied cards in sanctioned type 1 tournies. Why 9 cards, why not 8 or 10? Well most magic players are familiar with the power 9. Most newer player do not have access to those particular cards and revere them to such a degree that they would almost certainly include those 9 cards as proxies in their Vintage decks if this rule were to come into being. Please note that this rule allows for the ANY 9 cards to be proxied, not just the power 9. For instance one could have 3 Juzam Djinn, 2 Mana Drain, 1 Black Lotus, 1 Library of I Win, 2 Mountain Goats as their allowable proxies.
Well if we're going to allow proxies, why not just allow 60 card proxy decks? Personally, I don't want to go to a type 1 tourney and play against someone with a 60 card deck of basic plains and Sharpie ink. From Wizards point of view, this would also be undesirable, as someone could potentially buy zero actual magic cards while still participating in sanctioned type 1 tournaments. Setting the limit at 9 cards allows players access to any practically inattainable out of print card, while still requiring the player to have a significant number of actual cards.
Another downside for Wizards is that an older player could theoretically continue to play with new magic cards in their type 1 decks without purchasing a single card. Any player with all the current OOP cards is one example. He could use his keeper deck, per se, and just proxy new cards like Holisitc Wisdom, Skeletal Scrying, etc. as needed. If this were the case, a proxy list could be developed where proxy cards could only come from this list. This list may be a bit too much *work* for Wizards to come up with, but Wizards' current list of Reserve cards (cards they stated would never be reprinted) could easily serve as a Proxy list.
Why does this need to become an official DCI rule for sanctioned events rather than just some "local" thing? Lets face it, most people here don't really care about their Vintage rating. They don't care about going to sanctioned type 1 tournies, they just want to go to a type 1 tournament. So why does the DCI need to adopt this? In my opinion, in order for this to gain widespread acceptance, wide enough that it will affect you, the DCI needs to adopt this as an official Vintage deck construction rule. I mean local shops not offering sanctioned events could potentially allow any deck construction rule they want, but they don't, they usually adhere to the official format dictated by the DCI.
Next suggestion: Allow Collectors Edition cards in sanctioned tournaments. Although this would allow for a sizable infusion of power cards into the available card pool, I believe that this solution is just a quick fix. A few years down the road, type 1 will be facing the same dilema as CE cards become scarce or hoarded or overpriced or all of the above. Nevertheless, I belive that this is a viable suggestion and should also be potentially pushed for.
Aside from and independent sanctioning body or a massive type 1 reprint (both of which I think are highly unlikely) I believe that these suggestions offer the most promise for revitalizing the type 1 scene. I haven't gone into how these changes would affect card prices, however, and this one ripple could potentially be the reason why these suggestions would not be adopted.
Opinions, suggestions? I'd like to keep this thread off of the reprint issue and on more practical (read: easy for Wizards to do) ideas.
I think it would be a great idea for Wizards to do that for us... unfortunately, our goal would be to convince Wizards why this would be a good (not just easy) thing for them to do. I fear that we'd have to show them numbers before they'll be on our side. Of course, one of these ideas might finally hit one of them as being a great way to bring back the estranged Magic players that the game has lost over the years. Cheers,
jim
its like organising a poker tourney when a nine of diamonds costs 300 bucks evrywhere , then wondering why nobody shows up.
reprint the cards with gold borders, or type one aint going anywhere.
Good idea...It's hard to discuss this without discussing reprinting, however, one area of question would be the fact that proxies would almost nessecitate the use of card protectors ( as would the use of CE cards).
Alas, I think it still would get down to WoTC just being too stubborn to change or adopt any policy that it didn't come up with on it's own (DCI as well). I really think we nead a new independant sanctioning organization which is not affiliated with WoTC.
Andy T.---reprint duals---
Yeah...I pretty much felt the same way. Though the tournaments I'm holding arent sanctioned, it definetly put a surge of interest into people around here.
" Wow, I can play with moxes, and a lotus?!?"
Heres a link to my thread:
http://www.bdominia.com/discus/messages/7/22733.shtml?1011948449
One thing that WoTC needs to understand is that people who play magic like different aspects of the game. Based on those preferences, people have preferred formats. As an owner of the p10, I wouldn't mind if proxies for P10, reprints, or collecters edition were allowed in T1.
T1 is about fluidity, speed, and just general brokenness. To me thats just fun.
I don't think Wizards need to worry much about losing purchase volume from t1 old timers, who that has most of the t1 cards buys packs?!?!? If there's a good card in the set you just trade or buy singles (which Wizards gets no money from).
I play T1. I still buy packs. I enjoy a good draft, or sealed deck. I even admit to always having a T2 build ready in my deck box.
Actually, I would say alot of T1 players still buy more than your average T2 player. Look at it this way...
Average MTG player is like 13-17, who the hell has that much money to buy cards at that age? Its been so long for me, Ive forgotten what Its like to be like, oh man I cant use those cards because I dont have that kinda of money. I am 24, have a good job, bills to pay, live in girlfriend, and still I find myself buying about 2 boxes each expansion.
My point would be to throw us older players with the money a bone.
Sealed/Draft are fun, but you don't proxy in sealed/draft tourneys, do you?
And I would say most long-time t1 players don't keep a t2 deck handy. Really the only thing most older players get out of packs is the fun of busting them open, and you don't get that out of proxies anyway, so it shouldn't affect that either.
We should have a poll because I am curious.
I know everyone at NG has T2 stuff. Matt D'Avanzo played in states, as did Legend, etc.
But did they get it because they wanted to play with it? Or did they buy/trade for fun?
poxies are a great idea actually. type B treid to do something like that but since it was developed on some college campus, my guess is that it didn't have the rescources to make a "new dci". i'd sign a petition or write a letter or whatever...
i play type 1, have ancestral, walk, and pearl. don't but packs, and don't have a type 2 deck.... although i think i'm going to make one
I hate to say it, but I think there's more hope of them reprinting the cards than of ever allowing proxies. Their arguments about hurting card value are BS, there just aren't that many old cards out there, so there just aren't that many people to piss off. I'd like to see a decent poll of Type1 players, and their thoughts about a reprint. People can always say "anyone who spent the money for those cards will quit!", but that is just not what I hear from most of the people I've talked to.
If you didn't have to own the cards in order to play with them, wizards would make no money, and the effect on existing cards values might be about the same as a reprint. I'd really like everyone to take two steps back and realize just how utterly ABSURD it is to even be put in a position where proxies are a valid alternative to real cards. It's disgusting if you think about it, isn't it.
But then again, I'm actually for it. If it were possible to make a renegade DCI-like organization that supported proxies, I'd be in there all the way, waving a flag like that guy in the Anarchist artwork. Thing is, I can't help but think that wizards would use some kind of legal wrangling to bring it down. They have a monopoly on magic, I can't see them sitting idly by while folks are out having fun playing with cards that wizards didn't print or sell. How many hundreds of years until their copyright is up? It's too bad they couldn't allow open copyright on the magic system, kind of how the D20 D&D system works now. I wouldn't even care if only WotC cards were DCI legal, I'd like the option to play in other leagues with other types of cards! Who's with me?
IMO it's become so obvious that they just won't listen to players. The most you can expect is a massive Rosewater rant where he spells out why his policies are perfect and can't ever change. If I had millions of dollars, I'd blow a whole ton of it just to buy them out and make them listen to me. I'd probably send the company down the toilet, and then again maybe not. Either way it'd be worth it to prove a point.
Then again, if I had millions, I could buy 4 of every card ever made, AND a good printing press to make whatever cards I wanted!
-HengeWolf
BTW, if you've ever seen the absurd length of my reprint thread, I just want everyone to know that I will not be dragged back into a discussion of that magnitude . . . no matter how tempting it might be.
yeah....reprint thread....mmmmmm....better than donuts....and I'm a cop....
Andy T.--reprint duals--